Fulton 1

After many years of having it on my bucket list, I finally attended a driving school locally last month. The wife attended as well and we both enjoyed it a great deal. I don't currently own a car that I was willing to track so we both rented school cars - mine was a little Cobalt SS and the wife's was a Lotus Exige. This was a one-day school and all driving sessions were done with a coach/instructor in the vehicle.

Last week we went back for a lapping day, which consisted of three longer (30+ minutes each) sessions. First was with an instructor and then, when they felt we were ready, they allowed us to solo for the rest of the day. This time I rented a Miata and the wife, again, used the school Lotus.

At the end of the day we hung around and talked with some of the instructors and a couple of the more advanced drivers about 'next steps'. The general consensus was that it was time to pick up a car of our own. Most of the guys there spoke highly of the older BMWs (E30/E36) and Miatas as good beginner cars - explaining that they were less expensive initially, cheaper on consumables, and good learning platforms. All the research I've done since then echoes these sentiments for the most part. However, reading various threads here and elsewhere I see lot of knowledgeable folks suggest going right to a more purpose-built racecar like what I could find from, say, Phoenix or similar. This makes a lot of sense to me as well, but I’m assuming that this advice is geared more toward someone intending to race more seriously down the road. Unless something really changes for me, I do not envision this being more than a hobby (I get the sneaking suspicion that is a naïve comment, but it’s how I feel right now so I don’t want to lie to myself). I’m thinking 7/10ths at most and maybe 4-5 lapping days a year would be my target. Also, we’d want to make this a family thing so the wife and I would have to share the car. Finally, while the car would not be a daily driver, I would prefer to drive it to and from the track (~ 150 miles round trip) if possible. I do have a tow vehicle, but would need a car trailer if I wanted to tow something non-streetable to the track – do-able, but not my preference. So, with this in mind I’ve started a search for a track vehicle.

Having been a "GM guy" all my life I've acquired a decent familiarity with the LSx platform, many unique and/or specialized tools, tuning/diagnostic software, service manuals, etc., that immediately biases me in that direction. Additionally, I have a small network of parts sources and reputable local shops that I trust for GM work. On the other hand I have no experience with the Euro cars and very little with the Asians beyond basic maintenance type stuff (the exception being Subarus, which I have owned in the past and found easy to work on and modify).

I've owned a couple of C4s over the years, but do not currently own a Corvette. Again, for one reason or another nothing I own currently I would really consider tracking – either because I don’t want to risk damaging it, rely on it as a daily driver, or, as is the case with my ’05 GTO, I want something that isn’t starting from a major disadvantage.

One option that jumped out at me was a C5 ZO6. While I haven’t done more than peruse various classifieds and autotrader ads it sure looks like a great bang for the buck option and there seem to be some nice examples out there. I imagine as the C7 comes closer to fruition more C5s will make their way onto dealer lots at reasonable prices.

In addition to the recommendations above and the C5, the Pontiac Solstice GXP crossed my mind, but I haven’t found many good examples for sale. Honda S2000 is another name that comes up a lot. Actually, I really enjoyed the little Cobalt SS that I rented, but I feel it’d be better to learn on a more traditional RWD platform (am I off base on that?).

No matter what, though, I keep coming back to the C5Z. It just seems like it’s a great combination of bang-for-the-buck, parts availability, aftermarket support, familiarity, and capability. Actually, one of my main concerns is that it would be TOO capable. Both of us are used to cars with power on the street and, I believe, have enough discipline to not get in over our heads at the track. Also, I have been digesting the wonderful sticky and would start with the car as stock as possible to get a feel for it and then make upgrades only as warranted.

This has gotten more long-winded than I had intended, but I feel it’s important to be thorough about my background and my goals when asking for advice. Bottom line, I am leaning toward a C5Z, this would be a hobby for me only – not for timed events, T1 , etc., the wife and I would be sharing the car (which would mean seat adjustment, etc., since she’s 5’2” and I’m 6’ tall), and I’d prefer to drive it to and from the track (although it does not have to be a DD). Am I on the right track here? Totally off-base and/or over-thinking it (I’ve been told “just go out and have fun and learn”, but my inner Boy Scout wants to be prepared)?

Any advice/experience/thoughts are appreciated. Feel free to shoot down any faulty assumptions that I’ve made as well. I want to learn from those that have gone before me

68sixspeed

c5z06 is a a great bang for the buck, reliable motor, enough HP to get in trouble but not so much that it's a time-bomb, and cheap consumables- brakes/pads are available and cheap and lots of upgrade possiblities.

c4cruiser

You should also consider a FRC as an alternative to a Z06. Finding a Z51-equipped FRC will give you a good platform and with a few mods, it could turn into being just as fast as a Z06. You didn't say what your starting budget is, but once we are through Fall, you should be able to find a FRC in the $9K to $10K range.

I would suggest starting out with good street tires, some high performance brake pads and do a 3-4 HPDE events. Then over the winter you can build a plan to mod the car. Better seats, a harness, and some suspension upgrades would be a good start after some events.

All FRC's came with the 6-speed trans and there are lots of aftermarket pieces for any C5 FRC or even a coupe.

As far as towing, there are open trailers out there in the $1K range that will work fine for a C5. Add a tire rack for slicks and that will be a great starting point. With an open trailer, any decent half-ton pickup will work for towing. With a Class III hitch, a trailer brake controller, maybe a set of air bags or overload springs, and make sure the brakes are in good shape and you're good to go.

Also ask some of the same questions in the Pacific Northwest section of the Forum. We have a number of track junkies in that section who will happily provide help and suggestions over there. You probably know there are 5 great tracks within a day's drive in WA and OR and Thunderhill is an easy overnight trip.

RDnomorecobra

if you are familiar with GM and have tools etc you are right on in thinking c5-something. FRC a bit cheaper initially as stated above. z06's starting high teens at this point. Nice black one in the c5 for sale section right now for 19k.

crease-guard

Last year I bought a C5 Z06 that was track prepped meaning the interior was gutted, then caged, race seats, harness, trans and diff coolers, cool suit system, AFFF fire system, 18 inch forgelines and Brembo brakes. All engine and suspension were stock. Anything that didn't make the car stop or go was removed to lighten it.

They had two of them, one white and one red. I bought the white one, red one still for sale. I paid 15k for the white one as the guy wanted more for the red one. Red one has a fresh LS3 and tranny.

If you are interested, drop me a PM and I can give you more info. Car is located in Texas. It is NOT prepped to race in NASA or SCCA as the cage is not a "legal" cage for those governing bodies. But it is a cage.

Jay

ps forgot to mention is does have an upgraded radiator with the integrated oil cooler.

ErnieN85

C5Z06 is the way to go

AU N EGL

C5Z without ENGINE modifications is a great start.

or

C5 coupe with manual transmission with stock or Z51 suspension. ( no engine modifications )

2002 to 2004 would be a good choice to


Good Luck

95jersey

Loved my 01 C5Z as a track car, used it for 5-6 years with great success.

argonaut

I have a similar perspective in that its just a hobby for me with no aspirations of being the fastest or driving beyond 8/10ths. I've been doing this for 5 years, about 12-15 days per and have used a couple different cars and have always driven to the track. So pretty similar when you consider that even 4-5 days with both you and wife running would equate to 8-10 days in terms of wear on the car.

If budget is not a major concern then the C5 platform would be a great choice. It is indeed one of the best bang-for-the-buck cars available and capable of running with much more modern equipment. But it is a relatively expensive car to run, especially when you get to the usage your talking about. Speed costs money...its a fact. No matter what car you run this hobby is expensive but a Vette is on the higher end of the scale. It uses brakes and tires at a prodigious rate and requires a lot of $ to keep it reliable (cooling being a major issue).

If you decide on a C5 then ideally finding a well set-up for the track, street legal one would be the way to go rather than a bone stock one. That way you would avoid all the 'must have' mods and just be faced with the consumables and routine maintenance. They do come up for sale on this forum from time to time.

Cars like the Miata and E36 have very similar aftermarket support and both are hugely popular (lots of guys at track days equal lots of help when needed) but are quite a bit cheaper to run (also slower). They don't call it the 'corvette tax' for nothing. I have cetainly had those days when I've looked at my CC statement and been ready to sell it lock, stock and barrel just to cut my losses.

A minor consideration you might also have is your location - lots of rain in the NW. Talk to 10 corvette drivers and 8 of them will tell you they don't drive in the rain. Its not the easiest car to manage what with rear drive and big HP. Miata = much easier rain car.

Lots of things to consider. HTH, Brad

crease-guard

I will agree with the above poster, it is a difficult car to drive in the rain but that doesn't stop me. All the more challenging to drive in the rain especially on the track I run at, very very slick when wet so you learn car control at an accelerated rate.

Not having owned any other cars mentioned, the C5 does take it's toll on the wallet when that time comes. Stuff breaks and it's the labor to fix it more than anything. If you can do your own wrenching, you'll save some bucks. But some things just need a pro to do, at least for me...I know my limitations.

Tires, go with scrubs, they are $100 each and there are a couple of vendors that usually have a nice supply. Just got 4 or 5 sets here recently as the price was right but you will burn through tires as you get faster.

Brakes are another. I dropped $3600 on a complete overhaul this year. All 4 calipers rebuilt, all pads replaced with PFC01 compound and high end Rotors for the fronts. Pad and rotor wear last much much longer with the race type setup. If you use stock stuff, it wears very quickly so you pay eventually. I can change pads and rotors now very easily, I just pull out the tool box and the stuff just jumps off the car by itself

BUT....there is nothing more fun than pushing for a quicker lap time or catching the guy in the $150,000 Porsche in your $15,000 corvette and passing him because you are quicker through the corners than he is. Best money spent is getting someone who knows what they are doing sitting in your passenger seat to teach you.

Jay

sothpaw2

I am pretty much doing what you want to do. HPDE 3 events a year, drive to and from the track in a C5Z. I have only a few mods to keep costs at minimum: brake pads, ducts, ss lines, ss pistons, ti shields; sway bars and new stock-like (2004) shocks; oil cooler; Nitto R-II or Nitto NT01 tires.

Buying something from Phoenix would mean towing always as it's not street legal. Ask yourself if you want to drive this thing on the street occasionally and if you want even more performance than a factory C5Z will provide. The T1 car is for folks happy to tow who do this often (hence the tow vehicle is worth it) and want mega performance. Also, most people above the novice groups tow because it is a nightmare to get the car (and you) back from a long distance with no tow vehicle. For this reason I usually go to tracks close by; do you have one or 2 of those??

I think the C5Z or a C5 coupe or FRC are all good choices if the car you like to drive is RWD and something that you can learn to slide (the rear) with a good power to weight ratio. Downside (compared to a Miata or well prepped Mini Cooper or VW GLS or Honda S2000 even Toyota Celica): it costs more to run (brakes and gas) and it's heavier so not really "tossable". Driving corvette is about throttle management and discipline in using your immense power. The others are not so throttle oriented and would be a different experience (I've never tried though as only by USA).

Think about what kind of driving "feel" you really want the car to have and how fast do you really want to be once you've done 6-8 events.

Good luck!

Andy

93Rubie

Not going to disagree with the C5Z06 and FRC recommendations from above, but if you want to to this on the cheap just to test the waters to see if you REALLY want to get into it more.

There is already modified for track use C4's about 4 or so floating around here on CF, all for less than 10K. Parts are common, and the aftermarket is rich. Not C5/C6 rich, but still WELL supported.

Since you've owned them in the past you should be familiar with them.

At this point they would be faster than you. Heck, unless your a pro, ANY car is faster than you, regardless of how fast you THINK you are.(That goes for everybody.) A C4 is faster and has more potential than a Miata or similar ride.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Rob31

I have seen two Cobalt SS run times real close to mine . actually a little quicker .
Good car for the Mrs. also

Fulton 1

Thank you all for the great feedback. This gives me a lot to digest, but it sounds like I'm generally on the right track.

c4cruiser,
I've seen a couple of 99-00 FRCs for relatively cheap. I've sort of gravitated to the ZO6, though, just to avoid some of the early LS1 gremlins. I had a '00 SS Camaro that had the sticking oil pump check valve problem. Also, I'm just more comfortable with the LS6 in general (thinking updated block, PCV setup, timing chain, and the better intake and heads, etc) and would be willing to pay a premium for it so that I can focus on some of the other prep that I know any of these cars is going to need.

Great info on the trailer and PNW forum. Will definitely look into both. Every time I've been to Pacific Raceways I've seen at least a couple of C6's there (no C5's or C4's yet, but I have a limited sample). One gentleman had his beautiful C6 ZR1 out there last time we were there.

Jay,
Thanks for the PM on the racecar in TX. I will follow up with you on that. Seems intriguing.

argonaut/sothpaw,
Thank you both for your personal experiences. It's nice to see that I'm not off the reservation in my approach. I know that this may escalate into something more, but at this stage I don't think so. I realized just after a month between outings that I was already rusty again. Took a few laps for me to get back up to speed. I do think part of that was the transition in cars (moving from a FWD Cobalt with some upgrades and race seats to a bone stock RWD Miata complete with 'greasy' street tires and soft suspension I'm sure didn't help). I tend to be a perfectionist and wasn't happy with my performance initially so I spoke to one of the instructors about it. He reassured me that this was common since I'm on the steep end of the learning curve. My next couple of sessions were much more rewarding and by the end of the day I felt really good about having made progress. I suppose, like many things, this is a perishable skill so hitting it at least once-a-month at least during the fair weather months seems smart while keeping costs reasonable (hopefully). Additionally, the closest track to me is a three hour round trip so it becomes an all-day affair each time not to mention prep if it's my own car I'm using.

93Rubie,
Good advice on the C4. Thanks. Years ago owned both a '93 LT1 A4 (my first Corvette!) and a '92 ZR-1. Both were great cars, although I found them a little lacking chassis and suspension-wise in stock form. We did some drag racing with the LT1 and it was my wife's fair weather daily driver. The ZR-1 was mostly a garage queen although we did do some very minor mods (4.10s, B&B exhaust, DRM tune, etc). I have no doubt that a C4 in the right hands would be a great track car, but for some of the reasons I mentioned in my original post for a Corvette I'd just prefer to stick with the LSx architecture and the newer, lighter car if at all possible.

Rob31,
It's funny you mention the Cobalt SS because (and I know this may sound crazy) I enjoyed the heck out of the supercharged version that I drove during my first day in class. It was so predictable, forgiving, and fairly easy to drive fast. Of course it plowed and I know that front tires wouldn't last long, but I actually enjoyed it more than the Miata. To make matters worse, I have a little 2009 turbo Cobalt SS that I use as my commuter. With some minor suspension and engine mods it's a little go-kart while still averaging 31mpg on a 50/50 92-octane/E85 tune. I've thought seriously about just tracking it (or, more likely, buying another one since I depend on my commuter and would be reluctant to track it regularly) and have a very good resource for quality upgrade parts. However, I feel that going with a traditional RWD platform (especially one that has a much greater array of legitimate aftermarket support and parts availability) makes more sense even if it will cost more. I'm not sure if this is the correct approach, but I think it's the path I'm heading down. I welcome any comments on this reasoning if it seems off-base.

Again, thanks to all for listening to my ramblings and guiding me in the right direction. Much appreciated.

NOSLO6

Above all, buy a car that someone else has paid the dollars (and wrenching time) to build well and properly sort out.

If you have the budget, look for one built by one of the highly experienced shops that knows all of the tricks and pitfalls (I love Phoenix Performance). Expertise and thousands of hours of real world experience is a very valuable commodity.

Good luck!

bags142

I bought my 2000 frc 3 years ago with 48k miles for ~$15k. I wanted a dual street/track car. I came from a bmw 540.

So I was exactly where you are...

I have don between 10-14 trackdays the past 3 years. I am VERY happy with my vette. I have driven it ~300 miles to the track and beat the snot out of it for 2 days and then drove it ~300 miles home with ac full blast.

I have swapped in better seats, poly bushings, c6z06 shocks, l/r front wheel bearings and multiple rotors and brake pads. That's it. I will be adding an oil cooler and maybe a better oil pump.

I do NOT run slicks. I have run kdw tires and nt-05 tires. Both street tires.

I will drive this car anywhere, not just for track days. All road trips are in this car. It is just fun to drive.

All that said, it is MUCH faster than I want to go sometimes. I come out of turn 9 at RRR about 95 mph. I let off the gas at a speedo indicated ~140 mph with still room to go down the front straight. At RA (atlanta) I let of at an indicated ~125 mph down the back straight and go thru turn 12 at ~90 mph and that is scary, but also what makes it fun/exciting.

I would buy an e36 non-m or M in a heart beat. There are MANY track prepped cars for under $10k.

I still may buy one in the future. As I am going faster and faster, I am thinking about more safety equipment. I only have a 3 pt and a helmet.
Do I put in a harness bar and get a harness? Or do I cage it? Hans?

I have been head in sand to some degree about safety, but it is something I am thinking about more and more. Along with reliability of the car.

Here is an example
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ighlight=track

And these cars are not just for beginners.. they can be VERY fast.

So, my suggestion is to think about what you and your wife want to do. And listen to more people than just me. You can't go wrong with a vette or e-36 or miata or cobalt. The soltice...would be a BAD call..lol.. parts would be a PITA.

My 1/2 cent

Fulton 1

Awesome links. Thanks.

Man, you guys have really got me thinking about an already-built car now since I'm seeing many that aren't full-on "racecars" if you will. I also spent some time perusing racingjunk.com classifieds and there's a lot out there. I hate to admit it, but there's a part of me that would feel pretty stupid about showing up at the track pulling some badass, purpose-built monster only to putz around as I learn. Kind of like the kid that shows up to play pickup football with a uniform and pads, but can't even throw the ball. :o Maybe this is something I am just going to have to get over. This whole experience has been pretty humbling as I continue to find myself in one of those condition white states where I don't even know what I don't know!

One thing that does worry me about picking up someone else's project is that I wouldn't even know where to start looking at what is and what isn't a quality build for, say, an E30 BMW or a spec Miata. Obviously, Phoenix has a great reputation and I'm sure I could find helpful local sources on some of the other platforms. I'd definitely feel more comfortable about a platform I am familiar with.

In reality I was hoping to trade in my GTO for a regular old street-driven C5Z, which would provide money toward the project in addition to freeing up enough shop space for another vehicle (something I've officially run out of), and then just slowly upgrading it as necessary. However, there sure do appear to be some deals to be had out there and several advantages to going that route. It would mean having to wait until next year at least, but definitely food for thought.

Looks like I have lots of research yet to do...

JimbeauZ06

Not necessarily true Andy. Joe at Phoenix builds "Track Day" cars which are street legal, and my C5Z is a roll-cage and open exhaust away from being a T1 car and is still street-legal. I could drive it to the track but choose not to. (mainly because I've been known to break stuff).

I've watched friends try to get FRCs or C5 coupes up to C5Z levels and it's worth the extra money if you can swing it to go ahead and buy the Z, but as I tell my brother-in-law it doesn't matter what car you drive at the track as long as you drive a car at the track. If all you can afford is a 10-year old Honda Civic then buy it and go!

Welcome to my addiction and good luck!

Don Keefhardt

Don't put anything on-track that you can't afford / are emotionally unable to throw into a dumpster.

"There are two kinds of drivers on-track: Those who have crashed, and those who are going to crash."

I'm glad I started doing this 3+ decades ago in $2000-3000 crap-boxes. Tossed a lot of cars into that dumpster...never shed a tear over any of them.

YMMV.

gmccreary

Look what happens when you come out of T9 at 115 mph