Choosing the right brakes
04-12-2013, 05:10 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Choosing the right brakes
Hey guys there are so many opinions and different threads to read and develop my own opinion from over the years.. But right now today what would you choose for a brake set up on a C6 ZO6 for daily use and track days?
04-12-2013, 06:43 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
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1 - Castrol SRF brake fluid. Yes, it is by far the most expensive. However, it is liquid gold and you won't have to bleed nearly as often, which offsets the price. I just started using it and have gone five straight track days since I put it in without issue. It doesn't boil.
2 - Are you looking to keep OEM calipers or go with a BBK? I ran carbotech xp12/xp10 setup on the track and would swap to 1521 on the street on my grand sport OEM setup. Didn't need to swap rotors. I have eventually become lazy and just run the xp12/xp10 setup all the time. It is loud and dusty, but I can live with it.
3 - If you are driving the car hard on the track, you should eventually consider a BBK up front. Expensive, but dissipates heat better than Z06/GS calipers from what I have read. And you only need a BBK up front. Stock calipers are fine in the rear. I went with Stoptech ST60 up front and very happy. Even StopTech says you don't need a BBK in the rear.
http://stoptech.com/technical-suppor...brake-upgrades
I'm sure the Brembo, AP, Cobalt, PFC, Hawk, etc.. .crowd will chime in. These are all good systems/pads and you probably can't go wrong.
04-12-2013, 07:32 PM
#4
Drifting
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http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...ming-soon.html
For what you are proposing this is hands down the best solution and you will find no better place to work with and no better person than Jeff
For what you are proposing this is hands down the best solution and you will find no better place to work with and no better person than Jeff
Last edited by geerookie; 04-13-2013 at 08:01 AM. Reason: my bad, wrong link!
04-12-2013, 07:54 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
04-12-2013, 08:31 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
In MY opinion, this would be expensive overkill. It's $10,000 (or more) for the same level of brakes available from AP, Stoptech, Wilwood etc for $5000 or so. In addition, there is the cost of maintenance with replacement rotors being thousands rather than hundreds of dollars. REALLY tho, for your stated level of usage (street and track) you only need race fluid (SRF) and race pads. I use Stoptech Street Performance pads on both street and track for low level braking tracks like MSR Cresson, and Cobalt Friction XR2 pads for tracks that are hard on brakes, like Eagles Canyon or Road America. Many people say they use XR2 pads for street too.
04-12-2013, 08:36 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
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In MY opinion, this would be expensive overkill. It's $10,000 (or more) for the same level of brakes available from AP, Stoptech, Wilwood etc for $5000 or so. In addition, there is the cost of maintenance with replacement rotors being thousands rather than hundreds of dollars. REALLY tho, for your stated level of usage (street and track) you only need race fluid (SRF) and race pads. I use Stoptech Street Performance pads on both street and track for low level braking tracks like MSR Cresson, and Cobalt Friction XR2 pads for tracks that are hard on brakes, like Eagles Canyon or Road America. Many people say they use XR2 pads for street too.
the ZR1 setup is overkill and honestly overpriced. The replacement cost on rotors and pads are throught the roof. For that money, get BBK front and rear such as StopTech, Brembo, etc...And yes, the BBK front and rear looks cool. The pads for BBK are usually a bit cheaper, so over a very long period of time, they might pay for themselves in cheaper pad replacement cost. My xp12 carbotech pads are over $100 cheaper up front vs. OEM GS/Z06 front calipers. I will chew threw a couple sets a year so I might get my money back in pad savings sometime this decade...
04-13-2013, 01:28 AM
#9
Drifting
Thread Starter
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...-geometry.html
For what you are proposing this is hands down the best solution and you will find no better place to work with and no better person than Jeff
For what you are proposing this is hands down the best solution and you will find no better place to work with and no better person than Jeff
04-13-2013, 08:02 AM
#10
Drifting
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Jeff Ritt....a Jersey boy that moved to NC.
Sorry! My Bad. Wrong link.
Try this one and I fixed it above.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...ming-soon.html
Sorry! My Bad. Wrong link.
Try this one and I fixed it above.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...ming-soon.html
04-13-2013, 11:02 AM
#11
Safety Car
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...ming-soon.html
For what you are proposing this is hands down the best solution and you will find no better place to work with and no better person than Jeff
For what you are proposing this is hands down the best solution and you will find no better place to work with and no better person than Jeff
04-13-2013, 03:43 PM
#12
Burning Brakes
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...ming-soon.html
For what you are proposing this is hands down the best solution and you will find no better place to work with and no better person than Jeff
For what you are proposing this is hands down the best solution and you will find no better place to work with and no better person than Jeff
I really didnt want to go with Wilwood but that was the only kit I found that fit with my stock C5Z wheels. AP brakes are SUPER legit and that price IMO is not bad at all for a whole setup.
Thanks again for posting!
04-15-2013, 08:19 AM
#13
Supporting Vendor
Thanks guys. You can see my profile here. I've been on the forums for quite a while while working for both my previous and current employers. I've helped out many of the track junkies that have been here a while.
If you look at my post history, you'll see that I've verbally abused the C6 Z06 OEM brake system since the day I first saw it. It leaves a lot on the table for improvement. My recommendation would be our upcoming front Endurance six piston front/355mm disc option. With that setup, you will never want for brake performance again, regardless of what other mods you do to the car in the future (more power, less weight, wider/stickier tires, suspension, improved driver skill, etc.).
My standard advice is to try the front BBK first and see how it works for you. If you want to add a rear later, it's no problem to do so. With our upcoming system, I expect the rear setup to save a considerable amount of unsprung weight, and it will offer significant improvements in pad and disc wear.
You can see my profile here. I've been on the forums for quite a while while working for both my previous and current employers. I've helped out many of the track junkies that have been here a while.If you look at my post history, you'll see that I've verbally abused the C6 Z06 OEM brake system since the day I first saw it. It leaves a lot on the table for improvement. My recommendation would be our upcoming front Endurance six piston front/355mm disc option. With that setup, you will never want for brake performance again, regardless of what other mods you do to the car in the future (more power, less weight, wider/stickier tires, suspension, improved driver skill, etc.).
My standard advice is to try the front BBK first and see how it works for you. If you want to add a rear later, it's no problem to do so. With our upcoming system, I expect the rear setup to save a considerable amount of unsprung weight, and it will offer significant improvements in pad and disc wear.
04-15-2013, 10:29 AM
#14
Drifting
Thread Starter
Thanks guys. You can see my profile here. I've been on the forums for quite a while while working for both my previous and current employers. I've helped out many of the track junkies that have been here a while.
If you look at my post history, you'll see that I've verbally abused the C6 Z06 OEM brake system since the day I first saw it. It leaves a lot on the table for improvement. My recommendation would be our upcoming front Endurance six piston front/355mm disc option. With that setup, you will never want for brake performance again, regardless of what other mods you do to the car in the future (more power, less weight, wider/stickier tires, suspension, improved driver skill, etc.).
My standard advice is to try the front BBK first and see how it works for you. If you want to add a rear later, it's no problem to do so. With our upcoming system, I expect the rear setup to save a considerable amount of unsprung weight, and it will offer significant improvements in pad and disc wear.
You can see my profile here. I've been on the forums for quite a while while working for both my previous and current employers. I've helped out many of the track junkies that have been here a while.If you look at my post history, you'll see that I've verbally abused the C6 Z06 OEM brake system since the day I first saw it. It leaves a lot on the table for improvement. My recommendation would be our upcoming front Endurance six piston front/355mm disc option. With that setup, you will never want for brake performance again, regardless of what other mods you do to the car in the future (more power, less weight, wider/stickier tires, suspension, improved driver skill, etc.).
My standard advice is to try the front BBK first and see how it works for you. If you want to add a rear later, it's no problem to do so. With our upcoming system, I expect the rear setup to save a considerable amount of unsprung weight, and it will offer significant improvements in pad and disc wear.
04-15-2013, 10:59 AM
#15
Drifting
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04-15-2013, 11:25 AM
#16
Drifting
Thread Starter
04-15-2013, 12:00 PM
#17
Supporting Vendor
I'm afraid to dig too deep into this argument because all of the ZR1 guys (mainly JVP ) will dive in and attack me on this one. At the risk of derailing my own thread, here's my take on the current situation:
The ROI of carbon ceramic discs under heavy racetrack use by the average customer (one who does not possess bottomless pockets, nor the ability to drive his car to its ultimate capacity on track) is still debatable. Here are some points:
1) Yes, carbon ceramic discs do save an incredible amount of unsprung weight
2) Yes, there are plenty of ZR1 owners who have tracked, and continue to track their factory brakes without major issue
3) Pad costs are very high $775/set, and they do wear out at 'normal' rates. You can see some discussion on track pad wear rates here.
4) I don't think there is enough data to put a lifespan on the ZR1 discs under heavy track use. I don't know how many people are using them this way, and many people aren't publicly vocal about it because they fear losing warranty coverage on their system because they are so expensive to replace. As with assessing the lifespan of any parts on track, there are tons of variables in play (track layout, car specs, driver ability, tire choice, etc.).
5) There are still oodles of customers on other platforms (Porsche for example), who take their CC discs off and replace them with iron if they intend to track their cars heavily.
6) There isn't a stack of professional racing data on which one can rely, as carbon ceramic is a dual-use (street/track) material. Proper racing cars like F1 use carbon-carbon systems, which have different properties and are not effective for street use.
7) The discs are huge, and require much larger wheels and tires than one would ideally run on the car. That means more unsprung weight, which counteracts the loss of mass on the discs, and that wheel mass is further out from the hub...creating more rotational inertia (a bad thing). Tire choice on larger rims is more limited. Larger wheels and tires are both more expensive.
I think the best way to look at this option vs. one of our kits is to just run the numbers:
Our front and rear system will cost roughly $6500 for all four corners. The ZR1 setup will cost $9000 (I think that's the cheapest you can find them). What are you getting for the extra $2,500? Weight savings. Lower weight is the primary benefit of the ZR1 setup. I unfortunately don't have the OEM ZR1 component weights. Based on the CC systems I've worked with in the past, I'd guess the front discs weigh about 13 lbs. each, and 10 lbs. each rear. The discs in our system will be roughly 17-18 lbs. front and maybe 14 lbs. rear? For simplicity, let's just say the ZR1 disc setup will save 5 lbs. per corner vs. our setup.
I don't have the ZR1 caliper weights, but my hunch is that they're each a couple of pounds heavier than our new calipers. So factoring that in, you're saving at most 2-3 lbs. per corner over our setup. Our calipers also have ventilated stainless steel pistons, anti-knockback springs, high temp silicone seals, more durable finish...all sorts of features designed specifically to deal with the heat of track use.
So is it worth $2,500 to save 2-3 lbs. per corner? Well, that's not even close the whole story.
Spares
Let's say you use your car at the track fairly regularly, and this is what your spares list would look like over the next next three years:
Essex six piston front setup/four piston rear:
8 sets of race pads front ($300 each)= $2400
2 sets of spare front discs= $1300
3 sets of race pads rear ($300 each)= $900
1 set of spare rear discs= $600
Total= $5,200
ZR1 brake setup front/rear:
8 sets of race pads front ($775 each)= $6200
3 sets of race pads rear ($500 each)= $1500
Total brake pads= $7700
It's hard to pinpoint pad usage, etc. But I would venture to say it's a fair assessment that you would spend considerably more money on brake pads alone with a ZR1 setup vs. our setup over the course of three track seasons. So if you're paying $2,500 more up front on the purchase of the kit, and then another $2,500 in pad spares, you're already at +$5,000 for the ZR1 setup.
If you needed replacement discs with the ZR1 setup during those first three years, you're looking at about $5000 more....+$10,000 total.
If you need to buy some nice 19" track wheels and tires to clear the ZR1 package, you're looking at another $4,000-$5,000. That's just on initial purchase. Factor in the cost of 19" replacement rubber vs. 18"...big difference. Again...more rotating mass on the wheels and tires, less tire choice, more expensive.
Now we're at +$15,000 or more.
What will the residual value be of the ZR1 parts after you thrash them on the track for several years? What will a potential buyer pay if he knows he'll need to go out and buy a $5,000 set of discs in the near future?
I think for most people, the costs wouldn't even be close. With the exception of the very slight weight savings, I believe the performance of our system will be superior as well. Everything in our setup is designed for a full-tilt beating.
) will dive in and attack me on this one. At the risk of derailing my own thread, here's my take on the current situation:The ROI of carbon ceramic discs under heavy racetrack use by the average customer (one who does not possess bottomless pockets, nor the ability to drive his car to its ultimate capacity on track) is still debatable. Here are some points:
1) Yes, carbon ceramic discs do save an incredible amount of unsprung weight
2) Yes, there are plenty of ZR1 owners who have tracked, and continue to track their factory brakes without major issue
3) Pad costs are very high $775/set, and they do wear out at 'normal' rates. You can see some discussion on track pad wear rates here.
4) I don't think there is enough data to put a lifespan on the ZR1 discs under heavy track use. I don't know how many people are using them this way, and many people aren't publicly vocal about it because they fear losing warranty coverage on their system because they are so expensive to replace. As with assessing the lifespan of any parts on track, there are tons of variables in play (track layout, car specs, driver ability, tire choice, etc.).
5) There are still oodles of customers on other platforms (Porsche for example), who take their CC discs off and replace them with iron if they intend to track their cars heavily.
6) There isn't a stack of professional racing data on which one can rely, as carbon ceramic is a dual-use (street/track) material. Proper racing cars like F1 use carbon-carbon systems, which have different properties and are not effective for street use.
7) The discs are huge, and require much larger wheels and tires than one would ideally run on the car. That means more unsprung weight, which counteracts the loss of mass on the discs, and that wheel mass is further out from the hub...creating more rotational inertia (a bad thing). Tire choice on larger rims is more limited. Larger wheels and tires are both more expensive.
I think the best way to look at this option vs. one of our kits is to just run the numbers:
Our front and rear system will cost roughly $6500 for all four corners. The ZR1 setup will cost $9000 (I think that's the cheapest you can find them). What are you getting for the extra $2,500? Weight savings. Lower weight is the primary benefit of the ZR1 setup. I unfortunately don't have the OEM ZR1 component weights. Based on the CC systems I've worked with in the past, I'd guess the front discs weigh about 13 lbs. each, and 10 lbs. each rear. The discs in our system will be roughly 17-18 lbs. front and maybe 14 lbs. rear? For simplicity, let's just say the ZR1 disc setup will save 5 lbs. per corner vs. our setup.
I don't have the ZR1 caliper weights, but my hunch is that they're each a couple of pounds heavier than our new calipers. So factoring that in, you're saving at most 2-3 lbs. per corner over our setup. Our calipers also have ventilated stainless steel pistons, anti-knockback springs, high temp silicone seals, more durable finish...all sorts of features designed specifically to deal with the heat of track use.
So is it worth $2,500 to save 2-3 lbs. per corner? Well, that's not even close the whole story.
Spares
Let's say you use your car at the track fairly regularly, and this is what your spares list would look like over the next next three years:
Essex six piston front setup/four piston rear:
8 sets of race pads front ($300 each)= $2400
2 sets of spare front discs= $1300
3 sets of race pads rear ($300 each)= $900
1 set of spare rear discs= $600
Total= $5,200
ZR1 brake setup front/rear:
8 sets of race pads front ($775 each)= $6200
3 sets of race pads rear ($500 each)= $1500
Total brake pads= $7700
It's hard to pinpoint pad usage, etc. But I would venture to say it's a fair assessment that you would spend considerably more money on brake pads alone with a ZR1 setup vs. our setup over the course of three track seasons. So if you're paying $2,500 more up front on the purchase of the kit, and then another $2,500 in pad spares, you're already at +$5,000 for the ZR1 setup.
If you needed replacement discs with the ZR1 setup during those first three years, you're looking at about $5000 more....+$10,000 total.
If you need to buy some nice 19" track wheels and tires to clear the ZR1 package, you're looking at another $4,000-$5,000. That's just on initial purchase. Factor in the cost of 19" replacement rubber vs. 18"...big difference. Again...more rotating mass on the wheels and tires, less tire choice, more expensive.
Now we're at +$15,000 or more.
What will the residual value be of the ZR1 parts after you thrash them on the track for several years? What will a potential buyer pay if he knows he'll need to go out and buy a $5,000 set of discs in the near future?
I think for most people, the costs wouldn't even be close. With the exception of the very slight weight savings, I believe the performance of our system will be superior as well. Everything in our setup is designed for a full-tilt beating.
04-15-2013, 12:10 PM
#18
Race Director
I run a few track events per year - this year I've done the NCM Sebring event, a Daytona event last week, I'll do the NCM VIR HPDE in June, and probably 3 events at Daytona in Oct-Dec.
I drive my car on the street and I drive to all events - 300 miles round trip to Sebring, a little more than 1,500 miles round trip to VIR, and 20 miles round trip to Daytona.
So.....I don't know how much tracking you do, but if it's something like the 12-15 track days I do a year, I find the stock calipers are really, really good!!
I've got SS pistons in the front. I put in some ducts to direct air onto the inside of the rotor, but don't have spindle ducts. I've been running Carbotech XP12/10 or Hawk DTC70/60 with DBA 4000 rotors front and rear. Castrol SRF.
I just did 2 days at Daytona last week. We got five 30 minute sessions each day for a total of 5 hours of hard driving, and with the setup above (the CT XP12/10 at this event) I never had anything but full confidence in the brakes when slowing from 160+ to go through the Bus Stop at almost 100 mph less than that, or braking from 175+ to take T1 into the infield at 55.
I do crack a front rotor about every 5-6 track days, and a set of front pads lasts about 4-5 days, so I always drag along spares (I tow a trailer behind the Vette with track wheels/tires, tools, rotors, pads - I guess it's about time for a trailer to tow the car in and a tow vehicle!!).
If you're looking for podium finishes for better sponsorships and a higher paying pro driver contract, then go for all the brake you can afford.
If you're driving the car on the street and doing 15-20 track days a year, IMHO the stock calipers are excellent. Upgrade your pads, fluid, and rotors and you're good to go!!
Bob
I drive my car on the street and I drive to all events - 300 miles round trip to Sebring, a little more than 1,500 miles round trip to VIR, and 20 miles round trip to Daytona.
So.....I don't know how much tracking you do, but if it's something like the 12-15 track days I do a year, I find the stock calipers are really, really good!!
I've got SS pistons in the front. I put in some ducts to direct air onto the inside of the rotor, but don't have spindle ducts. I've been running Carbotech XP12/10 or Hawk DTC70/60 with DBA 4000 rotors front and rear. Castrol SRF.
I just did 2 days at Daytona last week. We got five 30 minute sessions each day for a total of 5 hours of hard driving, and with the setup above (the CT XP12/10 at this event) I never had anything but full confidence in the brakes when slowing from 160+ to go through the Bus Stop at almost 100 mph less than that, or braking from 175+ to take T1 into the infield at 55.
I do crack a front rotor about every 5-6 track days, and a set of front pads lasts about 4-5 days, so I always drag along spares (I tow a trailer behind the Vette with track wheels/tires, tools, rotors, pads - I guess it's about time for a trailer to tow the car in and a tow vehicle!!).
If you're looking for podium finishes for better sponsorships and a higher paying pro driver contract, then go for all the brake you can afford.
If you're driving the car on the street and doing 15-20 track days a year, IMHO the stock calipers are excellent. Upgrade your pads, fluid, and rotors and you're good to go!!
Bob
04-15-2013, 12:50 PM
#19
Drifting
Member Since: Dec 2005
Location: Dayton, OH
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Math doesn't lie
Unless it's our goverments math!
04-15-2013, 03:10 PM
#20
Drifting
Thread Starter
I'm afraid to dig too deep into this argument because all of the ZR1 guys (mainly JVP ) will dive in and attack me on this one. At the risk of derailing my own thread, here's my take on the current situation:
The ROI of carbon ceramic discs under heavy racetrack use by the average customer (one who does not possess bottomless pockets, nor the ability to drive his car to its ultimate capacity on track) is still debatable. Here are some points:
1) Yes, carbon ceramic discs do save an incredible amount of unsprung weight
2) Yes, there are plenty of ZR1 owners who have tracked, and continue to track their factory brakes without major issue
3) Pad costs are very high $775/set, and they do wear out at 'normal' rates. You can see some discussion on track pad wear rates here.
4) I don't think there is enough data to put a lifespan on the ZR1 discs under heavy track use. I don't know how many people are using them this way, and many people aren't publicly vocal about it because they fear losing warranty coverage on their system because they are so expensive to replace. As with assessing the lifespan of any parts on track, there are tons of variables in play (track layout, car specs, driver ability, tire choice, etc.).
5) There are still oodles of customers on other platforms (Porsche for example), who take their CC discs off and replace them with iron if they intend to track their cars heavily.
6) There isn't a stack of professional racing data on which one can rely, as carbon ceramic is a dual-use (street/track) material. Proper racing cars like F1 use carbon-carbon systems, which have different properties and are not effective for street use.
7) The discs are huge, and require much larger wheels and tires than one would ideally run on the car. That means more unsprung weight, which counteracts the loss of mass on the discs, and that wheel mass is further out from the hub...creating more rotational inertia (a bad thing). Tire choice on larger rims is more limited. Larger wheels and tires are both more expensive.
I think the best way to look at this option vs. one of our kits is to just run the numbers:
Our front and rear system will cost roughly $6500 for all four corners. The ZR1 setup will cost $9000 (I think that's the cheapest you can find them). What are you getting for the extra $2,500? Weight savings. Lower weight is the primary benefit of the ZR1 setup. I unfortunately don't have the OEM ZR1 component weights. Based on the CC systems I've worked with in the past, I'd guess the front discs weigh about 13 lbs. each, and 10 lbs. each rear. The discs in our system will be roughly 17-18 lbs. front and maybe 14 lbs. rear? For simplicity, let's just say the ZR1 disc setup will save 5 lbs. per corner vs. our setup.
I don't have the ZR1 caliper weights, but my hunch is that they're each a couple of pounds heavier than our new calipers. So factoring that in, you're saving at most 2-3 lbs. per corner over our setup. Our calipers also have ventilated stainless steel pistons, anti-knockback springs, high temp silicone seals, more durable finish...all sorts of features designed specifically to deal with the heat of track use.
So is it worth $2,500 to save 2-3 lbs. per corner? Well, that's not even close the whole story.
Spares
Let's say you use your car at the track fairly regularly, and this is what your spares list would look like over the next next three years:
Essex six piston front setup/four piston rear:
8 sets of race pads front ($300 each)= $2400
2 sets of spare front discs= $1300
3 sets of race pads rear ($300 each)= $900
1 set of spare rear discs= $600
Total= $5,200
ZR1 brake setup front/rear:
8 sets of race pads front ($775 each)= $6200
3 sets of race pads rear ($500 each)= $1500
Total brake pads= $7700
It's hard to pinpoint pad usage, etc. But I would venture to say it's a fair assessment that you would spend considerably more money on brake pads alone with a ZR1 setup vs. our setup over the course of three track seasons. So if you're paying $2,500 more up front on the purchase of the kit, and then another $2,500 in pad spares, you're already at +$5,000 for the ZR1 setup.
If you needed replacement discs with the ZR1 setup during those first three years, you're looking at about $5000 more....+$10,000 total.
If you need to buy some nice 19" track wheels and tires to clear the ZR1 package, you're looking at another $4,000-$5,000. That's just on initial purchase. Factor in the cost of 19" replacement rubber vs. 18"...big difference. Again...more rotating mass on the wheels and tires, less tire choice, more expensive.
Now we're at +$15,000 or more.
What will the residual value be of the ZR1 parts after you thrash them on the track for several years? What will a potential buyer pay if he knows he'll need to go out and buy a $5,000 set of discs in the near future?
I think for most people, the costs wouldn't even be close. With the exception of the very slight weight savings, I believe the performance of our system will be superior as well. Everything in our setup is designed for a full-tilt beating.
) will dive in and attack me on this one. At the risk of derailing my own thread, here's my take on the current situation:The ROI of carbon ceramic discs under heavy racetrack use by the average customer (one who does not possess bottomless pockets, nor the ability to drive his car to its ultimate capacity on track) is still debatable. Here are some points:
1) Yes, carbon ceramic discs do save an incredible amount of unsprung weight
2) Yes, there are plenty of ZR1 owners who have tracked, and continue to track their factory brakes without major issue
3) Pad costs are very high $775/set, and they do wear out at 'normal' rates. You can see some discussion on track pad wear rates here.
4) I don't think there is enough data to put a lifespan on the ZR1 discs under heavy track use. I don't know how many people are using them this way, and many people aren't publicly vocal about it because they fear losing warranty coverage on their system because they are so expensive to replace. As with assessing the lifespan of any parts on track, there are tons of variables in play (track layout, car specs, driver ability, tire choice, etc.).
5) There are still oodles of customers on other platforms (Porsche for example), who take their CC discs off and replace them with iron if they intend to track their cars heavily.
6) There isn't a stack of professional racing data on which one can rely, as carbon ceramic is a dual-use (street/track) material. Proper racing cars like F1 use carbon-carbon systems, which have different properties and are not effective for street use.
7) The discs are huge, and require much larger wheels and tires than one would ideally run on the car. That means more unsprung weight, which counteracts the loss of mass on the discs, and that wheel mass is further out from the hub...creating more rotational inertia (a bad thing). Tire choice on larger rims is more limited. Larger wheels and tires are both more expensive.
I think the best way to look at this option vs. one of our kits is to just run the numbers:
Our front and rear system will cost roughly $6500 for all four corners. The ZR1 setup will cost $9000 (I think that's the cheapest you can find them). What are you getting for the extra $2,500? Weight savings. Lower weight is the primary benefit of the ZR1 setup. I unfortunately don't have the OEM ZR1 component weights. Based on the CC systems I've worked with in the past, I'd guess the front discs weigh about 13 lbs. each, and 10 lbs. each rear. The discs in our system will be roughly 17-18 lbs. front and maybe 14 lbs. rear? For simplicity, let's just say the ZR1 disc setup will save 5 lbs. per corner vs. our setup.
I don't have the ZR1 caliper weights, but my hunch is that they're each a couple of pounds heavier than our new calipers. So factoring that in, you're saving at most 2-3 lbs. per corner over our setup. Our calipers also have ventilated stainless steel pistons, anti-knockback springs, high temp silicone seals, more durable finish...all sorts of features designed specifically to deal with the heat of track use.
So is it worth $2,500 to save 2-3 lbs. per corner? Well, that's not even close the whole story.
Spares
Let's say you use your car at the track fairly regularly, and this is what your spares list would look like over the next next three years:
Essex six piston front setup/four piston rear:
8 sets of race pads front ($300 each)= $2400
2 sets of spare front discs= $1300
3 sets of race pads rear ($300 each)= $900
1 set of spare rear discs= $600
Total= $5,200
ZR1 brake setup front/rear:
8 sets of race pads front ($775 each)= $6200
3 sets of race pads rear ($500 each)= $1500
Total brake pads= $7700
It's hard to pinpoint pad usage, etc. But I would venture to say it's a fair assessment that you would spend considerably more money on brake pads alone with a ZR1 setup vs. our setup over the course of three track seasons. So if you're paying $2,500 more up front on the purchase of the kit, and then another $2,500 in pad spares, you're already at +$5,000 for the ZR1 setup.
If you needed replacement discs with the ZR1 setup during those first three years, you're looking at about $5000 more....+$10,000 total.
If you need to buy some nice 19" track wheels and tires to clear the ZR1 package, you're looking at another $4,000-$5,000. That's just on initial purchase. Factor in the cost of 19" replacement rubber vs. 18"...big difference. Again...more rotating mass on the wheels and tires, less tire choice, more expensive.
Now we're at +$15,000 or more.
What will the residual value be of the ZR1 parts after you thrash them on the track for several years? What will a potential buyer pay if he knows he'll need to go out and buy a $5,000 set of discs in the near future?
I think for most people, the costs wouldn't even be close. With the exception of the very slight weight savings, I believe the performance of our system will be superior as well. Everything in our setup is designed for a full-tilt beating.
WELL THAT PRETTY MUCH SUMS IT UP FOR ME! The reason i thought it was cheap for the ZR1 brakes was because of this link .. but thank you for the great input. send me a pm so we can discuss this further.
http://www.supervettes.com/zr6x-brak...amic-pads.html