Supercharged111

Anybody got anything? I had an eye opener at my last track day. Me and my friend both bought CMC cars and by the 3rd session, I was able to slowly creep away from him. Knowing I was faster, I decided to follow. The goal was to stay up his ***. Easier said than done, I'd back off to keep from hitting him coming off a long straight and then have to reel that back in. My fear of rear ending him kept me far enough away most times and his rhythm affected mine which affected my pace. I could feel it all happening as it happened and it was odd. I have comp school this weekend and while I don't expect to figure it all out on my first few races, I want to get as much as I can. The conclusion I came to is that if I'm 1 second per lap faster than the next guy, that's less than .1 seconds on any given corner. Not exactly a huge advantage. Short of them just choking, I'm having a difficult time imagining places to pass. If they run a good, defensive line there really isn't any getting around them. The way I see it, I can take an unorthodox line through the corkscrew that they likely already take in an attempt to gain some momentum on the front straight, hope drafting puts me over the top on the back straight, or convince them to burn their 1 defensive move by pinching their car on the straight and converging on their line for a pass or, more realistically, an opportunity to pull door to door. My lap times are right on par with the fast guys, just not in door to door fashion, so it looks like it's just a matter of working through traffic which is totally new to me. Whatd'ya got?

Supercharged111

http://racegearwarehouse.com/racing-...sum-dolor-sit/

This explains one of my ideas a little differently. It mentions braking at the normal point, I wasn't aware I could, but it makes sense the way it's described.

pkincy

How big a field do you have now?? And are you CMC or CMC 2? I ran CMC when there was only one class and in California we averaged 25 car fields. The beauty of that is that no matter where you ran you had someone to "race" with.

Practice makes perfect. Running behind someone can teach you a lot if they are faster than you are. If you are faster than running behind them is a great way to be ready for them to make a mistake. It takes a real experienced driver to not overdrive when someone has his nose completely up your *ss lap after lap. Generally within 2-3 laps you will catch the rabbit you are chasing completely missing a braking point because his eyes were on his mirror not the turn in point.

It sounds like you know the difference between a qualifying line and a defensive line. There is also a passing line. Typically a slower line but a later braking point that may make you miss the apex but not by so much that you allow the passed car to get back under you. Just enough for you to get in the way of his turn in. Of course a good defensive line will protect you from getting there.

Although NASA frowns on contact a little rubbing is going to happen. It takes a while to get comfortable with that. You will have an orange stripe on the bumper for your rookie year. That is a time that folks likely will give you some space to make some mistakes, so take the opportunity to do that.

My first year I wanted to learn the tracks and just complete races. Patience can be a virtue here. But once you are comfortable with who you are running with and get comfortable with running really close to another car (We all actually got pretty good at handling a 2 or 3 wide situation in a turn and keeping a couple of inches away from each other) you will know it.

That is an adrenaline rush that is another order of magnitude up from simply running an HPDE.

Enjoy.

Supercharged111

Luckily I'm familiar with our local tracks, so that's 1 less thing to occupy my brain. I've been watching all the youtube videos I can in an effort to learn whatever I can about my competitors and their track personalities. CMC has merged back into 1, I'll be in a field of 8-10 cars and anticipate finding someone my pace. These guys rub here and there and are fine with it which was OK by me. They're not balling up cars, so it seems they walk the line pretty good.

Bill32

First, if you're that close to his bumper, you should be one car width to the inside (if you are better on the brakes) so that you can present yourself (pull up beside him so that he can see you). Give him room to complete the corner if you are beside him, yes, you'll be a little off line but chances are that a driver with little racing experience will back off enough that you will be able to return to the correct line on corner exit. You won't bet by him if you're right on his bumper.

Second, If you feel that he's slower under braking and slower on corner exit ("have to reel him in"), then back off at least a car length on corner entry, accelerate sooner than he does mid corner to corner exit and pass him on the straight. This is the best way to get around a slower car.

bosco022

One tactic I have used on a competitor with similar pace and who is quick to chop you off with an early defensive move is to feint a late braking move into a heavy braking zone and then quickly move back to the preferred line. Often the competitor will make an even earlier apex, push on exit leaving the opportunity to make the classic crossover move.

You of course should be taking note of where your car is better than the other and make your attempts there.

FruiTay

Subscribing

Supercharged111

I actually wasn't that close, I really didn't want to tap him in a non-competitive environment. That and I knew he had a tendency to brake earlier than me in that corner. I guess that's why so many of the follow videos have the follower diving down, not for a pass, but from what you're saying A: to keep from hitting the guy in front and B: to keep in his mirrors to lay on the pressure.

On your second part, I imagine there's a bit of experimentation with the exact distance. The one straight that that would work really well on is a short one. Might take a few failed attempts to hone that one in.

I've seen this one done before to, and I really like it. It's all done before the braking begins though, isn't it? I watched the passer goad the passee into taking a highly defensive inside line on a long straight. The passee's car was massively pinched, the passer moved back to the outside having forced the passee to burn his only defensive move and the passee immediately washed to full track out leaving the entry wide open for the taking. I wonder how many times they fall for that one. . .

This strategerizing may all be for naught when I get there and realize they ran their fastest lap off line.

JerryTX

Best way to experiment and get good at being an aggressive passer is Karting. I love to go and I love being matched up with an equal driver and trying to pass him/her clean. You can always get away with murder at the kart tracks but trying to do it clean.. that is how you learn not to be on a guys bumper into his slower section of the track but in fact to have left just enough gap to pull him once he's back on the gas.

Bill32

"I guess that's why so many of the follow videos have the follower diving down, not for a pass, but from what you're saying A: to keep from hitting the guy in front and B: to keep in his mirrors to lay on the pressure. "

Sorta, you should move left or right just before you hit the brakes, it's a bit safer but, more important, you may find that you can out brake him or he can make a mistake. You don't want to loose that chance.
A note on "Presenting yourself", if you do out brake the guy, make sure he can see you, i.e. you need to be almost even with the guy (especially with newer track drivers). If your front fender is only up to the rear door edge, back off or someone's going off the track.

You can fill his mirrors but a good percentage of HPDE drivers get a bit of tunnel vision especially at corner entry, present yourself if you are going to try and pass.


The second part, definitely a few attempts, this is a typical W2W scenario , you're too close, you're too far away, you didn't get on the gas early enough, etc. Wait until the next lap.
Again, passing on the straight is the best way to make a pass. That's why instructors teach "Slow in, Fast out". Even that 1% you mentioned may put you ahead of him at the end of the straight.

What Bosco said is correct, it is a bit advanced though (the tunnel vision thing with newer drivers). Chances are that you won't see that much until you're actually in a race. But if he does move inside, you may have the advantage (corner exit speed).

Bill32

Yep, great practice. I raced karts for 10 years.

mikeCsix

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...lies/lurk5.gif

autoxer6

ChumpCar offers some good practice. 20 passes in the first two laps last Sunday.

Supercharged111

Wouldn't you know it? None of the slowguys are here, so I'm battling as a rookie against the guys who know what they're doing. I did "win" the comp school race and thought I methodically took down my only closish competion until I got to the race class. I knew it'd be like this, but you really have to experience it for yourself. A 30 minute nonstop ***** to the walls session, miss one corner and get left behind. I got a lucky 2nd place finish when a few others went off track and actually played a functional defense. Cliff's notes: if you're considering the transition from W2W, DO IT!

pkincy

Aha, you have discovered the difference between HPDE and W2W, and that difference is huge.

There is no better adrenaline rush than being in a pack of loud snarling fighting cars all looking for the same spot on a narrow ribbon of asphalt.

Enjoy!

jbondfl

Perhaps THIS is the answer. If you know he is going to brake early you can move inside, brake late and be next to him as you enter. That will leave it up to you to be faster than he is on exit but this clearly sounds like a missed opportunity.

I don't W2W so I would give him the courtesy gap every time, just like you have been but this sounds like the next step for you.

Bill32

Glad you had a good time.

Keep in mind that you only get one move left or right in amateur racing. After that it is considered blocking.

5280Racer

WHen I was younger and racing I was told never to follow someone you felt was same or less of a driver as you. You want to try and pace with a better driver to improve yourself. I would get some kind of data acquisition to see where you are fast on tracks and learn to pass in those areas. Obviously stuffing someone in a corner is a rush… but you want to be professional about it…! racing is racing… being that its considered a gentleman's sport give that respect to your fellow racers. Personally I think CMC is adult bumper cars! and they enjoy pissing each other off….. Run your race and better yourself… if you are faster then everybody develop better faster defense and enjoy being in front!

Supercharged111

BUT establishing the line doesn't count as a move, that's how I protected 2nd on the last lap. I went into T11 (a right turn hairpin with an uphill exit) and he was up my *** and dove to the inside, so as I'm on the brakes I trail off and dive down to protect. This causes a sideways entry, but the front is where I need it so I transition to throttle which does nothing to fix the sideways situation. It gets worse, but the front is still where I need it and I'm now 2 cars wide sending a smoke show out the back of the car. When it tracks up, I have NO momentum and hug the inside on T12 (more of a kink that goes left). He bumps me right about here. Between T12 and T13 I establish myself mid track and then when he dives down the inside again, I burn my single move to defend the line, slam the door, and beat him to the checker. I asked him after and he said I did everything I was supposed to. After the race we weighed and, being a rookie, I figured I wasn't racing for points so I didn't throw the ballast in. WRONG! Doesn't matter much to me, I came out swinging on my first race that's for sure. Landed 3rd on the 3rd race just by staying on track more often than 4th and 5th place. I had the ballast installed by the 2nd race, so those ones stick. I'm now halfway to losing the R badge. CMC is definitely adult bumper cars, but most of it is banging doors mid corner and not actually taking people out. That's part of why I joined. Make no mistake Mike, there IS talent in the CMC class. I need to find just a few tenths per lap and the driver is running out of ideas! If the RA1 isn't in fact good to the last drop, then that might be the ticket because I was cording tires left and right this weekend and had to borrow a couple that I still corded at the end of my last run. I fear there is no going back to regular track days, THIS is the real crack pipe!

5280Racer

I haven't read or heard to many good reviews about the RA1's ... What size are you running? I have a bunch of Pirrelis in the garage.. I corded out my Hoosiers but I know why too...!! Rookie mistake on my part.


I'm looking forward to seeing you and Erich battle it out next year...!!!