Costs of Autocrossing a Corvette
02-21-2014, 11:19 PM
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Costs of Autocrossing a Corvette
I'm curious about the costs of autocrossing a corvette. I haven't autocrossed before, but I went to watch one recently and it looked like a lot of fun. I have some questions:
1) From what I can tell, it's often suggested that beginners start out using street tires, rather than R compound tires like the serious guys use. Am I correct there?
2) As a beginner, approximately how many autocross runs might I expect to get out of a set of tires? Assume summer performance street tires (Michelin pilot super sport or similar) and assume runs of about 1 minute. I'm hoping I could do, say, 10 events a year of 4 runs each, plus maybe 6000 miles of regular driving, and still get at least a year out of a set of tires. Perhaps that's not realistic though.
3) Are there other things (brakes?) that I will end up replacing much more often than normal when autocrossing a corvette? Do these add up to be significant amounts of money?
4) Would autocrossing something lighter and less power, say a Honda S2000, be a lot cheaper than using a Corvette? By a lot cheaper I mean 50 or 60% the cost of a Corvette.
1) From what I can tell, it's often suggested that beginners start out using street tires, rather than R compound tires like the serious guys use. Am I correct there?
2) As a beginner, approximately how many autocross runs might I expect to get out of a set of tires? Assume summer performance street tires (Michelin pilot super sport or similar) and assume runs of about 1 minute. I'm hoping I could do, say, 10 events a year of 4 runs each, plus maybe 6000 miles of regular driving, and still get at least a year out of a set of tires. Perhaps that's not realistic though.
3) Are there other things (brakes?) that I will end up replacing much more often than normal when autocrossing a corvette? Do these add up to be significant amounts of money?
4) Would autocrossing something lighter and less power, say a Honda S2000, be a lot cheaper than using a Corvette? By a lot cheaper I mean 50 or 60% the cost of a Corvette.
02-21-2014, 11:48 PM
#2
Race Director
I'm curious about the costs of autocrossing a corvette. I haven't autocrossed before, but I went to watch one recently and it looked like a lot of fun. I have some questions:
1) From what I can tell, it's often suggested that beginners start out using street tires, rather than R compound tires like the serious guys use. Am I correct there?
###yes###
2) As a beginner, approximately how many autocross runs might I expect to get out of a set of tires? Assume summer performance street tires (Michelin pilot super sport or similar) and assume runs of about 1 minute. I'm hoping I could do, say, 10 events a year of 4 runs each, plus maybe 6000 miles of regular driving, and still get at least a year out of a set of tires. Perhaps that's not realistic though.
### about right### but add some psi
3) Are there other things (brakes?) that I will end up replacing much more often than normal when autocrossing a corvette? Do these add up to be significant amounts of money?
###you will use some brake pad & rotor, but not that bad, talking 4 mi per event###
4) Would autocrossing something lighter and less power, say a Honda S2000, be a lot cheaper than using a Corvette? By a lot cheaper I mean 50 or 60% the cost of a Corvette.
### a little cheaper not 50%###
1) From what I can tell, it's often suggested that beginners start out using street tires, rather than R compound tires like the serious guys use. Am I correct there?
###yes###
2) As a beginner, approximately how many autocross runs might I expect to get out of a set of tires? Assume summer performance street tires (Michelin pilot super sport or similar) and assume runs of about 1 minute. I'm hoping I could do, say, 10 events a year of 4 runs each, plus maybe 6000 miles of regular driving, and still get at least a year out of a set of tires. Perhaps that's not realistic though.
### about right### but add some psi
3) Are there other things (brakes?) that I will end up replacing much more often than normal when autocrossing a corvette? Do these add up to be significant amounts of money?
###you will use some brake pad & rotor, but not that bad, talking 4 mi per event###
4) Would autocrossing something lighter and less power, say a Honda S2000, be a lot cheaper than using a Corvette? By a lot cheaper I mean 50 or 60% the cost of a Corvette.
### a little cheaper not 50%###
You have been warned.
02-22-2014, 06:28 AM
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To just go have fun cost is super minimal. You will wear tires and pads but not nearly enough to have to replace each year. Its kind of the point of autox. Moving to A comp tires (not r comp) is alot more expensive but you can get alot of autox out of a comps. At least 2 years. However if you want to be competitive then price starts to raise. Then you (like most of us) decide to do a track day..... then you are in trouble financially and you will get hooked. Its worth it though. You are the coolest kid in school after that.
02-22-2014, 10:10 AM
#5
Drifting
OP - you didn't mention which generation of Corvette you either have or are interested in . . .
I've autocrossed C4 (L98 Z51 and LT1 Z07), C5 (Z), and C6 (Z) Corvettes. All in the Stock category.
To answer your questions . . .
Tires - I've always run on R-compounds on my Corvettes, so I can't give specific commentary on street tires. That said, on my C5 Z06, I got 80 to 100 runs on them. Naturally performance degrades over time, and I was diligent about flipping the tires after approx 30 to 40 runs. I also run aggressive camber settings, so that helps with edge wear. I usually got a fresh set for the Solo Nationals, and that would last until the middle of the next season. Then I would get another fresh set and run 'em until Nationals. Oh . . . I had a co-driver as well.
Brakes - I never played with pads on my C5 or C6. That said, I got over four years of life on my C5 Z06 pads . . . probably 500+ runs, and still had pad life left.
"Lighter/cheaper" cars - one advantage of a Corvette is that it is robust for autocrossing usage. Not too things that can go wrong. On C5s, the biggest thing were front control arm bushings "squeezing out". Some folks had diff life issues, but mine was very robust. Some "lighter/cheaper" cars can have issues or, if they don't have camber adjustment, can wear out tires much quicker. So if you have something else in mind, research those carefully. Some generations of S2000s supposedly had issues with the metal by front sway bar mounts distorting and tearing. All cars have some sort of potential issues, just research it to make sure that you understand what the trade-offs are.
I really didn't incur any extra costs above/beyond normal maintenance. Maybe a little more diligent in fluid replacement, but that's about it. If you like to monkey around with alignments, learn to do it some of the adjustments yourself, and then it's a skill that carries you forwad to future vehicles.
I enjoy running Corvettes because they are quick cars in Stock form, and there is enough adjustability (camber, caster, toe, ride height/rake/corner balance), a good aftermarket for shocks/bars at a reasonable cost, decent tire life (because of camber adjustment), cheap source for OEM parts (check out the price of getting extra sets of wheels, for example), etc.
I've autocrossed C4 (L98 Z51 and LT1 Z07), C5 (Z), and C6 (Z) Corvettes. All in the Stock category.
To answer your questions . . .
Tires - I've always run on R-compounds on my Corvettes, so I can't give specific commentary on street tires. That said, on my C5 Z06, I got 80 to 100 runs on them. Naturally performance degrades over time, and I was diligent about flipping the tires after approx 30 to 40 runs. I also run aggressive camber settings, so that helps with edge wear. I usually got a fresh set for the Solo Nationals, and that would last until the middle of the next season. Then I would get another fresh set and run 'em until Nationals. Oh . . . I had a co-driver as well.
Brakes - I never played with pads on my C5 or C6. That said, I got over four years of life on my C5 Z06 pads . . . probably 500+ runs, and still had pad life left.
"Lighter/cheaper" cars - one advantage of a Corvette is that it is robust for autocrossing usage. Not too things that can go wrong. On C5s, the biggest thing were front control arm bushings "squeezing out". Some folks had diff life issues, but mine was very robust. Some "lighter/cheaper" cars can have issues or, if they don't have camber adjustment, can wear out tires much quicker. So if you have something else in mind, research those carefully. Some generations of S2000s supposedly had issues with the metal by front sway bar mounts distorting and tearing. All cars have some sort of potential issues, just research it to make sure that you understand what the trade-offs are.
I really didn't incur any extra costs above/beyond normal maintenance. Maybe a little more diligent in fluid replacement, but that's about it. If you like to monkey around with alignments, learn to do it some of the adjustments yourself, and then it's a skill that carries you forwad to future vehicles.
I enjoy running Corvettes because they are quick cars in Stock form, and there is enough adjustability (camber, caster, toe, ride height/rake/corner balance), a good aftermarket for shocks/bars at a reasonable cost, decent tire life (because of camber adjustment), cheap source for OEM parts (check out the price of getting extra sets of wheels, for example), etc.
02-22-2014, 04:20 PM
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1) From what I can tell, it's often suggested that beginners start out using street tires, rather than R compound tires like the serious guys use. Am I correct there?
2) As a beginner, approximately how many autocross runs might I expect to get out of a set of tires? Assume summer performance street tires (Michelin pilot super sport or similar) and assume runs of about 1 minute. I'm hoping I could do, say, 10 events a year of 4 runs each, plus maybe 6000 miles of regular driving, and still get at least a year out of a set of tires. Perhaps that's not realistic though.
3) Are there other things (brakes?) that I will end up replacing much more often than normal when autocrossing a corvette? Do these add up to be significant amounts of money?
4) Would autocrossing something lighter and less power, say a Honda S2000, be a lot cheaper than using a Corvette? By a lot cheaper I mean 50 or 60% the cost of a Corvette.
In your 40 runs per year scenario, there will be little difference.
If you keep the vette stock (street tires, no R-compounds) then you can run relatively cheap.
02-22-2014, 05:06 PM
#8
Drifting
I'll completely disagree with Hellrazr and make my points below. I started autocrossing my 2011 GS in August, and here was my progression..
1. Street tires are fun for a bit, but if you get bit by the bug, you will ultimately end up on r compounds, or if you do any engine mods to the vette and you are not competing in a stock class, you'll likely want to go to R compounds... I don't give a squat about a trophy as much as I care about getting myself to be a better driver, so thats why I compete.
R coumponds are SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper that stock tires, if you use scrubs from one of the many vendors here...
One of my rear PS2's had a nail when I first got the vette, cost to replace just that one tire was estimated at $400 for just one tire. I pay 125-150 per A6 scrub tire and they can last all season if you only autocross monthly.
2. If you stay on street tires, they should have no problem really meeting your request of a full season and street use and still have tread left unless you are a very agressive driver (in which case, you'll want the r compounds anyway)
3. No- You aren't rough enough in those 1 minute runs to really eat them up. Yes, they will wear faster than just street use, but the cost is negligible if you stick to stock brakes
4. Base cost of the cars are where you would save money assuming you are talking C6. S2k's hold a lot of value, but then you would likely spend a chunk of the initial savings in mods to it if you are a "competitive person.
My experience- I started in August- Ran 3-4 months, 2-3 events per month on street tires. (needless to say, if I run 3-4 events a month, I am hooked). I am a pretty aggressive driver. I knew I wanted "more". I ran across a deal on a set of CCW's on here with race tires on them. I made the plunge. shave 2.5 seconds off my personal best at my corvette clubs autox (we run the same course every month to track progress). Yeah, I was sold then...
The real cost inflator here is once you switch to race tires, you have to have a way to either trailer the vette, or have a chase car to get your race tires there as you can't drive race tires long distance on the street. So now the vette gets trailered in my case to the autocrosses and I do all the tire switching at home... I like having a truck and trailer, so it wasn't a dealbreaker for me. But I did enjoy "driving" the car to the event, which I can no longer do.
Hope that helps!
1. Street tires are fun for a bit, but if you get bit by the bug, you will ultimately end up on r compounds, or if you do any engine mods to the vette and you are not competing in a stock class, you'll likely want to go to R compounds... I don't give a squat about a trophy as much as I care about getting myself to be a better driver, so thats why I compete.
R coumponds are SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper that stock tires, if you use scrubs from one of the many vendors here...
One of my rear PS2's had a nail when I first got the vette, cost to replace just that one tire was estimated at $400 for just one tire. I pay 125-150 per A6 scrub tire and they can last all season if you only autocross monthly.
2. If you stay on street tires, they should have no problem really meeting your request of a full season and street use and still have tread left unless you are a very agressive driver (in which case, you'll want the r compounds anyway)
3. No- You aren't rough enough in those 1 minute runs to really eat them up. Yes, they will wear faster than just street use, but the cost is negligible if you stick to stock brakes
4. Base cost of the cars are where you would save money assuming you are talking C6. S2k's hold a lot of value, but then you would likely spend a chunk of the initial savings in mods to it if you are a "competitive person.
My experience- I started in August- Ran 3-4 months, 2-3 events per month on street tires. (needless to say, if I run 3-4 events a month, I am hooked). I am a pretty aggressive driver. I knew I wanted "more". I ran across a deal on a set of CCW's on here with race tires on them. I made the plunge. shave 2.5 seconds off my personal best at my corvette clubs autox (we run the same course every month to track progress). Yeah, I was sold then...
The real cost inflator here is once you switch to race tires, you have to have a way to either trailer the vette, or have a chase car to get your race tires there as you can't drive race tires long distance on the street. So now the vette gets trailered in my case to the autocrosses and I do all the tire switching at home... I like having a truck and trailer, so it wasn't a dealbreaker for me. But I did enjoy "driving" the car to the event, which I can no longer do.
Hope that helps!
Last edited by UrbanKnight; 02-22-2014 at 05:09 PM.
02-22-2014, 08:27 PM
#10
Safety Car
This sort of reminds me of an old saying. "Racing is cheap. Winning is expensive."
Richard Newton
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02-22-2014, 08:52 PM
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Also, there is a slippery slop with r-comps: brakes should be upgraded, suspension adjustments must be made, they really shouldn't be driven to and from track (tho many people do) so carrying them separately becomes necessary, etc.
And putting on r-comps doesn't make the driver faster, they make the car faster. Which is fine and dandy, but it's much cheaper to stay on streets tires until one can actually drive street tires to the limits. I've seen few people that are capable of doing this before switching to r-comps.
BTW, some of the vendors have street tire scrubs also, so they can be found at a discount too.
So, just another opinion to think about. I know my opinion of r-comps goes against the opinions of almost all the autox/track hobbyists.
02-22-2014, 11:23 PM
#13
Safety Car
This sort of reminds me of an old saying. "Racing is cheap. Winning is expensive."
Richard Newton
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Richard Newton
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02-23-2014, 08:50 AM
#14
Safety Car
Sorry, in my post I didn't go into detail why r-comps are more expensive. True, scrubs are available for reduced cost (don't forget to factor in mounting costs), but r-comps longevity is shorter than quality street tires. But, the cost is not just about tires: those type of tires will result in increased speeds and increased wear of many components on the car (rotors, brake pads, suspension components, wheels, hubs, etc).
Also, there is a slippery slop with r-comps: brakes should be upgraded, suspension adjustments must be made, they really shouldn't be driven to and from track (tho many people do) so carrying them separately becomes necessary, etc.
And putting on r-comps doesn't make the driver faster, they make the car faster. Which is fine and dandy, but it's much cheaper to stay on streets tires until one can actually drive street tires to the limits. I've seen few people that are capable of doing this before switching to r-comps.
BTW, some of the vendors have street tire scrubs also, so they can be found at a discount too.
So, just another opinion to think about. I know my opinion of r-comps goes against the opinions of almost all the autox/track hobbyists.
Also, there is a slippery slop with r-comps: brakes should be upgraded, suspension adjustments must be made, they really shouldn't be driven to and from track (tho many people do) so carrying them separately becomes necessary, etc.
And putting on r-comps doesn't make the driver faster, they make the car faster. Which is fine and dandy, but it's much cheaper to stay on streets tires until one can actually drive street tires to the limits. I've seen few people that are capable of doing this before switching to r-comps.
BTW, some of the vendors have street tire scrubs also, so they can be found at a discount too.
So, just another opinion to think about. I know my opinion of r-comps goes against the opinions of almost all the autox/track hobbyists.
At that time...there was no street tire class...so if you wanted to compete for points and WIN, you had to step up to R-comps.
I think for me it was seeing cars breaking and owners going through gyrations to get the car home that sold me on a trailer. I loved driving the Corvette to events...but the nagging worry in the background sold me on a trailer.
On more than one occasion my trailer was used to get another club members car home...there are things you have zero control over. U-joints break, engines quit, brakes fail. Most of the time it happens when it is most inconvienient: Sunday afternoon, late, 100+ miles from home and you need to be at work @ 8 am on Monday.
I don't disagree with you...learning the car on street tires is a great starting point, but if you are driven and want to be at the top of the timing sheets then you absolutely MUST go to R-comps (eventually). And yes...the R-comps put more stress on components, especially bushings and bearings!
But I have to agree with a poster earlier...once you go to R-comps, you'll NEVER be happy running anything else on course.
02-24-2014, 02:52 PM
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Thanks for all the responses guys -- much appreciated! It looks like most of the people in my local SCCA chapter autocross are running street tires, so I'm sure that would be fine for the foreseeable future. One question out of curiosity though -- why can't you drive r comp tires on the street?
02-24-2014, 04:26 PM
#17
R-compound tires are molded from a very soft rubber compound that does not respond well to normal road driving. You can easily damage the traction surface by driving over road debris which would not concern a street tire. Also, most R-compounds are molded without a tread design, so they can not evacuate water, or other muck, the same as a street tire. Finally, the rubber used to make an r-comp is more effected by heat and light than a street tire. Each time an R-comp is heated up, frozen, or stored in direct light, the rubber compound changes and the maximum available grip decreases. The decrease is slow, but on wide Corvette tires (especially the rears), it is possible for them to be ready for the trash pile due to heat cycles sooner than when the cords begin to show.
There are some exceptions. You could run Kumho V700, or Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. Those tires can handle some street driving, but they're nowhere near as capable on an autocross course as a Hoosier A6 or Kumho V710 would be.
There are some exceptions. You could run Kumho V700, or Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. Those tires can handle some street driving, but they're nowhere near as capable on an autocross course as a Hoosier A6 or Kumho V710 would be.
02-24-2014, 05:56 PM
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R-compound tires are molded from a very soft rubber compound that does not respond well to normal road driving. You can easily damage the traction surface by driving over road debris which would not concern a street tire. Also, most R-compounds are molded without a tread design, so they can not evacuate water, or other muck, the same as a street tire. Finally, the rubber used to make an r-comp is more effected by heat and light than a street tire. Each time an R-comp is heated up, frozen, or stored in direct light, the rubber compound changes and the maximum available grip decreases. The decrease is slow, but on wide Corvette tires (especially the rears), it is possible for them to be ready for the trash pile due to heat cycles sooner than when the cords begin to show.
There are some exceptions. You could run Kumho V700, or Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. Those tires can handle some street driving, but they're nowhere near as capable on an autocross course as a Hoosier A6 or Kumho V710 would be.
There are some exceptions. You could run Kumho V700, or Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. Those tires can handle some street driving, but they're nowhere near as capable on an autocross course as a Hoosier A6 or Kumho V710 would be.
02-24-2014, 08:42 PM
#19
Melting Slicks
As a relative newbie to autocross myself, I'll give you my less that sage advice:
Just get your butt out there!
I've been autocrossing for just about a year now. On street tires (old PS2ZPs....not competitive, then new PSS non RF, and significantly more competitive). Either way, I don't think you really need to start pouring money into it right away. Get out to a couple of events (I do the SCCA ones here in OC, Ca), and just learn the ropes. Hang out with the other Vette guys, and see what they're doing. Absorb information like a sponge....and ride along with everybody you can.
Once you've got your feet wet, then you can start looking at being competitive and pouring more money into it (i.e. getting a set of R comp tires, alignments, etc).
I guess what I'm saying is: Don't start making any barriers to entry for yourself. Just get out there and have a little fun....then you can decide how "serious" you want to get with it.
I can tell you the costs are relatively minimal if you just show up with your Vette and go. Just add a bit of pressure to your tires (to prevent rollover in the tight cornering and braking) and jump in. You'll find there's plenty of people out there that are friendly and are more than willing to help a newbie out.
Not a lot of technical info for ya, but that's my 2 cents!
Just get your butt out there!
I've been autocrossing for just about a year now. On street tires (old PS2ZPs....not competitive, then new PSS non RF, and significantly more competitive). Either way, I don't think you really need to start pouring money into it right away. Get out to a couple of events (I do the SCCA ones here in OC, Ca), and just learn the ropes. Hang out with the other Vette guys, and see what they're doing. Absorb information like a sponge....and ride along with everybody you can.
Once you've got your feet wet, then you can start looking at being competitive and pouring more money into it (i.e. getting a set of R comp tires, alignments, etc).
I guess what I'm saying is: Don't start making any barriers to entry for yourself. Just get out there and have a little fun....then you can decide how "serious" you want to get with it.
I can tell you the costs are relatively minimal if you just show up with your Vette and go. Just add a bit of pressure to your tires (to prevent rollover in the tight cornering and braking) and jump in. You'll find there's plenty of people out there that are friendly and are more than willing to help a newbie out.
Not a lot of technical info for ya, but that's my 2 cents!
02-24-2014, 09:25 PM
#20
My advice.
1. Try an event. You'll know by the end of your first event if you like it. It will have nothing to do with how competitive you were. It will have everything to do with how much you enjoy the group of people and the challenge of driving the sport.
2. Get an autocross friendly alignment. Don't go for a crazy aggressive alignment. Just get some negative camber in the front and a little less in the rear. This will allow you to drive on course quicker, and you won't wear out your tires as fast.
3. When you need tires, get some really good Street tires. Then change nothing else about your car until you can run an entire event with all your runs within a second of each other.
4. When you get to that point, you won't need our advice anymore.
1. Try an event. You'll know by the end of your first event if you like it. It will have nothing to do with how competitive you were. It will have everything to do with how much you enjoy the group of people and the challenge of driving the sport.
2. Get an autocross friendly alignment. Don't go for a crazy aggressive alignment. Just get some negative camber in the front and a little less in the rear. This will allow you to drive on course quicker, and you won't wear out your tires as fast.
3. When you need tires, get some really good Street tires. Then change nothing else about your car until you can run an entire event with all your runs within a second of each other.
4. When you get to that point, you won't need our advice anymore.