s'noJob

I get that the “line” is important to road racing. Stick to the line and decrease your lap times. Decrease your lap times and increase your wins.

I can see the importance of locking in on the line if one were to want to pursue road racing as a pastime or a career. But at times I wonder if some instructors are so in tune with the line that they concentrate on getting students to follow “their” line at the expense of teaching all the other fundamentals of road racing.

Have any of your instructors ever seemed to turn a track day into more “work” than an enjoyable experience?

And if you’re an instructor, have you ever caught yourself trying to drive a novice student’s vehicle yourself – in other words to have him/her drive like YOU would rather than to allow them to “experience driving their own car on a real racetrack” as some have come there to do?

UPDATE: See my post #19 for my further comments.

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waterplay

I had what I think was a great NASA instructor at VIR. He did work on staying true to the best “line” at first. But then he had me work on being inside and outside that line as if I was possible passing someone. That got me use to how I and the car would react in the less than ideal conditions. It also rained one day so I gain had to find a new line. We also worked a lot on when to brake and how hard for each turn. I do think that some instructors do concentrate on only using the proper line. But that could be because they know more about someone’s ability or someone’s car better than the owner. The drive does after all have their life in their hands and some drivers just need more time to develop before deviating from the best line. Just my .02

Hi Volts Z06

The job of the instructor, first and foremost is to teach you the PROPER way to drive on a track. That starts with proper hand and seating positions and teaching basics such as looking far enough ahead and driving the correct line. I also like to stress things such as good brake and throttle modulation. These are not very difficult concepts and a student should be able to demonstrate some grasp after his first day. I do believe this should never stop being fun for the student because it just goes against why we are here.

I will not allow a student to drive in a manner that compromises the safety of himself (which includes me) or the other drivers. I have had bad instructors but not because they insisted on proper technique but rather they just sat in the seat and said nothing. (It was clear they were there for a free track day and nothing more).

Most groups will tell you that if you have a problem with an instructor, speak to the chief instructor and he will switch you. Sometimes personalities clash. It's understandable. If you are speaking about one instructor then I think it's safe to assume this was the case. If you feel this has happened to you more than once then I think you should consider what I said above.

BryanPendleton

Teaching "the line" is a foundational step in developing performance driving skills. "The line" gives a driver basic strategies for going around a track. At the early stages, most drivers are not using anywhere near the available traction of the tires, so they have little to no slip angle in the tires. As a driver grows and advances, they will begin to introduce slip angles. At this stage "the line" will begin to change. Different braking point, different turn-in, different steering angle, different brake release, different on-throttle. The execution and timing of these events in order to utilize all available traction is ultimately what everyone is seeking to perfect. Once you have mastered the ability to balance a car at this level, then you have the endless pursuit of the unachievable perfection that we all seek out. Drivers can then use their car mastery skills to experiment with the various inputs to determine impact on lap times.

BryanPendleton

I would anticipate that an instructors experiences and preferences (for better or for worse) will always show up to some extent in his/her teaching, but the fundamentals should still be there and should align with the organization. I have had instructors that refuse to instruct FWD owners, because they have no practical experience in them.

You also need to make sure you clearly communicate your expectations to your instructor. Two weeks ago, I had a very experienced instructor that I loved. He was a racer. I am chasing club racing. We connected very well. He analyzed my driving very quickly and formulated a game plan on how to advance my skill further. I learned alot from him. Ironically, during lunch I was chatting with another driver and he was frustrated with his instructor. He said his instructor was "taking the fun out". Turned out we had the same instructors. I ask the driver if he had communicated his expectations to his instructors. Short story was on the following day, my instructor thanked me for helping to open up the communication between his other student and himself. My instructor said they had a blast on Sunday, just having fun, in the rain no less.

MarkDFW

Some instructors believe the line is the line is the line. I don't entirely agree with that. I paid up to have a pro driver/coach work with me for a day, and I learned more from him in that day than I have learned from all my other instructors. I'm not knocking those other instructors. This guy has been a pro driver/coach for years and years and drives at the 24 hours of Daytona almost every year.

At my local tracks the good instructors have beginners start off with a line that is slightly modified in danger areas. As you become advanced, there is a better/faster line to take. Obviously if you go W2W, lines are more dynamic as you deal with traffic.

The line you'll be coached on from an instructor that does HPDE only is going to probably vary a bit from a coach with racing experience.

Bill32

This should all start with the interview before the first session "What are your goals today?".

Our criteria is:
1. Safety
2. Fun

Very, very few of my students just want
“experience driving their own car on a real racetrack” , if they do, fine, as long as they are doing it safely.

But the correct line is extremely important to Performance Driving Skills.

I don't drive student's car's but I take many students out in my car and drive the correct lines, braking points, etc. at 60%.
I only put a fast lap in if they request it.

Bill32

Absolutely

Fortunately, the number of students that I've had to bring into the hot pit for a "little talk" is extremely low. 1 or 2 out of 100.

Bill32

Good posts Brian, Yes, some of this is on the student too, communication is essential.

wtb-z

I worry more about "a line" than "the line" although the latter is a major plus.

Bill32

That's true.

The thing with instructors is that most are volunteers.
A good percentage are HPDE drivers only (not always a bad thing) but some guys only have a couple years experience in HPDE when they become instructors.

AND training instructors isn't easy. I train and evaluate new instructors for SCCA (18 years as an instructor). The school is only one day, a lot of classroom and some track time evaluation.

The first lap I do with a new instructor is "Show me the correct line at 50% speed". The number of new guys who get close to the correct line is about 50%. So we work on that a bit and them move to the other on-track stuff.

These guys get a one day school and that's about it.

So, there's instructors and then, there's instructors.
But, at our events, we need 25 -30 instructor volunteers.

As said above, if you have a problem with your instructor, talk to the chief instructor. Believe me, the chief instructor wants to know, even if it's just a personality clash.

Bluefire

Well said. Thank you.

Bluefire

I was fortunate enough to have and HPDE instructor/Racer when I first started. I'm convinced his experience greatly accelerated my learning curve.

FASTFATBOY

Depends on what level of student you are in the car with, a novice student needs to learn the line and where he should be on track at all times...to me its like a tether....the student gets to far off pull him back in.

The line is the basis for all learning tools to be added, for me anyway. Thats what I build on as far as turn in, braking, track out and acceleration go. If a student gets off line in 2-3 consecutive corners I slow him down to get him back to learning. To me this means his brain is overloaded with information. At this point he is in survival mode and not learning a thing.

For a novice I always take the track map and draw the line I want him to run on it, it works as he can study it in a relaxed environment between sessions.

Upper students I let them run for a while and see what they do and how they process, then add to if if I can see a spot I can add to.

Mark2009

Well, I tend to view a track day as "work" that ideally leads to the satisfaction of a job well done and useful lessons learned (and hopefully nothing broken). But then I view the track and the car as something to be mastered, so that's probably a more hard core view than many or most.

As to an "enjoyable experience", well I tend to lean towards Charlie Sheen's lead in that area

LTC Z06

And the track can change as you get faster so learning the line is an important safety aspect.

SouthernSon

The 'line' allows the car suspension to take a set as you push the limits of the tires. This allows really good feedback for you to understand your control inputs at 'the limit'. You, also, learn how to 'play' the suspension with adding throttle in the turn for exit while at 'the limit'. The 'line' also may be related to the lay of the pavement itself as in avoidance of off camber. In wet weather one must know the line in order to avoid slick rubber build up in certain instances. And, in the final analysis, if you want to pass someone in a hurry, find someone that is not driving the line, does not understand car control and is simply out on a Sunday drive. So what is it like to not drive the line? Car simply pogoes here and there on the suspension as one darts this way and that at less than optimal speed with no setup for exit from one turn into the entry for the next while confusing those behind that might want to pass because they do, indeed, know the fast way around the track and are driving on the 'line' trying to figure out how to set up the pass on the driver wandering all over the place.

Seriously, it is important.

SouthernSon

X10. I have had two or three drivers that just wanted to experience the track and not really do more than a sunday drive. That is fine with me. I figure they paid their money and this is how they want to experience the track. I then relegate my coaching to simply watching out for other vehicles and trying to keep them out of harm's way without inducing anxiety. Unfortunately, they leave the track not knowing any more about car control than when they first came.

s'noJob

Well, as the OP I’ve gotta say I’ve learned more about the importance of knowing the line than I could have imagined.

It sounds like whether one is looking to become an outright wheel to wheel competitor or just out for a Sunday drive, knowing the line, ANY proper line, is critical. After all, one follows some sort of line in everyday driving – not just the center of the lane they’re in – specially in passing on the highway. The line is the building block from which all other skills are developed.

I never really meant to sound like I was complaining about instructors so much as to ask about their practices, but after rereading my initial post, I can see how it may have seemed that way. From the responses, it looks like I need to spend more time talking to the instructor before I put ‘er in gear on the starting grid.

I’ve had multiple instructors (hyperdrives) and I have had no instructors (parade laps, open houses.) It just seemed that when I was on my own, I had a blast driving a road course, teaching myself a good line and learning from my mistakes (screeching tires, correcting near spinouts.)

When I was with the instructors it sometimes felt like I was simply hands and feet operated through the radio in my helmet. Great instructors would gently guide me with statements like, “OK, now for Turn Three you’re gonna want to ease up on the throttle … gently apply some brake … and begin your turn riiiiiight – HERE. Now as you unwind, you’re gonna want to ease back onto the throttle,” etc. Good stuff.

I’ve had pros offer their turn-by-turn advice after watching some in-car videos of my sessions, which was great, and I was appreciative of such gestures.

But once I had an instructor whose directions sounded like this. “Brake! Brake! Brake! … Turn! Turn! Turn! … Gas! Gas! Gas!” I was so exhausted after that session I said to myself, “Wow, that was a lot of work.” When I realized the guy took the fun out of the experience, it actually drove me away from the sport for five years. I returned after a parade lap session and caught the bug again.

So any time I had professional assistance, it seemed like I was never driving as I “should,” I was expected to drive on “their” line, and although subconsciously I was probably learning a ton of info, it just didn’t seem like I was having as good a time as driving solo, even though I was making mistakes.

About my “experience driving your own car on a real racetrack” statement, I was just making parody of how a novice might interpret advertising for open track days. Trust me, it was funnier in my head. My track car doubles as my daily driver and I always put safety first and foremost.

Anyway, I thank you all for your thoughtful tips and comments. I’ll be at VIR next Saturday for NASA’s Hyperdrive. I’ll keep your advice in mind and be sure to tell my instructor my intentions. See you on “The Hill!”
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Rob31

I try to establish the students ability first . Teach a track etiquette , (holding their line ,blend lines )Then I work on the line . Watching the student for fatigue .25-30 minutes is a long time for some people .
Coaching is a different skill set than winning races ,or setting fast times .
I tell them up front ... Im not looking for speed Im looking for what you know .