blkbrd69

Good god you could get alot by stagering blocks. 10+ degrees may be a bit much??

In my case I only needed a extra .080" shim on the front 2 left mounts to get what I wanted.

Bill Dearborn

Thought I would try and clear some things up from my previous posts. With the Van Steel Plates the max and min camber can be achieved by using the bolt hole that is .175 from the edge. If you place that hole toward the outside of the car you will get max neg camber. If you place that hole toward the inside of the car you will get minimum neg camber. If you place it toward the inside at the front of the LCA and toward the outside at the rear of the LCA you have effectively moved the lower ball joint forward thus increasing positive caster. If you use the bolt holes .255 from the edge you get a smaller range of adjustment.

How I got 0 camber with the Van Steel plates was after several track days I was changing from my track alignment using Pfadt plates to a street alignment using the Van Steel plates. The track alignment was set up with the Pfadt plates in the max position with two 2mm and one 1 mm shim behind the front of the UCAs to give some positive caster. Camber achieved with these settings was -.2.5 degrees.

I went with the Hardbar/Van Steel plates to see if could get more adjustment range than the Pfadts provided since I am running Conti Slicks which require -3 or more camber.

As I went back to a street alignment I replaced the Pfadt plates with the Van Steel plates and chose the hole that was .255 from the edge. Without changing the shims behind the UCAs I got a reading of 0 degrees of Camber. Previously when I had the Pfadts set for the street the minimum neg camber I could get was -.6 and that was with another set of 2 mm shims behind the front and rear arms of the UCAs. Obviously the Van Steel plates allowed more adjustment. After I did that I changed the rear Van Steels so the .255 holes were to the outside and camber came in at - 1 degree. The adjustment was made by loosening the bolt and turning the plates 180 degrees the same way I used to do with the Pfadts. I am thinking I will make one more adjustment by adding some more 2 mm shims behind the UCA arms which should put me right around -.5 camber and a fair amount of caster. That will keep my PS2 ZPs happy for a while when on trips.

Based on comments in this thread it looks like there were several Pfadt kits for the front of the car. My kit only came with 4 plates that had offset bolt holes and a large Z in each. Instructions said to mount the plate with the Z inward for max camber and outward for less camber. The rear kit came with a lot more plates and the plates had notches in them to indicate which ones had more offset. There is no way to confuse these plates with ones required for the front of a Z06 since the Z06 plates are quite a bit wider.

Bill

Ramo7769

Sorry for the delay, I've been down for a bit due to wisdom teeth extraction.

Bill, thanks for the insight. Do you have a rough idea how much rear camber you got with the Van Steel blue plates? My current plan is to install them in the rear using the holes .255 from the edge (less than max available). I've filed the corners down to allow them to fit and will install. I'm hoping for ~-1.5 degrees, but afraid it will be higher.

Since I did not order the stud kit from Hardbar and it took me 5 weeks to receive the camber kit, I decided to buy the GM front camber and stud kit made by GM from Guldstrand Motorsports. http://www.guldstrand.com/scripts/pr...?idproduct=353 I've been pretty happy with Dick Guldstrand's service and will also likely buy some revalved Bilstein Sport dampers in time. They revalve in house.

I will report back once I install everything and have my favorite alignment shop set me up. I'll report final alignment settings for reference purposes.

Bill Dearborn

I haven't actually used the Hardbar rear plates yet. I still have the Pfadt plates back there and am happy with them. They provide a wide range of adjustability since they have a bunch of plates with various increments in hole location. For instance I have a 4 notch plate on the left and a 2 notch plate on the right. Each notch moves the hole ~ .1 in. The plates go from 0 to 6 notches. With equal washers/shims on top I can tune my rear camber nicely. I have never used the 6 notch plates that would give me max rear camber.

The issue with the Pfadt plates in front has always been the range of adjustment since there is only one plate with one hole. Even using the hole that is furthest inward the lower control arm is pushed further out than the Pfadt plate can move it. Using the hole that is closest to the edge is far more than the Pfadt plates can move the arm. When flipped the other way they provide even less camber than the Pfadt plates do when flipped.

Bill

dbratten

That kit from Guldstrand looks identical to the Pfadt kit -- down to the included Loctite.

I also use the Pfadt plates but do not have a Z06 so, as you know, the rear mounting is not the same. Your Z06 has a rear mount like on the front where on the base model the top mount is not adjustable -- being a bolt-through. I also have to run different number (offset) plates from side to side to accommodate the subframe being off center-line. This is common.

The advantage with the Z06 is that you can shim the top to equalize the camber where on the base we do not have that option. I have been able to pry my subframe over to where I have less than one notch difference between sides. I have never run more than a 4 notch in the rear. Also, by reversing the notches it is easy to go to zero camber for street use.

I am not following what you are trying to achieve in the front. On another thread you mentioned having <neg 1 degree camber but with a lot of caster. With the Pfadt plates on the front of a friend's Z06 we easily had 2 - 2.5 neg camber. I am also not following when you say you flipped the plates? The lower front plates marked with the "Z" are designed to only be set with the hole to the outside. All additional adjustment is done on top with washers and/or shims.

With the modified dog-bones for the top a-arm mount that was included in the Pfadt poly-bushing kit I can get close to -3.5 camber in front.

There's a real good chance that I am just not understanding what all you're saying. Sorry, if that's the case.

--Dan

trackboss

For those of you with not long enough studs, you can simply buy longer bolts to replace the studs. I believe they are 10mmx1.0.

Ramo7769

The picture definitely looks just like the Pfadt kit. I've only bought the front kit ($220) which includes plates and stud kit from Guldstrand and he stated that the parts are sourced from GM. I will follow up with a picture of the parts once the arrive.

dbratten

I made my own using SS all-thread. I think a 3' piece was $10. I cut them to length, spot welded a point on each to act as a jam, and Loctited them in. Had them now for 4+ years with no problem while changing alignment many, many times.

I also bought a bunch of 1/8" U shims and typically change between running 4 to 1 or 2 behind the dog-bone. I have enough thread for 5 shims plus washers that I leave in place to adjust caster. I have a range of zero to -3.5 camber with 7 caster.


--Dan

dapopa9

Bill, is this for a C6 Z06?

I currently have a C6 Z06 with PFADT Camber kit installed but need more negative camber than it allows. Are you saying the Hardbar kit allows you to run more negative camber? If so this is what I've been looking for

Can you measure your PFADT camber plates? Just want to see the size/offset difference compared to the HardBar kit that was measured earlier in this thread.

Also, do you have a web link to the kit you purchased?

froggy47

Well it's a small world.

The GM/Guldstrand camber kit is (drum roll) the Pfadt kit I bought a few years ago direct from Pfadt. A great kit IMO still on my car as I type.

Probably bought up for pennies on the dollar. Nice work if you can get it.

Nothing against GM/Dick, it's just business. I get it.

12zo

I just had the hardbar front and rear installed. On the ZO6 the blue hardbar kit on the rear in the less aggressive hole resulted in -1.7 camber being obtainable.

Bill Dearborn

Dan,

Sorry, I wasn't very clear on what I was trying to say.

However, I do need to point out with the Pfadt Plates it is perfectly fine to place the Z toward the inside or the outside all you are doing is placing a bolt in a location the same way the stock cams would do. When I bought the Pfadt Plates a couple of years ago I measured where things went so I could know the adjustment limits. If you remove all shims from behind the upper control arms and place the Pfadt plates with the Z inwards the maximum camber will be just past -2.5 degrees. If you rotate the plates on the bolts so the Z is outward the minimum camber you can achieve is ~ -1.1 unless you use shims behind the UCAs. This was a little disappointing to me since I could get more negative camber with the stock cams.

The most important thing was to return th
I had to do was loosen the bolts so there was room to move the plates out of the grooves in the front cradle and then turn the plates on the bolts, reinsert the plates in the cradle and tighten the bolts.


As for my objective I am working on several things at once.

I did 5 track days during April. After my last track event last year I did a street alignment with camber around -.6 degrees so I wouldn't be wearing out the edges of my $2200 PS2 ZPs when driving long cross country distances.

That meant I had to change back to a track alignment so before the first event this year. To do that I flipped the Pfadt plates from having the Z out to having the Z in. Removed some shims from behind the front UCAs and changed Pfadt plates (increased the number of notches) in the rear. Set the toe and thrust angles and called it done.

However, I run Conti Slicks on the car which are happier if the camber is -3 or above which I couldn't achieve with the Pfadt plates. Before the event I ordered the Hardbar/VanSteel plate kit to see if it would change things. However, I didn't get it soon enough to install before leaving.

When I finished the 5 days I knew I wouldn't be doing any more track events for several months so i wanted to go back to a street alignment. All I did at the rear of the car was add some shims to decrease camber to what i wanted, set the toe and thrust angle and said good good enough. However, at the front of the car I also wanted to install the new plates in the front. That meant I had to do some experimenting with plate positions at the front and rear bolts of the front LCAs.

As you may have gathered from other posts in this thread the Hardbar/Vansteel plates are designed differently than the Pfadt plates. They have two off center holes drilled into them. One hole is almost all the way to the edge of the plate and the other is inside of it. The space separating them is probably just enough so the plate doesn't break if a bolt is one and a lot sideways force is applied to it. I call the bolt hole closest to the center the inner hole and the bolt hole closest to the outside edge of the plate the outer hole.

If the UCAs have no shims behind them, insert a bolt in the outer hole and place it outwards in the cradle you can get a lot of negative camber (I didn't get around measuring this). If you use the inner hole and place it outwards in the cradle you will still get around -2.5 degrees of camber. You can also treat both the Pfadt and Hardbar plates like the cams they are replacing so you can maximize camber at the rear mounting point of the front LCA and minimize it at the front mounting point of the LCA. This gives a lot of built in caster and a fair amount of negative camber.

However, I didn't use the outer holes in the new plates I only used the inner holes. If you add shims behind the front dogbone of the UCA you can reduce camber and get even more caster (I got +11 degrees). However, the camber will still be in the -.9 to -1.1 range. I knew that if I maximized the number of shims behind each UCA I would get a little less camber while decreasing caster by a couple of degrees. I was pretty sure caster would still be in the +9 region. That is how I came about the question of how much caster is too much caster. Based on a couple of comments about having the steering oscillate in this thread and in several internet searches I decided to change the arrangement of the Hardbar plates. I used the inner holes in the plates, placed those bolt holes inward, pulled all of the shims from behind the UCAs and saw very small camber angles while the caster on one wheel was fine the caster on the other was way off. That meant I had to add shims behind the front dogbone of that UCA. Not something I wanted to do with such a low camber number but it turned out OK.

I think the next time I take it apart I will use the inner hole for the rear mount and the outer hole for the front mount. Both placed inward on the cradle. This will give me a little more positive caster while hopefully not reducing the negative camber any more.

Long story. I have 6 (8 1/2x11) pages of front alignment settings notes taken over the last 8 days. By the time I am done experimenting I should be back to where I was with the Pfadt Plates. Turn plates, move UCA shims as noted, set toe and thrust and put the car on the trailer. When done at the track turn plates back, move shims to where they were before, set toe and thrust and drive the car around town and on trips. Once I get the tie rods marked with some green and red paint I should be able to make the adjustments with only one measurement to be sure they are correct.

Bill

Bill Dearborn

Pfadt Plate is 47.86 mm (1.882 in) wide with the shortest distance from the edge of the bolt hole to the edge of the plate being 12.87 mm (.507 in). The rear (or smaller) Vansteel plate inner hole is about half this distance to the edge of the plate and outer hole at .175 is even less distance. I can't say the Z06 wider front (Red) Vansteel plates have the same hole to edge measurements since they are mounted on the car but they look about the same. Basically, the Hardbar/Vansteel plates move the LCA location bolt at least .66 of an inch more from minimum to maximum camber. They will push the LCA out an additional .3 in past the Pfadt plate.

I purchased mine from the Hardbar web site just before it went down. Gary had the plate only kit (no studs) on the site for $240. The closest thing I can find now is the Vansteel web site which has the full kit including studs listed as the product of the month here: http://www.vansteel.com/

Bill

dbratten

Bill,

Thank you for taking the time to explain what you're going through. I just measured my Pfadt plates with all (F&R) being 1.74" wide. On the front LCA the 6 notch plate's outermost edge of the bolt hole is .12" from the side of the plate. I leave these plates in all the time on the front.

I choose to only adjust the UCA shims when moving from race to street alignment. To do this, I made the studs on top longer to fit up to 3/4" of drop-in shims (plus some washers that I use to set caster (to then leave alone.) I just hit the UCA nuts with my butterfly air ratchet to loosen, switch shims, and tighten. It goes very fast. With this setup I can get to zero camber for street with 5/8" of shims, if I wish, and up to 3-3.5 neg. for track with all 5 shims removed.

I then only need to adjust toe -- which can take up to 24+ flats per side (4 rotations) to keep at slight toe-in as I prefer. Your method does save on toe adjustment but, as you do, I just count the flats and then throw a tape measure on it to check.

Good luck getting yours dialed in.

--Dan

Bill Dearborn

Dan, you must have a different Pfadt kit than I have. There are only eight front plates just enough to fit the 4 bolts. They are all identical. No extras and no notches that indicate varying amounts of offset like the rear plates have. With your plate only being 1.74 inches wide you must not have a Z06 as their cradle is built to handle larger cams. I wonder if that is a reason why the kits are different?

Bill

dbratten

Yes, apparently. I have a base model which comes with 8 of the 6-notch plates to use on the front. I did not measure my friend's Z06 when I installed his camber kit but it did have the Z marked plates for the front. We didn't do the rear as he ran out of time.

--Dan

froggy47

I was not aware there are different kits. Does the "Z" mean z06 kit?

ErnieN85

apparently totally different. I was told when I order extra plates that the Z06 front cradle slots were wider.
The base kit has the same width plates front & back with the offset of the holes marked with notches each notch denotes one MM offset.
my kit came with quite a few with offsets from 1mm to 6mm

froggy47

Hmm, good to know.

argonaut

Now that's interesting and may explain the problem I had. My car is a 99 FRC. The plates I got (from LG but I believe they are the Van Steel) would not fit in the slots properly. They fit width wise but the tops of the slots on the cradle on my car are rounded and the radius is to small so that the plates would not sit high enough in the slots. To solve the problem I used a mill to chamfer the corners of the plates and allow them to sit high enough in the slots.