On track brake failure, 2012 ZO6
07-18-2014, 07:49 PM
#21
Former Vendor
JRitt@essex
Yea what he said.
So I have had my hands on many different calipers in my days. From 20k Brembo kits to stock PBR calipers and everything in between. My suggestion now for the track guys up to a semi-pro level, is the Essex Endurance kit. I feel strongly that it is the best kit out there for the money. I would even go as far as saying for under 5000 grand per axle nothing will touch it.
Sold two kits in the past week, one to Belgium and one to California
To the OP: if you are planning on buying new GM calipers, you better get after them now. Because they have been on back order with GM for some time now. Have the last 8 digits of your vin to give the parts guys.
Randy
www.dougrippie.com
Yea what he said. So I have had my hands on many different calipers in my days. From 20k Brembo kits to stock PBR calipers and everything in between. My suggestion now for the track guys up to a semi-pro level, is the Essex Endurance kit. I feel strongly that it is the best kit out there for the money. I would even go as far as saying for under 5000 grand per axle nothing will touch it.
Sold two kits in the past week, one to Belgium and one to California
To the OP: if you are planning on buying new GM calipers, you better get after them now. Because they have been on back order with GM for some time now. Have the last 8 digits of your vin to give the parts guys.
Randy
www.dougrippie.com
Last edited by Randy@DRM; 07-18-2014 at 07:52 PM.
07-19-2014, 06:38 PM
#22
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Oct 1999
Location: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
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Took my '12 ZO6 to WAtkins Glen. Pedal straight to the floor near the end of the first session into the bus stop. Exciting but all is well.
I have the DBA two-piece rotors, Motul 600, OEM lines, Quantum cooling kit. All essentially brand new. Carbotech 12's up front, 10's in back.
When I got back to the pits there was brake fluid all over both of the calipers and wheels. Not enough to where the reservoir was really low or anything. Just enough to ruin the calipers.
Wheels off, bleed, confirm the bleeders were on firm and reset them, cleaned it all up and went back out.
Second session I was doing the left foot double pump prior to corner entry and while I never lost the pedal, it got soft so I went in.
Same deal basically.
The DBA rotors have three paint markings in them. The hottest one is 1160. It has changed color so my rotors are really hot. I am threshold braking and doing so from 156mph so far but nothing others aren't doing as instructors.
So, I guess I have three issues.
Very hot rotors
Leaking bleeders..
Lastly, now I have ruined the paint on the calipers. Big time.
I've also lost faith in these brakes. I do the brake work. Have for a long time. We all know what a proper bleeder torque feels like. Somehow, these obviously got over torqued and now the caliper bleeder seat must be deformed. Replacing them seems silly, without an upgrade. Upgrades are way expensive.
I believe the bleeder issue is either a weak point by design or they were improperly serviced at some point before I owned it. It just isn't that hard to do right. The car is going in to the dealer Friday but I have no idea how they will react. I bought it in Detroit and this is the first vist locally to a dealer for issues. I think they should be replaced. They are nasty looking and will always leak now.
Looking at StopTech, AP, Brembo etc. but not liking the cost.
I have the DBA two-piece rotors, Motul 600, OEM lines, Quantum cooling kit. All essentially brand new. Carbotech 12's up front, 10's in back.
When I got back to the pits there was brake fluid all over both of the calipers and wheels. Not enough to where the reservoir was really low or anything. Just enough to ruin the calipers.
Wheels off, bleed, confirm the bleeders were on firm and reset them, cleaned it all up and went back out.
Second session I was doing the left foot double pump prior to corner entry and while I never lost the pedal, it got soft so I went in.
Same deal basically.
The DBA rotors have three paint markings in them. The hottest one is 1160. It has changed color so my rotors are really hot. I am threshold braking and doing so from 156mph so far but nothing others aren't doing as instructors.
So, I guess I have three issues.
Very hot rotors
Leaking bleeders..
Lastly, now I have ruined the paint on the calipers. Big time.
I've also lost faith in these brakes. I do the brake work. Have for a long time. We all know what a proper bleeder torque feels like. Somehow, these obviously got over torqued and now the caliper bleeder seat must be deformed. Replacing them seems silly, without an upgrade. Upgrades are way expensive.
I believe the bleeder issue is either a weak point by design or they were improperly serviced at some point before I owned it. It just isn't that hard to do right. The car is going in to the dealer Friday but I have no idea how they will react. I bought it in Detroit and this is the first vist locally to a dealer for issues. I think they should be replaced. They are nasty looking and will always leak now.
Looking at StopTech, AP, Brembo etc. but not liking the cost.
Bill
Last edited by Bill Dearborn; 07-19-2014 at 07:14 PM.
07-23-2014, 11:08 AM
#23
Former Vendor
Member Since: Aug 2005
Location: Lewisville TX
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
Bill, Randy, and Jeff all make very good points..
It all goes back to trying to push a OEM brake setup for a 'street car' to race car standards on track. Given a fast enough track and a good enough driver you can literally melt the brakes off of the car in a day.
I have in the past seen C6Z's by the end of a day on track melt the stock lines off of the metal fittings, and burn the pressure seals out of the calipers.
So if you get the calipers hot enough the alum. can expand and contract enough that the bleeders can work loose. The caliper can loose its strength and you will never get a solid pedal again. It is a good brake for a street car, and entry level track driver but not for the experienced driver. The calipers are not strong enough, the pads are not thick enough to shield the pistons from the heat, the rotors don't have enough ventilation....the list goes on and on.
Don't screw with a different fluid or stainless lines, start doing your research into brake kits like what Jeff is speaking about, Wilwood, StopTech, or Brembo. All of them have their good points and bad points.
It all goes back to trying to push a OEM brake setup for a 'street car' to race car standards on track. Given a fast enough track and a good enough driver you can literally melt the brakes off of the car in a day.
I have in the past seen C6Z's by the end of a day on track melt the stock lines off of the metal fittings, and burn the pressure seals out of the calipers.
So if you get the calipers hot enough the alum. can expand and contract enough that the bleeders can work loose. The caliper can loose its strength and you will never get a solid pedal again. It is a good brake for a street car, and entry level track driver but not for the experienced driver. The calipers are not strong enough, the pads are not thick enough to shield the pistons from the heat, the rotors don't have enough ventilation....the list goes on and on.
Don't screw with a different fluid or stainless lines, start doing your research into brake kits like what Jeff is speaking about, Wilwood, StopTech, or Brembo. All of them have their good points and bad points.
07-24-2014, 06:34 PM
#24
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks for the responses guys. I appreciate the time you took to do so.
I am leaning towards the AP Endurance caliper kit.
I recognize the OEM ZO6 calipers are not good enough. I am beginning to run the car hard and one experience of the pedal to the floor is enough. Dogged a bullet on that one. No more.
While Jeff's description of the AP set was very convincing, I have done some other research and searching and know there are other good options.
I run the car 99% on track.
I had been doing 35 track days a year, now it looks like 20 is my max. I run in the instructor group for a few clubs. While my nature is to progress slow to a cars limits, I am obviously finding the OEM caliper limits and push it at advanced club day levels.
All that said, I think the AP setup is what I'm looking for. I had Brembo's on my prior car and they were awesome but the dust seal replacement got to be a pain. Pad replacement wasn't bad but took a good 25 minutes a side, jacking and all. At least. I like the idea of a purpose built caliper with no dust seal, the weight savings is good I know, I do have light CCW wheels.
So, I have a few questions. What are the negatives for the AP Endurance setup? Does the lack of dust seals pose other issues? Do knock back springs need replacement and how easy is the pad/spring replacement?
Do competing setups, Wilwood, Stoptech, Brembo etc have issues or benefits I'm not seeing over the AP set?
Lastly, and probably the biggest question to Jeff and others is pad selection.
I set the car up with DBA 5000 floaters up front and 4000 fixed rotors in back. Carbotech 12's up front and 10's in back. I was seeing 1100 plus F temps up front with a cooling hose kit.
If I go to AP, or another brand, and keep my back OEM calipers, Carbotech 10 pads and DBA 4000 rotors, what pad would work best up front?
I had never run the Carbotechs before. I was a Brembo and Pagid guy. Great setup on a GT3. I can tell you I was impressed going Carbotech. Good feel, bite and deep brakes.
Keeping the backs the way I have them to save (a lot) of money, what front pad would complement that on AP, or other, calipers up front?
Thanks.
I am leaning towards the AP Endurance caliper kit.
I recognize the OEM ZO6 calipers are not good enough. I am beginning to run the car hard and one experience of the pedal to the floor is enough. Dogged a bullet on that one. No more.
While Jeff's description of the AP set was very convincing, I have done some other research and searching and know there are other good options.
I run the car 99% on track.
I had been doing 35 track days a year, now it looks like 20 is my max. I run in the instructor group for a few clubs. While my nature is to progress slow to a cars limits, I am obviously finding the OEM caliper limits and push it at advanced club day levels.
All that said, I think the AP setup is what I'm looking for. I had Brembo's on my prior car and they were awesome but the dust seal replacement got to be a pain. Pad replacement wasn't bad but took a good 25 minutes a side, jacking and all. At least. I like the idea of a purpose built caliper with no dust seal, the weight savings is good I know, I do have light CCW wheels.
So, I have a few questions. What are the negatives for the AP Endurance setup? Does the lack of dust seals pose other issues? Do knock back springs need replacement and how easy is the pad/spring replacement?
Do competing setups, Wilwood, Stoptech, Brembo etc have issues or benefits I'm not seeing over the AP set?
Lastly, and probably the biggest question to Jeff and others is pad selection.
I set the car up with DBA 5000 floaters up front and 4000 fixed rotors in back. Carbotech 12's up front and 10's in back. I was seeing 1100 plus F temps up front with a cooling hose kit.
If I go to AP, or another brand, and keep my back OEM calipers, Carbotech 10 pads and DBA 4000 rotors, what pad would work best up front?
I had never run the Carbotechs before. I was a Brembo and Pagid guy. Great setup on a GT3. I can tell you I was impressed going Carbotech. Good feel, bite and deep brakes.
Keeping the backs the way I have them to save (a lot) of money, what front pad would complement that on AP, or other, calipers up front?
Thanks.
07-24-2014, 06:38 PM
#25
Track Junky
The tires will determine which Carbotechs you need. Hoosier R6 were good enough to sneak XP-12/10's on my old C6 street car. Street tires will probably work ok with 12/10, but probably now R compounds and definitely not slicks.
07-24-2014, 07:13 PM
#26
Racer
Thread Starter
I like them a lot, I don't have a Hoosier budget but may consider slick takeoffs at some point. They seem affordable.
There are no trophies in my future at DE's. I get a lot of bang for the buck out of RComps. I've run MPSC's and Nitto NT01's on my GT3 and had a blast.
The Carbo 12/10 setup I ran on 888's was impressive to me. Right until the pedal went to the floor which started all this.
I just need a recommendation on a pad that would complement my existing rear Carbo 10 and DBA 4000 setup to go on an AP Endurance front caliper.
07-24-2014, 08:29 PM
#27
Track Junky
I knew I forgot something. I am running Toyo 888's for fitment. 295/335.
I like them a lot, I don't have a Hoosier budget but may consider slick takeoffs at some point. They seem affordable.
There are no trophies in my future at DE's. I get a lot of bang for the buck out of RComps. I've run MPSC's and Nitto NT01's on my GT3 and had a blast.
The Carbo 12/10 setup I ran on 888's was impressive to me. Right until the pedal went to the floor which started all this.
I just need a recommendation on a pad that would complement my existing rear Carbo 10 and DBA 4000 setup to go on an AP Endurance front caliper.
I like them a lot, I don't have a Hoosier budget but may consider slick takeoffs at some point. They seem affordable.
There are no trophies in my future at DE's. I get a lot of bang for the buck out of RComps. I've run MPSC's and Nitto NT01's on my GT3 and had a blast.
The Carbo 12/10 setup I ran on 888's was impressive to me. Right until the pedal went to the floor which started all this.
I just need a recommendation on a pad that would complement my existing rear Carbo 10 and DBA 4000 setup to go on an AP Endurance front caliper.
07-25-2014, 07:56 AM
#28
Supporting Vendor
So, I have a few questions. What are the negatives for the AP Endurance setup? Does the lack of dust seals pose other issues? Do knock back springs need replacement and how easy is the pad/spring replacement?
Do competing setups, Wilwood, Stoptech, Brembo etc have issues or benefits I'm not seeing over the AP set?
Lastly, and probably the biggest question to Jeff and others is pad selection.
CL Brakes
RC8
RC6
RC6E
RC5+
Ferodo Racing
DSUNO
DS1.11
DS3000
DS2500
Hawk Performance
DTC-70
DTC-60
HPS
Performance Ceramic
From our website:
Again, please keep in mind that the above is not an exhaustive list, and that there are many other pad compounds available in this shape from other manufacturers. Please note however, that the pad shape we use in our caliper is available in a variety of radial depths (heights), and that Essex recommends the 54mm radial depth version. Another common radial depth in this pad shape is 51mm. The 51mm depth pads will fit into our caliper, but with some discs you will be leaving an unswept 'ring' around the disc near the attachment points to the hat (the pad will not hang as low in the caliper). Leaving a portion of the disc face unswept can create a temperature differential across the face of the disc, and doing so could lead to premature disc cracking.
Pad Cross Reference
Since we do not sell most of the brands listed below, Essex cannot guarantee the fitment of these pads in the AP Racing CP5060 caliper. Based on our research however, we believe that these are the appropriate cross references. You should verify with either the manufacturer or your installer prior to purchasing any of them.
ALCON PNF4489X532.4
AP RACING CP3894D54
Brembo= B51
Carbotech= CT5555
EBC= (DP2006, DP3006C, DP4006)
Endless= RCP086 (D52)
HAWK HB109 0,71
Pagid= U1903
PFC 7790.XX.18
Porterfield= AP7790
Project Mu= F1090 (D52.5)
Again, keep in mind this is only a partial list...there are others as well!
I set the car up with DBA 5000 floaters up front and 4000 fixed rotors in back. Carbotech 12's up front and 10's in back. I was seeing 1100 plus F temps up front with a cooling hose kit.
If I go to AP, or another brand, and keep my back OEM calipers, Carbotech 10 pads and DBA 4000 rotors, what pad would work best up front?
I had never run the Carbotechs before. I was a Brembo and Pagid guy. Great setup on a GT3. I can tell you I was impressed going Carbotech. Good feel, bite and deep brakes.
Keeping the backs the way I have them to save (a lot) of money, what front pad would complement that on AP, or other, calipers up front?
If I go to AP, or another brand, and keep my back OEM calipers, Carbotech 10 pads and DBA 4000 rotors, what pad would work best up front?
I had never run the Carbotechs before. I was a Brembo and Pagid guy. Great setup on a GT3. I can tell you I was impressed going Carbotech. Good feel, bite and deep brakes.
Keeping the backs the way I have them to save (a lot) of money, what front pad would complement that on AP, or other, calipers up front?
If you keep your Carbotech rear 10 pads, I'd recommend going with something like the Ferodo DS1.11 or DSUNO pad in the front. They're both outstanding, and more and more guys here on the forum are using them. They're the most popular choices being run in our kits. They have good bite, wear nicely, and are fairly easy on discs.
07-25-2014, 08:23 AM
#29
Burning Brakes
I have Jeff's AP Racing Endurance setup on the front of my C5 with stock rear brakes. I've only managed to spend 6 days at the track this year thus far so don't have a lot of data to go on but I'm thouroughly impressed. The best thing about them is you can just kind of stop worrying about brakes. They are there and ready to go all the time. On track performance is as you'd expect - powerful and fade free, good hard pedal and confidence inspiring. But its the off track where they really shine for me. Pad changes are simple...but so what....you rarely need to change them. 6 days on the same Hawk DTC70 pads and they are still going - probably 2-3 days left in them and no need to flip them - hurray!!! Seriously the between session maintenance is nill and to me that is awesomness.
07-25-2014, 08:40 AM
#30
Supporting Vendor
Member Since: Oct 2002
Location: Cleveland OH
Posts: 50,209
Received 490 Likes
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St. Jude Donor '11,'13
I knew I forgot something. I am running Toyo 888's for fitment. 295/335.
I like them a lot, I don't have a Hoosier budget but may consider slick takeoffs at some point. They seem affordable.
There are no trophies in my future at DE's. I get a lot of bang for the buck out of RComps. I've run MPSC's and Nitto NT01's on my GT3 and had a blast.
The Carbo 12/10 setup I ran on 888's was impressive to me. Right until the pedal went to the floor which started all this.
I just need a recommendation on a pad that would complement my existing rear Carbo 10 and DBA 4000 setup to go on an AP Endurance front caliper.
I like them a lot, I don't have a Hoosier budget but may consider slick takeoffs at some point. They seem affordable.
There are no trophies in my future at DE's. I get a lot of bang for the buck out of RComps. I've run MPSC's and Nitto NT01's on my GT3 and had a blast.
The Carbo 12/10 setup I ran on 888's was impressive to me. Right until the pedal went to the floor which started all this.
I just need a recommendation on a pad that would complement my existing rear Carbo 10 and DBA 4000 setup to go on an AP Endurance front caliper.
Carbotech™ XP24™
XP24™ is the pinnacle compound of the extremely successful XP™ Series of compounds engineered by Carbotech™. This compound is based on the same fundamentals that exist in all other Carbotech™ formulations. XP24™ has even more initial bite, more overall bite, and more torque along with the most linear torque curve we have ever offered. The thermal characteristics are of the highest Carbotech™ offers along with one of the highest coefficient of friction ratings offered by anyone in the braking industry. This compound is the longest wearing compound Carbotech™ offers as it was originally engineered for endurance applications at the highest pro racing levels. This revolutionary new compound has been extremely successful with open wheel, closed wheel, sprint and endurance applications. XP24™ has a temperature range of 400°F to 2000°F+ (204°C to 1093°C+). Carbotech™ XP24™ is NOT recommended for use as a daily driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise along with the necessary heat required to work properly.
__________________
Adam Adelstein
Amp’D Autosport.com
Internet's largest retailer of Carbotech Performance Brake Pads.
PH:216-780-8825.
Email: sales@ampdautosport.com
Web Site & Direct ordering http://ampdautosport.com/
All major CC and Pay Pal accepted.
Check out Promo code:z28
Adam Adelstein
Amp’D Autosport.com
Internet's largest retailer of Carbotech Performance Brake Pads.
PH:216-780-8825.
Email: sales@ampdautosport.com
Web Site & Direct ordering http://ampdautosport.com/
All major CC and Pay Pal accepted.
Check out Promo code:z28
07-25-2014, 12:38 PM
#31
Former Vendor
Member Since: Aug 2005
Location: Lewisville TX
Posts: 16,898
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
Pagid is a good pad, but hard to find in the states all of the time for other calipers than Porsche.
Ferodo pads work well....they produce a lot of dust and the DS3000 and DS3000+ pads are now at least a 20 year old pad technology.
We ran Ferodo pads back in the TransAm days...then moved to PFC, and have been with Cobalt Friction since 2005 and have yet to find anything better on track. You will find Cobalt pads on most of the Indy cars, IMSA/ALMS, and GrandAm teams now. I should have no issues having a Cobalt fitment to those calipers and can supply them with the kit as we are a dealer for the Essex/AP kits.
Ferodo pads work well....they produce a lot of dust and the DS3000 and DS3000+ pads are now at least a 20 year old pad technology.
We ran Ferodo pads back in the TransAm days...then moved to PFC, and have been with Cobalt Friction since 2005 and have yet to find anything better on track. You will find Cobalt pads on most of the Indy cars, IMSA/ALMS, and GrandAm teams now. I should have no issues having a Cobalt fitment to those calipers and can supply them with the kit as we are a dealer for the Essex/AP kits.
07-25-2014, 01:51 PM
#33
Supporting Vendor
DS1.11
Several brake pads on the market boast 'ceramic' technology. DS1.11 is the real thing. It is based upon a chemical family known as Siloxanes. Unlike carbon based materials, siloxane chains do not decompose at high temperatures and so DS1.11 keeps on working up to the highest temperatures a brake pad could ever see. That means it won't fade and has excellent life, the best in the Ferodo Racing range. Moreover the performance remains exactly the same throughout the pad's (long) life. It is formulated to provide a very flat friction profile at a medium/high level of friction. The pad compression is very low, always, and so pedal travel is short and consistent.
The main characteristics of DS1.11 are:
Heavy duty endurance material
Applications - touring car, GT, single seat
Average friction coefficient 0.46 over working temperature range of 200°-700°C
Long life
Very kind to discs
DSUNO
DSUNO is the latest heavy duty racing material from Ferodo Racing. It has replaced DS2.11 and is already race proven in GT, touring car, Formula & rally. The technical objective for the material was to provide a high friction output, whilst improving pad and disc life and to offer excellent modulability throughout the brake event. The latter means the risk of wheel lock is significantly reduced compared to other pads with the same high nominal friction coefficient, without any loss of output. This is the ultimate feel-good pad.
Heavy duty semi-endurance material
Applications - touring car, GT, single seat, rally
Average friction coefficient 0.48 over working temperature range of 200°-700°C
Very controllable torque output
Very kind to discs
Long life
08-15-2014, 01:45 PM
#34
Racer
Thread Starter
Half way though installing the AP Endurance brake kit.
Very clean install. The pad installation is a two bolt removal. Incredibly nice.
My only question so far is the braided brake lines. Seems to be really only one way they go on. I screwed them into the car hard lines so that end is fixed obviously.
The banjo fitting on the caliper end can only be rotated so far. As you sit in front of the right front caliper I have it turned up to about a 11:00 orientation. Seems like it will be ok there. Clears the A-arm and allows some flex.
I'll jack up the other side and see with the wheel turned each way.
Pads are the Ferodo DS1.11.
Thanks for all the input guys.
My DBA T3 5000 2piece rotors and Carbotech XP12 pads have ten 20-30min sessions on them including the bedding session and the two the pedal fade occurred on which were obviously shortened. They will be for sale shortly. To say they have two days real use would not be an exaggeration.
Thinking the rotors will be $650 (vs $900) and pads $250 (vs $339).
Dennismcohan@comcast.net if interested. PM's responded to last. I will have pics and a separate thread when I get this project all done.
Very clean install. The pad installation is a two bolt removal. Incredibly nice.
My only question so far is the braided brake lines. Seems to be really only one way they go on. I screwed them into the car hard lines so that end is fixed obviously.
The banjo fitting on the caliper end can only be rotated so far. As you sit in front of the right front caliper I have it turned up to about a 11:00 orientation. Seems like it will be ok there. Clears the A-arm and allows some flex.
I'll jack up the other side and see with the wheel turned each way.
Pads are the Ferodo DS1.11.
Thanks for all the input guys.
My DBA T3 5000 2piece rotors and Carbotech XP12 pads have ten 20-30min sessions on them including the bedding session and the two the pedal fade occurred on which were obviously shortened. They will be for sale shortly. To say they have two days real use would not be an exaggeration.
Thinking the rotors will be $650 (vs $900) and pads $250 (vs $339).
Dennismcohan@comcast.net if interested. PM's responded to last. I will have pics and a separate thread when I get this project all done.
08-15-2014, 04:41 PM
#35
Supporting Vendor
Member Since: Oct 2002
Location: Cleveland OH
Posts: 50,209
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St. Jude Donor '11,'13
We have all compounds for AP calipers.
Carbotech™ 1521™
The Carbotech™ 1521™ is our high performance street compound. The 1521™ compound is known for its release and modulation, along with unmatched rotor friendliness. 1521™ is also a very low dusting and low noise compound with an excellent initial bite. This compound's excellent linear torque production provides incredible braking force without ABS intervention. Carbotech™ 1521™ operating range starts out at ambient and goes up to 800°F (426°C+). 1521™ is suitable for ALL street cars, perfect for your tow vehicle or fleet vehicle. Carbotech™ 1521™ is NOT recommended for ANY track use.
Carbotech™ AX6™
The AX6™ is specifically engineered for Autocross applications. A high torque brake compound delivering reliable and consistent performance over a very wide operating temperature range of 50°F to 1000°F + (10°C to 537°C+). The advanced compound matrix provides an excellent initial bite, high coefficient of friction at lower temperatures along with very progressive brake modulation and release characteristics. Many drivers use the AX6™ for street driving as well, even though Carbotech™ doesn't recommend street driving with AX6™ due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise. AX6™ is NOT recommended as a race compound in most applications.
Carbotech™ XP8™
A high torque brake compound with a wide operating temperature range of 200°F-1250°F+ (93°C to 676°C+). Carbotech™ XP8™ is the first of our racing compounds. Good initial bite at race temperatures, high coefficient of friction, excellent modulation and release characteristics. Extremely high fade resistance and very rotor friendly. Perfect for track day use with any tire and can still be driven safely to and from the track. Carbotech™ does NOT recommended XP8™ as a daily driven street pad due to elevated levels of dust and noise. Carbotech™ XP8™ is a great compound on the front & rear of most open wheel and sports racers.
Carbotech™ XP10™
When Carbotech™ unleashed the XP10™ to the general public it immediately gathered multiple regional, divisional, and national championships. The XP10™ has a very strong initial bite with a coefficient of friction and rotor friendliness unmatched in the industry. Fade resistance is in excess of 1475°F (801°C). XP10™ still maintains the highly praised release, excellent modulation and rotor friendliness that have made all Carbotech™ compounds so successful. Carbotech™ XP10™ is not recommended as a daily-driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise.
Carbotech™ XP12™
Another highly successful XP™ series compound with an excellent initial bite, torque and fade resistance over and above the XP10™ compound. XP12™ has temperature range of 250°F to 1850°F+ (121°C to 1010°C+). The XP12™ has that excellent Carbotech™ release and modulation that has made all other Carbotech™ compounds so successful. The XP12™ is more rotor aggressive than XP10™, but compared to the competition the XP12™ is still very rotor friendly. XP12™ is NOT recommended for use as a daily driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise.
Carbotech™ XP20™
The latest iteration of the highly successful XP™ series of compounds. XP20™ is a step up from the highly successful XP16™ compound. With an extremely aggressive initial bite, linear torque curve and excellent fade resistance the XP20™ is another major step in progression of the highly successful XP™ series line of compounds from Carbotech™. XP20™ has a temperature range of 275°F to 2000°F+ (135°C to 1093°C+). Carbotech™ XP20™ maintains our tradition of having the outstanding release and modulation that has made all other Carbotech™ compounds so successful. Carbotech™ XP20™ is NOT recommended for use as a daily driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise.
Carbotech™ XP24™
XP24™ is the pinnacle compound of the extremely successful XP™ Series of compounds engineered by Carbotech™. This compound is based on the same fundamentals that exist in all other Carbotech™ formulations. XP24™ has even more initial bite, more overall bite, and more torque along with the most linear torque curve we have ever offered. The thermal characteristics are of the highest Carbotech™ offers along with one of the highest coefficient of friction ratings offered by anyone in the braking industry. This compound is the longest wearing compound Carbotech™ offers as it was originally engineered for endurance applications at the highest pro racing levels. This revolutionary new compound has been extremely successful with open wheel, closed wheel, sprint and endurance applications. XP24™ has a temperature range of 400°F to 2000°F+ (204°C to 1093°C+). Carbotech™ XP24™ is NOT recommended for use as a daily driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise along with the necessary heat required to work properly.
Carbotech™ RP2™
The RP2™ compound was engineered for endurance racing based on our highly successful XP™ Series formulations. RP2™ has strong initial bite, a little less modulation than our XP12™, but still maintains the rotor friendliness of our XP™ series compounds. RP2™ has great fade resistance with a temperature range of 250°F to 1450°F+ (121°C to 787°C). RP2™ is as rotor friendly as our XP™ series compounds. Carbotech™ RP2™ is NOT recommended for use as a daily driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise.
Carbotech™ 1521™
The Carbotech™ 1521™ is our high performance street compound. The 1521™ compound is known for its release and modulation, along with unmatched rotor friendliness. 1521™ is also a very low dusting and low noise compound with an excellent initial bite. This compound's excellent linear torque production provides incredible braking force without ABS intervention. Carbotech™ 1521™ operating range starts out at ambient and goes up to 800°F (426°C+). 1521™ is suitable for ALL street cars, perfect for your tow vehicle or fleet vehicle. Carbotech™ 1521™ is NOT recommended for ANY track use.
Carbotech™ AX6™
The AX6™ is specifically engineered for Autocross applications. A high torque brake compound delivering reliable and consistent performance over a very wide operating temperature range of 50°F to 1000°F + (10°C to 537°C+). The advanced compound matrix provides an excellent initial bite, high coefficient of friction at lower temperatures along with very progressive brake modulation and release characteristics. Many drivers use the AX6™ for street driving as well, even though Carbotech™ doesn't recommend street driving with AX6™ due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise. AX6™ is NOT recommended as a race compound in most applications.
Carbotech™ XP8™
A high torque brake compound with a wide operating temperature range of 200°F-1250°F+ (93°C to 676°C+). Carbotech™ XP8™ is the first of our racing compounds. Good initial bite at race temperatures, high coefficient of friction, excellent modulation and release characteristics. Extremely high fade resistance and very rotor friendly. Perfect for track day use with any tire and can still be driven safely to and from the track. Carbotech™ does NOT recommended XP8™ as a daily driven street pad due to elevated levels of dust and noise. Carbotech™ XP8™ is a great compound on the front & rear of most open wheel and sports racers.
Carbotech™ XP10™
When Carbotech™ unleashed the XP10™ to the general public it immediately gathered multiple regional, divisional, and national championships. The XP10™ has a very strong initial bite with a coefficient of friction and rotor friendliness unmatched in the industry. Fade resistance is in excess of 1475°F (801°C). XP10™ still maintains the highly praised release, excellent modulation and rotor friendliness that have made all Carbotech™ compounds so successful. Carbotech™ XP10™ is not recommended as a daily-driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise.
Carbotech™ XP12™
Another highly successful XP™ series compound with an excellent initial bite, torque and fade resistance over and above the XP10™ compound. XP12™ has temperature range of 250°F to 1850°F+ (121°C to 1010°C+). The XP12™ has that excellent Carbotech™ release and modulation that has made all other Carbotech™ compounds so successful. The XP12™ is more rotor aggressive than XP10™, but compared to the competition the XP12™ is still very rotor friendly. XP12™ is NOT recommended for use as a daily driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise.
Carbotech™ XP20™
The latest iteration of the highly successful XP™ series of compounds. XP20™ is a step up from the highly successful XP16™ compound. With an extremely aggressive initial bite, linear torque curve and excellent fade resistance the XP20™ is another major step in progression of the highly successful XP™ series line of compounds from Carbotech™. XP20™ has a temperature range of 275°F to 2000°F+ (135°C to 1093°C+). Carbotech™ XP20™ maintains our tradition of having the outstanding release and modulation that has made all other Carbotech™ compounds so successful. Carbotech™ XP20™ is NOT recommended for use as a daily driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise.
Carbotech™ XP24™
XP24™ is the pinnacle compound of the extremely successful XP™ Series of compounds engineered by Carbotech™. This compound is based on the same fundamentals that exist in all other Carbotech™ formulations. XP24™ has even more initial bite, more overall bite, and more torque along with the most linear torque curve we have ever offered. The thermal characteristics are of the highest Carbotech™ offers along with one of the highest coefficient of friction ratings offered by anyone in the braking industry. This compound is the longest wearing compound Carbotech™ offers as it was originally engineered for endurance applications at the highest pro racing levels. This revolutionary new compound has been extremely successful with open wheel, closed wheel, sprint and endurance applications. XP24™ has a temperature range of 400°F to 2000°F+ (204°C to 1093°C+). Carbotech™ XP24™ is NOT recommended for use as a daily driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise along with the necessary heat required to work properly.
Carbotech™ RP2™
The RP2™ compound was engineered for endurance racing based on our highly successful XP™ Series formulations. RP2™ has strong initial bite, a little less modulation than our XP12™, but still maintains the rotor friendliness of our XP™ series compounds. RP2™ has great fade resistance with a temperature range of 250°F to 1450°F+ (121°C to 787°C). RP2™ is as rotor friendly as our XP™ series compounds. Carbotech™ RP2™ is NOT recommended for use as a daily driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise.
08-15-2014, 04:48 PM
#36
Pro
Dennis 11 o'clock is about where you want those lines. I had mine at 6 originally but then the lines aren't quite long enough at full lock. Enjoy the new setup and let me know what you think after WGI2.
08-15-2014, 05:03 PM
#37
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Oct 1999
Location: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
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Half way though installing the AP Endurance brake kit.
Very clean install. The pad installation is a two bolt removal. Incredibly nice.
My only question so far is the braided brake lines. Seems to be really only one way they go on. I screwed them into the car hard lines so that end is fixed obviously.
The banjo fitting on the caliper end can only be rotated so far. As you sit in front of the right front caliper I have it turned up to about a 11:00 orientation. Seems like it will be ok there. Clears the A-arm and allows some flex.
I'll jack up the other side and see with the wheel turned each way.
Pads are the Ferodo DS1.11.
Thanks for all the input guys.
My DBA T3 5000 2piece rotors and Carbotech XP12 pads have ten 20-30min sessions on them including the bedding session and the two the pedal fade occurred on which were obviously shortened. They will be for sale shortly. To say they have two days real use would not be an exaggeration.
Thinking the rotors will be $650 (vs $900) and pads $250 (vs $339).
Dennismcohan@comcast.net if interested. PM's responded to last. I will have pics and a separate thread when I get this project all done.
Very clean install. The pad installation is a two bolt removal. Incredibly nice.
My only question so far is the braided brake lines. Seems to be really only one way they go on. I screwed them into the car hard lines so that end is fixed obviously.
The banjo fitting on the caliper end can only be rotated so far. As you sit in front of the right front caliper I have it turned up to about a 11:00 orientation. Seems like it will be ok there. Clears the A-arm and allows some flex.
I'll jack up the other side and see with the wheel turned each way.
Pads are the Ferodo DS1.11.
Thanks for all the input guys.
My DBA T3 5000 2piece rotors and Carbotech XP12 pads have ten 20-30min sessions on them including the bedding session and the two the pedal fade occurred on which were obviously shortened. They will be for sale shortly. To say they have two days real use would not be an exaggeration.
Thinking the rotors will be $650 (vs $900) and pads $250 (vs $339).
Dennismcohan@comcast.net if interested. PM's responded to last. I will have pics and a separate thread when I get this project all done.
As I said in a previous post I went to Wilwood 600+ fluid, rear W4A calipers and did the tape at the same time. That is when I stopped having problems with brake fluid boiling.
With all of the cooling additions I did to the front of the car I was highly suspicious that my boiling issues might be coming from the rear Vs the fronts that is why I taped the brake line and installed aftermarket rear calipers.
Bill
08-15-2014, 08:39 PM
#39
Racer
Thread Starter
I can't say for sure that this resolved any problems but it is a cheap fix that takes more time than money. While you have the car up in the air get under it and trace the brake lines to the rear of the car. Where they pass near the driver's side catalytic converter place some reflective duct tape over them.
As I said in a previous post I went to Wilwood 600+ fluid, rear W4A calipers and did the tape at the same time. That is when I stopped having problems with brake fluid boiling.
With all of the cooling additions I did to the front of the car I was highly suspicious that my boiling issues might be coming from the rear Vs the fronts that is why I taped the brake line and installed aftermarket rear calipers.
Bill
As I said in a previous post I went to Wilwood 600+ fluid, rear W4A calipers and did the tape at the same time. That is when I stopped having problems with brake fluid boiling.
With all of the cooling additions I did to the front of the car I was highly suspicious that my boiling issues might be coming from the rear Vs the fronts that is why I taped the brake line and installed aftermarket rear calipers.
Bill
Bill, thanks for the info. I finished up before reading this so your ideas will have to wait for me. My issue was leaking front caliper bleeders anyways but I'd like to do all I can. Off to Watkins Glen this weekend. Hopefully this setup will perform better than the OEM fronts.
See you there Streetspeed! The brake line deal sorted itself out. They seem to be in a good position with the banjo fitting bolted to the caliper really pretty much 12:00. Maybe just rearward of that.
The Ferodo pads smoke like you are on fire when bedding them. Impressive. Hopefully the DS1.11 work well with the back Carbotech XP10 pads.
08-15-2014, 08:42 PM
#40
Pro
Unfortunately I won't be there. My little baby boy F1 racer is 11 days old today, and I knew I wouldn't be getting away quite that soon after his birth. My car is being race prepared in the mean time. You prolly won't see me again till Tremblant 