jd86L98

I am posting this in the racing section, because this car will see HPDE track events...

I am in the market for my next Vette, and I am torn between a well sorted and modified C5Z with a C5R441 stroker built by a very reputable shop or a stockfish C6Z. I say stockfish because in CA I can't get away with a big cam and full-length headers. I played the 'smog dance' with my last C5, and it's not a dance I want to do this time around. The C5 I am considering is setup to pass CA smog and still makes 535/535 at the tire, oh, the beauty of cubic inches. I am expecting an $8 to $10k difference between what I will be paying for the C5Z and what the current market supports for 2006-2008Z's. As mentioned above, this car will see the track and spirited street driving, it will not be a daily driver. The C5 is pretty much in like new condition and sports 335 R888's with a mini-tub, KW coil overs, PFDAT sways, and Wilwoods on all four corners. It's a nice setup. I am considering a black C6Z with a baby cam and upgraded interior. The C6 is alluring because it is more comfortable (driving to the track); I love the wide-body look, and will have better resale down the road. However, I am concerned with the LS7 head issue, even though the current owner says the heads were within spec when the cam went in, the C6 has 51,000 miles on it. C5R441 only has 4,500 miles on it; car has 52,000. As I write this, I think the C5 is the way to go, what do you guys think?

smellya

Excessively modded car or a little modded car. IDK what I would do if I had to do it over. I bought the caged track car with forged motor with 6k miles and 10 track hours and all the supporting mods, brakes, suspension and what not. Since then I have a new motor, tranny, wheels, seats and what not. Don't cry later on when you have to fix **** that has broke on your track car or getting **** fixed on your track car is even more fun. Have fun and go out and play... I keep in touch with the old owner of my car. He is happy that I track it as much as I can. But I think he is more happy he does not own the headache anymore.

RDnomorecobra

that c5 sounds fun. if you're looking for a vote I'd go that way.

jd86L98

I went through the mod process on my last C5, and I'm only considering cars that are already modded. I know I will get the track bug, but I'm time limited and only see myself participating in maybe six track days next year. I think either car will hold up well, eventually the transmission on the C5Z will have to be upgraded.

LateBreak

To me, the C5 is more fun as a track toy for several reasons. Cheaper initial investment, cheaper to fix if you crash it, easier to cage (steel frame) if you ever go that route, cheaper consumables if you run 17" tires, etc. Not to mention, as you said, the LS7 engine concerns....

ponycar

The C6Zs are the dominant HPDE cars around Virginia. Crazy fast. Most of the guys run with just a harness bar while out running everything. No thanks. I have a caged C5Z06. I would rather give a few point bys and feel much safer. If I wanted a faster car I would get a Grand Sport with a lightly modded engine. They are fast, well balanced and have a steel frame. Look what the wheel to wheel and time trialers run.

Bill Dearborn

I went from a stock engine C5Z to a C6Z. The difference is amazing. The cars weigh about the same but the C6Z can get more rubber to the ground. Both cars need more tire in the front when pushed around a road course. The hot setup on C6Zs is 18x11 front wheels with 315 tires and 18x13 rear wheels with 345 tires. No body modifications needed. If you are serious about tracking the car I would upgrade to Wilwoods (or more expensive BBKs) at all 4 corners. The C6Z suspension is more adjustable than the C5Z suspension. You can get a lot of camber in the front (I have seen over 4 degrees on my car) and the rear suspension has adjustable UCAs unlike the C5s fixed UCAs. Yes, you have to worry about the head issue but you can get it checked and fixed if need be. That would be something to be done as part of the sale. If you will be running the car on tracks with long high G left hand turns then you might need to upgrade the dry sump oil tank depending on the year of the car. The same goes for the C5. All LS engines are subject to the same problem that is why Accusump's and aftermarket dry sump systems are so popular on C5s. The initial LS7 dry sump was GM's attempt to resolve the issue but the LPE tank can fix the inadequacy of the intial design. 09 and newer cars aren't a worry.

It sounds like the C5 engine is healthy enough and may outperform the cammed LS7 but I suspect it is a close horse race. The C5Z with the M12 transmission will come off corners harder but will suffer from the big gap from 3rd to 4th. The C5Z transmission is perfect for autocrossing since it means you can run most courses in 2nd gear but it isn't as good for road course work. The C6Z transmission is poor for autocrossing (same gear ratios as base C5) but is fantastic on a road course. If need be when pulling off a corner and wanting to avoid a shift up and then down on a short straight it will pull to 123 mph before hitting the stock rev limiter. Yes, it might be a little better from a power standpoint to shift a few hundred rpm sooner but shifting takes time and concentration and it sometimes is worth avoiding the hassle. A higher rev limiter setting on the C5Z helps but the engine/car is still limited by the gear ratio.

On the way to and from the track the C6Z is just a better ride and I think it looks better. I had my two C5s 6 years each. A 97 I bought new and an 03Z that I bought used. They were both great cars but their time is long over. The C6Zs time is coming to an end but the last C5 was built over 10 years ago while the last C6Z was built 2 years ago. Where does that put you on the resale side of things? A heavily modded C5Z that would be hard to peddle 10 years ago due to the mods but even harder to peddle since it is also over a decade old.

Bill

jd86L98

Bill, Thank you for taking the time for such a comprehensive response. I have read your responses on other threads in the past and respect your opinion. I agree with many of your points and the C5 does have a BBK (Wilwood) and 335's in the rear (minitub), 295 upfront. Also, KW coilovers and PFDAT bars.

I am partial to the M6 transmission ratios with the LS torque, and this 441 is a torque monster 535ft/lbs at the tire, but the more usable MN12 6th gear was kind of fun on the freeway.

I am concerned with the resale, if I buy the C5 I will have to be prepared to keep it for quite some time and just enjoy it for what it is. This will be the first car I actively track, I have a total of four track days under my belt, all instruction based courses. So, my skill level isn't to the point where I will be driving either car to their limits any time soon.

I love the wide body look of the C6, but I think the C5 is timeless and the Z is a unique Vette. If I could afford it a Z06 Carbon edition with PTM would be ideal.

LateBreak

I think resale will be much less of an issue with C5's than it is with C4 and earlier cars. The C5 is in a league of its own compared to a C4, and they'll always have value as great street & track cars. That said, a used C6Z has probably taken its biggest depreciation hit already so maybe the drop you see will be less...

jd86L98

The owner of the C5 won't budge on his price and its close to $30k, the car is extremely clean, but I am having a hard time justifying spending $30k on a C5.

RDnomorecobra

sounds like a lot but it only has 4500 miles on it + that motor. Clean, stock c5z's with 4500 miles go for mid-high 20's, right?

jd86L98

I'm seeing the market between 20-24k. However, the 441 is a great platform, and it was built with all the right stuff!

JeremyGSU

I agree with a lot of what Bill said but I don't feel the C5 Z's time is "long over". It still performs on par or above with most sports cars today. Yes, stock it's still behind a C6 Z but with some bolt-ons, suspension, and a front brake kit it's not that far off on performance on a road course. And I don't think anyone would argue that the LS6 is more reliable than an LS7. You got no argument from me on looks though. IMO the C6 Z looks way better but many don't feel that way.

However, if you're talking about a highly built LS6 or a stock LS7 I would go with the C6 Z. I would definitely get the valves checked right away though and continue to do so every few years.

As for resale, C5 Z's still are selling like crazy due to the pricing. They are the best bang for the buck out there and still priced well below a C6 Z. They still make great track cars, even if they are 10 years old.

jd86L98

I found this article comparing a modified C5Z to a stock C6Z. Good article
http://www.superchevy.com/features/v...-road-atlanta/

Bill Dearborn

What I meant by their time was long over is parts availability. There are parts that are GM only that are already not available for the early C5s and the 2004s have reached the end of the normal 10 year support cycle. Once that happens parts really get hard to get. One of the key parts is the ABS module which if anything but the relay goes bad nobody can fix. Same goes for the BPMV and other critical modules.

C6Z is on the countdown to end of support but with more than 5 years to go till that day it is still in the ballpark. I went through this on a car that was rare (only made 196 total with the high hp engine package) and in less than a decade engine parts were hard to come by. Then other parts. That was back in the day when almost all parts were mechanical. Now with electronic modules that consist of lots of chips that have chip manufacturers obsoleting parts every couple of years a lot of modules become obsolete before the accepted 10 year limit.

Bill