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Mine did not do this. And I greased the bushings and torqued the bracket bolts to spec. I can rotate it by hand while it's mounted, I found. But moving it laterally is a lot more difficult.
You need to adjust the brackets with washers under the bracket, so it doesn't clamp so tight. I may have a video, check below, but each bar & bushing should be "hand fitted". Torque spec doesn't mean anything as to whether it will move or not, it's how hard the bushing squeezes the bar.
My car never carried a front wheel (the Camaro) ever. 1300 is nuts IMHO. I know the car you speak of and it's well driven. And I know the prior owner is an engineer and all that jazz. I also know I won, more than once in my car against cars like that. And not only am I not 150 pounds (you've met me) but my car had both the stereo and A/C in it too.
In fact we weighed a certain black LS1 Camaro vs. mine in 2006. Between the drivers and the cars, I was racing a full 300 pounds heavier, with the softer springs, and won.
And BTW, winning then meant beating Madarash, Berry, Motonishi, etc.
As for the spring "rates". I think they are largely bogus, which someone (maybe Lane?) kind of pointed out because the method employed to figure them weren't the same. How do I come to such a conclusion? The same way I do my sway bars, with real world use and playing around to dial in. I don't much care what the claimed number is, just how it works. And I know that every, single, time I drive a car with those big springs, it's not "in" the ground to my liking. Maybe it's something else but for all the cars I drive the common factor is high rate springs when I get that happening (and not just on Corvettes).
Ok, you're with me on that Camaro. The driver ran a different ESP car (GT500) for the final heat of the Match last weekend and was nearly a second faster than he was in his own car. Very good driver making up for some setup issues, perhaps. I'm an engineer too for the record, with more coursework in chassis dynamics than most... which is good background but not all that applicable to selecting optimal spring rates for my car for autocross. Nothing quite makes up for real experience.
The only thing I'm not following you on at this point is why you don't like the aftermarket springs on the Corvettes when we agree that they're not nearly as stiff as they seem/are advertised as. I think if you drove my car, aside from being unhappy with the damping, you'd likely find it to be quite compliant. I have wheel ride rates of around 200 lb/in up front and around 150 in the rear (based on Lane's measurements). A fraction of what you'd find on the STU nationals winning 350Z from last year for example.
I know and I have a lot to do with that GT500. And despite the fact it's a GT500 with a blower and is a 2010 iron block car... it's got 600 pound front springs (and I'd run less on on an aluminum block and/or non-blower car). What's that tell you?
I know and I have a lot to do with that GT500. And despite the fact it's a GT500 with a blower and is a 2010 iron block car... it's got 600 pound front springs (and I'd run less on on an aluminum block and/or non-blower car). What's that tell you?
Good to know. That looked like a well setup car. I may bring that up to Finch. Although, it sounds like he's getting ready to move on from the catfish soon.
It looks like I'll see you at the Wilmington Champ Tour if my Bridgestones aren't corded by then. Maybe you'll have a minute for me to pick your brain further on shocks.
I had my best national event performance to date over the weekend at the Wilmington Champ Tour. On day 1 I was 1st in STU out of 12 and 40th on PAX out of 370. This was far better than I had hoped. So for day 2, I made sure that I didn't drive as well and fell back to 2nd place. Nerves got to me I guess. The car had a win in it, but I cracked under pressure. Still need work on the mental aspect. I'm beginning to understand what Ross Bentley says about being a performer in autocross rather than a competitor. I was too focused on just staying ahead of the competition on day 2 and not losing my lead. Therefore, I lost my lead. Kriz drove like a champ and took the win.
Anyway, this was my 4th national event this year and ever and first trophy.
And here's a clip from the day 1 run that was best in class day 1 by 6 tenths.
To be honest, I'm dreading the install. But I'm looking forward to getting rid of the compliance, opening up alignment settings, and significantly reducing dynamic alignment changes due to the aforementioned compliance.
If any other racers can recommend a diy camber/caster gauge, I would be interested. So far, I'm working with smart strings for toe, but that's all I've got in the garage.
Next I'd like to upgrade shocks to Konis per Mr. Strano's recommendation.
Second priority will be messing with spring and swaybar combination some more... more on that later after development of shocks and alignment with the new bushings...
I wrote a letter asking for rules clarification regarding camber kits and the elimination of eccentric bolts in ST class and they were confirmed to be class legal in the latest SCCA Fastrack.
I've updated the original post with the latest setup changes for 2016 including but not limited to some critical parts from our friends on the forum Borg Motorsports and Strano Parts. Even without tuning, they have improved the feel and performance of the car. Check the OP for specifics. This weekend (6/26/16) I plan on getting the car to the first event on a concrete national surface in it's current state. But here is a photo from the first event on a smaller asphalt lot at a local event.
I've updated the original post with the latest setup changes for 2016 including but not limited to some critical parts from our friends on the forum Borg Motorsports and Strano Parts. Even without tuning, they have improved the feel and performance of the car. Check the OP for specifics. This weekend (6/26/16) I plan on getting the car to the first event on a concrete national surface in it's current state. But here is a photo from the first event on a smaller asphalt lot at a local event.
I had a weekend long Test and Tune event on an old concrete air strip in Oscoda, MI. I had a new rear spring (Hyperco HPT) and more rear camber to test. So I started out with the rear sway bar disconnected to balance the car. Front sway bar is still the Strano 1 5/16" set at full soft. I had other bars on standby, but simply didn't need them. I kept no rear bar for the entire weekend and simply tweaked damper settings.
To me, no rear sway bar is the way to go. I've never had the car put power down so well... even with similar steady state cornering balance. I attribute a lot of this to running no rear bar. It allows more articulation at each rear corner and the rear wheels can act more independently. More normal force on the inside rear wheel in cornering which results in less dependence on the outside drive wheel for tractive force. I'm beginning to understand what the fuss is about. I'm flat footing corner exit without a second thought now where it would have been impossible, previously...
I also tuned the shocks in a nice 7 cone slalom. I went with higher rebound up front which allowed more stability and I could really push the car through the slalom without getting out of shape. A true night and day difference from the set DRM revalved Bilsteins. Having the rebound **** to turn is a welcomed addition to the car. Also, there is clearly more damping all around which can be felt straight away on the butt dyno. Body control greatly improved. Thanks, StranoParts. These dampers are working great.
With the VB&P 825 lb/in rear spring, the rear end was unloading far too much under braking and unsettling the car. This caused me to coast in decreasing radius corners. Stepping up to the HPT spring (along with balancing the car for the higher rate by disconnecting the rear ARB) greatly settled the rear down in braking. This was something I noted even in Lugod's OSG car last year at nationals. It felt there was something still to be desired in terms of longitudinal weight transfer.
I essentially can only make the car loose on entry if I try to with the new setup. Stability under braking and acceleration have been substantially improved. Longitudinal weight transfer feels like what I want at this point.
The car is very confidence inspiring now. Which is what I personally want in what is a 3-run sport on a technical course.
And my result was better than ever, as well. I ended up in Detroit Pro class trophies and I was the only one there who hasn't at least trophied at nationals previously.
Thanks again for the codrive! This car is really hooked up currently, at least at Oscoda. It's going to be interesting to watch at Wilmington. It will also make a really good starting point for my car, whenever I find enough money to start buying parts...
My thought from here is to free up the rear end a bit, and possibly add a touch of front compression for balance in the slaloms (I felt like the yaw response was costing some of our ability to carry speed through the walloms on Sunday). Maybe taking out some of the rebound like we discussed is the way to go. It's tough to say. I'd hesitate to take out any compression in the rear because I'd like it to be more free on throttle, but have less yaw in the transitional elements. It's tough to say what the right direction is, but based on just watching the car, compared to previous events, this seems to be the best the car has been.
Thanks again for the codrive! This car is really hooked up currently, at least at Oscoda. It's going to be interesting to watch at Wilmington. It will also make a really good starting point for my car, whenever I find enough money to start buying parts...
My thought from here is to free up the rear end a bit, and possibly add a touch of front compression for balance in the slaloms (I felt like the yaw response was costing some of our ability to carry speed through the walloms on Sunday). Maybe taking out some of the rebound like we discussed is the way to go. It's tough to say. I'd hesitate to take out any compression in the rear because I'd like it to be more free on throttle, but have less yaw in the transitional elements. It's tough to say what the right direction is, but based on just watching the car, compared to previous events, this seems to be the best the car has been.
Thanks, Matt. I'm pretty happy with the balance, overall at Oscoda. I personally don't wish to make it freer on throttle specifically because I can finally flat foot out of a sweeper for the first time ever and I don't perceive understeer. Just maintained grip. Finally not pedaling. I am however currently trying to find a front sway bar that is very slightly softer than the 1 5/16" (33mm) one I have on currently. An Addco 32mm may work or I may ask SteveSpeed to test his 31mm stock one from his C6 Z06. I really don't want to have to put on a rear bar to free up the rear end if I find more push on a different surface in the future. Trying to stick with no rear bar for the time being.
Thanks, Matt. I'm pretty happy with the balance, overall at Oscoda. I personally don't wish to make it freer on throttle specifically because I can finally flat foot out of a sweeper for the first time ever and I don't perceive understeer. Just maintained grip. Finally not pedaling. I am however currently trying to find a front sway bar that is very slightly softer than the 1 5/16" (33mm) one I have on currently. An Addco 32mm may work or I may ask SteveSpeed to test his 31mm stock one from his C6 Z06. I really don't want to have to put on a rear bar to free up the rear end if I find more push on a different surface in the future. Trying to stick with no rear bar for the time being.
I was more mentioning freeing up corner exit for my car and the way I like to drive. I agree your current setup is incredibly confidence inspiring, and works well as it is. It's simply a matter of personal preference for my car when I start buying stuff. My current plan is to set the suspension up exactly like you have, and with the additional power that's available in STU, the issue may fix itself.
I was more mentioning freeing up corner exit for my car and the way I like to drive. I agree your current setup is incredibly confidence inspiring, and works well as it is. It's simply a matter of personal preference for my car when I start buying stuff. My current plan is to set the suspension up exactly like you have, and with the additional power that's available in STU, the issue may fix itself.
I've never yearned for long tubes like I am now. haha
Don't make any final decisions yet. I'm pretty sure you are going to want a rear bar of some type, even if it's a small base C5 19mm. It's already by both accounts borderline tight. Of course I'm more a fan of a softer rear spring with a little rear bar for tuning purposes and riding bumps better. Oscoda is not a typical surface so unless you are tuning for Oscoda only, keep that in mind. Wilmington and Lincoln are both much more bumpy and Lincoln also has less grip in general.
I know that there is a thought process from someone that way that bigger is better, lock the front end out and deal with the back. They also tend to grind on tires. Having tested some pretty massive front bars (including T1's) you can get some spectacular results in certain maneuvers but typically on a normal course with 3 runs vs. a T&T things change a lot. You don't have the time to adjust around a tight car, and it's not normal we see anything like a 7 cone slalom either.
I'm sure it put power down really well with no rear bar, and that could have never happened without having adjustable shocks, so I'm glad you got around to that. Bear in mind that the drop from my 33.3 with the thicker wall to a stock C6Z 31 is a lot, probably too much. I still carry Addco and Hotchkis that have 31.75 (nee 32mm) bars. I can also make mine in a 1.25" size also hollow or solid so you can also have the two adjustment holes which those don't have. Keep that in mind too.
And for headers. I have a lot of nice ones. Hooker has new ones out, I am putting one of their exhausts on my car today to try it. StainlessWorks, American Racing Headers, Kooks, Pfadt to name the common ones.
Don't make any final decisions yet. I'm pretty sure you are going to want a rear bar of some type, even if it's a small base C5 19mm. It's already by both accounts borderline tight. Of course I'm more a fan of a softer rear spring with a little rear bar for tuning purposes and riding bumps better. Oscoda is not a typical surface so unless you are tuning for Oscoda only, keep that in mind. Wilmington and Lincoln are both much more bumpy and Lincoln also has less grip in general.
I know that there is a thought process from someone that way that bigger is better, lock the front end out and deal with the back. They also tend to grind on tires. Having tested some pretty massive front bars (including T1's) you can get some spectacular results in certain maneuvers but typically on a normal course with 3 runs vs. a T&T things change a lot. You don't have the time to adjust around a tight car, and it's not normal we see anything like a 7 cone slalom either.
I'm sure it put power down really well with no rear bar, and that could have never happened without having adjustable shocks, so I'm glad you got around to that. Bear in mind that the drop from my 33.3 with the thicker wall to a stock C6Z 31 is a lot, probably too much. I still carry Addco and Hotchkis that have 31.75 (nee 32mm) bars. I can also make mine in a 1.25" size also hollow or solid so you can also have the two adjustment holes which those don't have. Keep that in mind too.
And for headers. I have a lot of nice ones. Hooker has new ones out, I am putting one of their exhausts on my car today to try it. StainlessWorks, American Racing Headers, Kooks, Pfadt to name the common ones.
OOO your bar in 1.25" with adjustability sounds awesome. I wasn't aware of the thicker wall. That could work quite well.
But, see I'm okay with softer rear spring over bumps. But it just wasn't enough in braking. The rear unloaded. Even with the Konis. They slowed that motion down, but it was still unstable once it settled in a longer braking zone.. Before the HPT rear, it was always unstable and oversteering on the brakes. Even with steady state understeer. Stiffer rear spring is great. I think a Z06 rear spring rate might work at a minimum. I don't personally like the stock Z51 nor the VB&P 825 lb/in that I will have up for sale soon.
07-23-2015, 07:25 PM
I've never yearned for long tubes like I am now. haha
Bear in mind that the drop from my 33.3 with the thicker wall to a stock C6Z 31 is a lot, probably too much. I still carry Addco and Hotchkis that have 31.75 (nee 32mm) bars. I can also make mine in a 1.25" size also hollow or solid so you can also have the two adjustment holes which those don't have. Keep that in mind too.
