Does anyone have any braking questions.
05-31-2016, 01:51 PM
#1021
I'm not sure if I posted this before or not:
Wet vs. Dry Brake Fluid Boiling Points
Brake fluid bottles typically list two different boiling points, “wet” and “dry”. Yet, they do not mention which, if either is more appropriate. The short answer for racers is: those who flush their fluid often should pay much more attention to the dry boiling point. Here is why: The wet boiling point might more appropriately be called a “very wet” boiling point. Yes, brake fluid is hygroscopic, meaning that it tends to absorb moisture from the air to which it is exposed. But, the rating is based on about 3% water content in the fluid. If you live in an area where “muggy” is a common term, do not have bellows in the reservoir separating the fluid from the outside air, and you have not cracked open a bleed screw in two years, you might have a 3% water concentration. The wet boiling point is intended for OE applications where little attention is ever paid to the brake system once the car leaves the dealership.
Most racers flush or at least bleed their brakes much more frequently. The system is never totally free of water. However, the amount of water in the system is much less than 3%. Think more along the lines of 0.3%. If the dry bling point is 600 F and the wet boiling point is 400 F, then the recently flushed boiling point is likely around 580 F, which is much closer to the dry boing point.
If a reservoir does not have a set of bellows and the car is going into storage for more than a month, one should seal off the reservoir cap vent. A rubber band and plastic bag work well and are easily identified as needing to be removed before driving. This reduces water absorption. Otherwise, proper bellows do a good job on their own.
Wet vs. Dry Brake Fluid Boiling Points
Brake fluid bottles typically list two different boiling points, “wet” and “dry”. Yet, they do not mention which, if either is more appropriate. The short answer for racers is: those who flush their fluid often should pay much more attention to the dry boiling point. Here is why: The wet boiling point might more appropriately be called a “very wet” boiling point. Yes, brake fluid is hygroscopic, meaning that it tends to absorb moisture from the air to which it is exposed. But, the rating is based on about 3% water content in the fluid. If you live in an area where “muggy” is a common term, do not have bellows in the reservoir separating the fluid from the outside air, and you have not cracked open a bleed screw in two years, you might have a 3% water concentration. The wet boiling point is intended for OE applications where little attention is ever paid to the brake system once the car leaves the dealership.
Most racers flush or at least bleed their brakes much more frequently. The system is never totally free of water. However, the amount of water in the system is much less than 3%. Think more along the lines of 0.3%. If the dry bling point is 600 F and the wet boiling point is 400 F, then the recently flushed boiling point is likely around 580 F, which is much closer to the dry boing point.
If a reservoir does not have a set of bellows and the car is going into storage for more than a month, one should seal off the reservoir cap vent. A rubber band and plastic bag work well and are easily identified as needing to be removed before driving. This reduces water absorption. Otherwise, proper bellows do a good job on their own.
Is Castrol SRF more prone to weeping past the bleeder screws?....do brake fluids react differently in the sense that some are more prone to weeping past seals, etc?
Last question, have you used Speed Bleeders and are they safe and reliable for track use and can they handle the heat?
TIA
06-03-2016, 09:10 AM
#1022
How much do the designs of the rotors matter as far as the surface and veins go? I remember briefly reading an article last year about the different vein styles for different manufactures and the efficiency of them it but I lost the article.
Last edited by AdhesiveTeflon; 06-03-2016 at 09:10 AM.
06-03-2016, 09:50 AM
#1023
Supporting Vendor
What should the torque be on the bleeder screws on the AP Calipers? I noticed that when I flushed and bled the system with Castrol SRF, my front AP calipers are weeping a little after a track day.
Is Castrol SRF more prone to weeping past the bleeder screws?....do brake fluids react differently in the sense that some are more prone to weeping past seals, etc?
Last question, have you used Speed Bleeders and are they safe and reliable for track use and can they handle the heat?
TIA
Is Castrol SRF more prone to weeping past the bleeder screws?....do brake fluids react differently in the sense that some are more prone to weeping past seals, etc?
Last question, have you used Speed Bleeders and are they safe and reliable for track use and can they handle the heat?
TIA
TIA,
Did you blow the excess brake fluid out of the tips of your bleed screws when you were done bleeding them? Any fluid we've ever seen weeping out of the top of the bleed screws has always been residual fluid left in the tip of the bleed screw during a bleed. The best way to do it is to just spray a little brake clean in the tip of the bleed screw with the straw on the can, or even compressed air. When you're done wipe everything off so it doesn't mess up the caliper finish.
Assuming you're using a popular brand of racing fluid (which does include SRF), there shouldn't be any major difference in a fluid's propensity to leak or weep.
We do NOT recommend Speed Bleeders in our calipers, because they have been known to leak.
Our full install instructions with all torques can be found here. Bleed screw torque values for the bleed screw are 150 lb-in. An easy rule of thumb to remember when tightening bleed screws is that you should never apply more pressure than you could exert with one finger.
Bleed screws leak for one of a few reasons:
- Fluid is left in the tip of screw and it trickles out
- They are not tightened enough
- They are over-tightned, and the threads in the aluminum caliper are bunged-up
Properly torquing bleed screws is very important. Every bleed screw-related customer service issue I've ever dealt with in the past 15 years leads back to one of the above.
Another helpful tip...When bleeding your brakes, put a rag under your windshield wiper on the driver side. Alternatively, you can make a laminated paper checklist that says "Torque bleed screws and wheels, check oil, etc."...something along those lines. When you pull in from a track session, slip it under your windshield. You don't get back in the car and drive until you do those things. You can't miss it or forget if it's in front of your face on the windshield.
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TrackAire (06-03-2016)
06-03-2016, 10:03 AM
#1024
Supporting Vendor
Here is a video that talks about some of these features in our AP Racing J Hook discs:
The video below goes into the design process for our kits, and how we apply them to a specific vehicle. Part of that process includes choosing the proper disc for any given application.
Hopefully those give you some insight into how important each of the design features is, and what the contribute to the overall capability of a disc, and the results one will see with them on track.
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Johnny C @ OG (06-06-2016)
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JRitt@essex (06-06-2016)
06-06-2016, 02:28 PM
#1026
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Sep 2001
Location: Livermore CA
Posts: 754
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Simple question, I had several sets of the PFC 99 compound and really liked them on my 2000 FRC stock caliper set for HPDE events. I am looking for a pad that has similar properties for both the FRC and a CTS-V (with the stock Brembo calipers etc.). Any advice on a suitable replacement would be appreciated.
06-07-2016, 10:08 AM
#1027
Simple question, I had several sets of the PFC 99 compound and really liked them on my 2000 FRC stock caliper set for HPDE events. I am looking for a pad that has similar properties for both the FRC and a CTS-V (with the stock Brembo calipers etc.). Any advice on a suitable replacement would be appreciated.
06-07-2016, 12:50 PM
#1028
Melting Slicks
06-07-2016, 12:58 PM
#1029
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Sep 2001
Location: Livermore CA
Posts: 754
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I am running street tires on both the Vette and the CTS-V, the Vette is NT-05s and the CTS-V is running Conty DWs. I coach for HOD and do more demo laps than sessions with either car since I also have 3 Lemons cars that always seem to need shakedowns when I get a track day. I had some Auto Zone pads on the V and didn't expect to do any demo laps in it, but was asked to do so, pads were new at the start, did 7 laps at 6/10s and now they are gone! The smoke pouring out of the front brakes looked cool, but the affect wasn't!
06-08-2016, 09:48 AM
#1030
First of all, I would like to thank everyone who contributed so far. I have showed this thread to a few friends and they all said they wished they saw this information years ago so they did not have to spend time and money figuring it out themselves haha
Quick pad question. I am a new C5Z owner, had the car for two weeks. Previous owner ran TT3 on hoosiers so the car has Stoptech 2 piece fronts, blank rears, with DTC 70/60 pads. I'm just running HPDE's for the time being on 100-200tw street tires, and ABS was a big problem at Grattan for me. The front rotors are fairly heat checked after only 2 events. If I get the PFC 01's in front, do I also get them in the back? Or is there a better pad to balance out the car? Also debating XP12/8 setup from an upfront cost perspective, but Johnny seems convinced that the PFC would be cheaper in the long run so I am leaning toward that. Planning on sticking with stop-tech friction rings until I scrape up the money for a AP Racing sprint BBK. On my old car I've only ran Hawks so I have no experience with other companies.
I'm from Detroit so I frequent Waterford, Grattan, Gingerman, Pitt-Race. Would like to have the car capable for Mid-Ohio as well when I go.
Quick pad question. I am a new C5Z owner, had the car for two weeks. Previous owner ran TT3 on hoosiers so the car has Stoptech 2 piece fronts, blank rears, with DTC 70/60 pads. I'm just running HPDE's for the time being on 100-200tw street tires, and ABS was a big problem at Grattan for me. The front rotors are fairly heat checked after only 2 events. If I get the PFC 01's in front, do I also get them in the back? Or is there a better pad to balance out the car? Also debating XP12/8 setup from an upfront cost perspective, but Johnny seems convinced that the PFC would be cheaper in the long run so I am leaning toward that. Planning on sticking with stop-tech friction rings until I scrape up the money for a AP Racing sprint BBK. On my old car I've only ran Hawks so I have no experience with other companies.
I'm from Detroit so I frequent Waterford, Grattan, Gingerman, Pitt-Race. Would like to have the car capable for Mid-Ohio as well when I go.
06-08-2016, 10:00 AM
#1031
First of all, I would like to thank everyone who contributed so far. I have showed this thread to a few friends and they all said they wished they saw this information years ago so they did not have to spend time and money figuring it out themselves haha
Quick pad question. I am a new C5Z owner, had the car for two weeks. Previous owner ran TT3 on hoosiers so the car has Stoptech 2 piece fronts, blank rears, with DTC 70/60 pads. I'm just running HPDE's for the time being on 100-200tw street tires, and ABS was a big problem at Grattan for me. The front rotors are fairly heat checked after only 2 events. If I get the PFC 01's in front, do I also get them in the back? Or is there a better pad to balance out the car? Also debating XP12/8 setup from an upfront cost perspective, but Johnny seems convinced that the PFC would be cheaper in the long run so I am leaning toward that. Planning on sticking with stop-tech friction rings until I scrape up the money for a AP Racing sprint BBK. On my old car I've only ran Hawks so I have no experience with other companies.
I'm from Detroit so I frequent Waterford, Grattan, Gingerman, Pitt-Race. Would like to have the car capable for Mid-Ohio as well when I go.
Quick pad question. I am a new C5Z owner, had the car for two weeks. Previous owner ran TT3 on hoosiers so the car has Stoptech 2 piece fronts, blank rears, with DTC 70/60 pads. I'm just running HPDE's for the time being on 100-200tw street tires, and ABS was a big problem at Grattan for me. The front rotors are fairly heat checked after only 2 events. If I get the PFC 01's in front, do I also get them in the back? Or is there a better pad to balance out the car? Also debating XP12/8 setup from an upfront cost perspective, but Johnny seems convinced that the PFC would be cheaper in the long run so I am leaning toward that. Planning on sticking with stop-tech friction rings until I scrape up the money for a AP Racing sprint BBK. On my old car I've only ran Hawks so I have no experience with other companies.
I'm from Detroit so I frequent Waterford, Grattan, Gingerman, Pitt-Race. Would like to have the car capable for Mid-Ohio as well when I go.
Give VRR a call to get a set of brakes, and ask them how much more life they are getting out of PFC's over xp. 404-218-0588
06-08-2016, 10:04 AM
#1032
I am running street tires on both the Vette and the CTS-V, the Vette is NT-05s and the CTS-V is running Conty DWs. I coach for HOD and do more demo laps than sessions with either car since I also have 3 Lemons cars that always seem to need shakedowns when I get a track day. I had some Auto Zone pads on the V and didn't expect to do any demo laps in it, but was asked to do so, pads were new at the start, did 7 laps at 6/10s and now they are gone! The smoke pouring out of the front brakes looked cool, but the affect wasn't!
06-08-2016, 10:10 AM
#1033
in a hpde c5Z the biggest thing you need to do is floating 2 piece rotors. the oem one piece rotors crack way too often and end up having a higher overall cost. after that we have been using the pfc 01 compound square (front and rear). I just got back from Road Atlanta With NASA-SE. the Drivers for Vengeance Road Racing where in love with the 01 square combination. we found that because the initial bite is so much softer then compared to the Xp line that we can increase the rear torque and still remain stable threw corner entry. this netted us an better balanced system and decreased stopping distance.
Give VRR a call to get a set of brakes, and ask them how much more life they are getting out of PFC's over xp. 404-218-0588
Give VRR a call to get a set of brakes, and ask them how much more life they are getting out of PFC's over xp. 404-218-0588
Thank you for the information. Since the 11's are the new compound, when will the 01 stop being available? Since you recommended the 01s vs the 11s for street tires, what will be the proper pad to use once that happens? Use the 11 compound but give up a little modulation because of the higher bite? Though I may be convinced to go to hoosiers by then
06-08-2016, 10:33 AM
#1034
Melting Slicks
Libel? how so? this is all personal opinion based upon my personal experiences.
My largest Beef with that brand is how they train their field reps. that training or lack their of, has almost killed one of my friends. you're benefit from my beef with them that is you should double check the information you have been provided. this is safety and i take it serious. i work in hard numbers and not in "this will be fine" logic. the biggest benefit that a CF member are going to have a better chance at taking their car home still shiny, they are driving home, and not in a box. I've been to plenty of races where drivers didn't go home. i'll be damned if one of my racers isn't going to make it back, because i was quiet.
I am sorry if i say things like "srap" or "******" this post has over 1000 comments and i really don't have time to make every example, but i do want to get my point across. again i'm doing this on my free time under no direction from any manufacture. this should be very clear as i praise Stoptech, AP and the higher dollar Brembo. all brands i'm not associated with. i even encourage people to talk to Jeff Ritter, and KNS brakes. people who i know are experienced yet competition in my day job.
there are a lot of People in the brake world that don't have a clue on the dynamics of brakes. i'm sure you can google "brake kit" and find hundreds of companies. MOST kits are worse than the oem's brakes. So there is one benefit, you won't throw cash down the toilet. most of the kits that I've throw out had wilwood components. is this willlwoods fault? half the time i would say no. most of the time the car builder was asking too much out of the components and we needed to make a kit for the car. the other half of the time i would say yes it s their fault. a quick story- many small potato brake manufactures use wilwood components. the calipers and rotors are cheap and abundant. in the case of Flying miata's brake kit. they made a simple and cheap kit using the dynalight and a 11' rotor. Willwood found out that it used a dyanlight and built their own copy of the kit. wilwood undercut fm and sold their willwood kit 10% under FM's cost. crushing fm's brake business. the problem with this is simple. FM tries really hard but they lack the engineering chops to build a brake proper kit. their 11" kit had many flaws including the pistons in the caliper where 7% smaller than stock, and the rotor wasn't centered over the wheel bearings. so it killed front torque, killing the balance, increasing stopping distances and you would cycle out front hubs. when wilwood copied the kit they copied it 100%. they didn't fix anything! a major brake manufacture relied on the braking engineering work of a company that builds turbos for mazdas. they just took the idea and released it, all the flaws still there. so guess who bought the kit.... me. this was a long time ago before i was ever in the industry. guess what happened to that kit. it was thrown in the trashed and replaced. they say "the cheap spend money twice". well... that was me.
So i guess the moral of the story is this. if your going to go cheap and not wanting to spend money twice, get someone that knows what they are talking about. if your a racer, find someone with a good track record and wins. get their take. Willwood can make a great items for the price. I've gotten a few of their calipers to perform decently. we have had a few cars do well on them. but you need to know what your doing, if you want the results from them. also double check the small potato BBK with a fine tooth comb. Do not worry about the thief but beware the honest man that knows not of what he is doing.- unknown
and sorry again for foul language. my intent is not to offend.
My largest Beef with that brand is how they train their field reps. that training or lack their of, has almost killed one of my friends. you're benefit from my beef with them that is you should double check the information you have been provided. this is safety and i take it serious. i work in hard numbers and not in "this will be fine" logic. the biggest benefit that a CF member are going to have a better chance at taking their car home still shiny, they are driving home, and not in a box. I've been to plenty of races where drivers didn't go home. i'll be damned if one of my racers isn't going to make it back, because i was quiet.
I am sorry if i say things like "srap" or "******" this post has over 1000 comments and i really don't have time to make every example, but i do want to get my point across. again i'm doing this on my free time under no direction from any manufacture. this should be very clear as i praise Stoptech, AP and the higher dollar Brembo. all brands i'm not associated with. i even encourage people to talk to Jeff Ritter, and KNS brakes. people who i know are experienced yet competition in my day job.
there are a lot of People in the brake world that don't have a clue on the dynamics of brakes. i'm sure you can google "brake kit" and find hundreds of companies. MOST kits are worse than the oem's brakes. So there is one benefit, you won't throw cash down the toilet. most of the kits that I've throw out had wilwood components. is this willlwoods fault? half the time i would say no. most of the time the car builder was asking too much out of the components and we needed to make a kit for the car. the other half of the time i would say yes it s their fault. a quick story- many small potato brake manufactures use wilwood components. the calipers and rotors are cheap and abundant. in the case of Flying miata's brake kit. they made a simple and cheap kit using the dynalight and a 11' rotor. Willwood found out that it used a dyanlight and built their own copy of the kit. wilwood undercut fm and sold their willwood kit 10% under FM's cost. crushing fm's brake business. the problem with this is simple. FM tries really hard but they lack the engineering chops to build a brake proper kit. their 11" kit had many flaws including the pistons in the caliper where 7% smaller than stock, and the rotor wasn't centered over the wheel bearings. so it killed front torque, killing the balance, increasing stopping distances and you would cycle out front hubs. when wilwood copied the kit they copied it 100%. they didn't fix anything! a major brake manufacture relied on the braking engineering work of a company that builds turbos for mazdas. they just took the idea and released it, all the flaws still there. so guess who bought the kit.... me. this was a long time ago before i was ever in the industry. guess what happened to that kit. it was thrown in the trashed and replaced. they say "the cheap spend money twice". well... that was me.
So i guess the moral of the story is this. if your going to go cheap and not wanting to spend money twice, get someone that knows what they are talking about. if your a racer, find someone with a good track record and wins. get their take. Willwood can make a great items for the price. I've gotten a few of their calipers to perform decently. we have had a few cars do well on them. but you need to know what your doing, if you want the results from them. also double check the small potato BBK with a fine tooth comb. Do not worry about the thief but beware the honest man that knows not of what he is doing.- unknown
and sorry again for foul language. my intent is not to offend.
I had a set of Wilwoods on my 99Z28, when you call to get help or tech support I swear it's like calling your local Autozone(this is not BS).
When Todd@TCE knows 1000 times more than the company who makes said product, there's a serious issue.
I could actually hear the dumbfoundedness on the other end of the phone at Wilwood with the questions I was asking. Ever seen that RockAuto commercial about ordering struts? Yeh, just like that.
06-08-2016, 11:30 AM
#1035
Thank you for the information. Since the 11's are the new compound, when will the 01 stop being available? Since you recommended the 01s vs the 11s for street tires, what will be the proper pad to use once that happens? Use the 11 compound but give up a little modulation because of the higher bite? Though I may be convinced to go to hoosiers by then
on the tires that your using the 200 qutg you will be OK to use the 01. the grip levels of modern 200qutg tires is actually very impressive. we are seeing a difference of .2-.3G Lateral between a rs-3 and a hoosire r7. heck the bfg rival S is also the same grip level as a hoosire. if you where looking to use a tire over 200qutg or racing on some kind of loose surface i would want to see you on a lower Tq pad. the 01 square is the one i would recommend.
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JVajdak23 (06-08-2016)
06-08-2016, 01:59 PM
#1036
Former Vendor
From a business standpoint...I've been under cut by Wilwood many times. For years. On upwards of a dozen or more products. I fully understand the business issue mentioned with FM. (i know nothing of the 'flaws' etc so i won't comment on that)
The bad thing for a small shop like mine is clearly the loss of exclusivity. Want two Corvette examples? The W6A - now Aero6- front caliper kit and the FNSL4 rear caliper kit. Hands down...100% TCE product. Check Bill Dearborns old car; that's the first finished W6A kit we ever produced. Not remotely a Wilwood kit. Same for the FNSL4 rear kits I put out a few years ago. (don't get me started on WRX...Chargers...MINIs...it's truly a long list! lol)
So what went wrong? Two things; first the price point. Using the W6A kit for an example that one sold for perhaps $1250. Yet for only $400 more you could buy an entire kit! The other issue is volume...other dealers soon call wanting to know what the p/n is of this kit and why they can't sell it only TCE?? Wilwood has to explain that it's a custom and not a factory kit. But hey; the light goes on and soon enough....every dealer is selling it! Gee wonder who came up with that kit..?
Totally sucks. I get that. But the good news is that that price drop is substantial. And while I can't speak for FM I can assure you they can purchase that kit as a dealer now for less than they could buy the parts for and produce it. Not to mention carrying costs; inventory, packaging, promotion etc etc. I can say from experience many times that today I can sell you these kits for less, have less headache, lower overhead and still make almost as much profit. These projects are always a shot in the jaw but if played right it ends up being more beneficial than doing it solo.
1. You can't compete with your own supplier.
2. The sum of the parts is greater than the whole.
I'll agree with Jonny (and have for some time) that their staff could be more informed for the technical stuff. But they're no different than he is. Than I am. Nobody picks up 20yrs experience without putting in the time. Like the Miata kit Johnny probably had no idea really what was wrong with it or why and so on at the time. Years later and more experience he can pick it apart. I built my first kits based on a highly reputable race shop who supplied 'kits' to a name school back in the 80s. Hell, I sold probably 120 of them in later years! But today I'd not do it the same or use the same parts. Its both evolutionary and a learning curve. Doesn't matter how big or small your business is you're always learning how to improve things. Sometimes that comes at the expense of some cheaper products.
I've mentioned sometime ago that not all Wilwood product is right by my own standards either. But the biggest problem is not the design or production..it's the application. If you're at Summit looking at a $759 complete BBK do you really believe it's as good a product as a $3000 (AP, Alcon, Brembo, ST, Wilwood) kit? In the correct usage it may be fine. For the hard core guy...probably not. Vendors and suppliers owe the customer some level of understanding of application I totally agree. But the customer owes it to his purchase to seek out that info also.
For the past five years my initial conversations remain the same.
1. What size wheel do you run.
2. What do you use the car for/are your expectations from your purchase?
3. What's your budget?
Pick two. That's just how brake kit purchases tend to go.
---- anyhow carry on! lol
The bad thing for a small shop like mine is clearly the loss of exclusivity. Want two Corvette examples? The W6A - now Aero6- front caliper kit and the FNSL4 rear caliper kit. Hands down...100% TCE product. Check Bill Dearborns old car; that's the first finished W6A kit we ever produced. Not remotely a Wilwood kit. Same for the FNSL4 rear kits I put out a few years ago. (don't get me started on WRX...Chargers...MINIs...it's truly a long list! lol)
So what went wrong? Two things; first the price point. Using the W6A kit for an example that one sold for perhaps $1250. Yet for only $400 more you could buy an entire kit! The other issue is volume...other dealers soon call wanting to know what the p/n is of this kit and why they can't sell it only TCE?? Wilwood has to explain that it's a custom and not a factory kit. But hey; the light goes on and soon enough....every dealer is selling it! Gee wonder who came up with that kit..?
Totally sucks. I get that. But the good news is that that price drop is substantial. And while I can't speak for FM I can assure you they can purchase that kit as a dealer now for less than they could buy the parts for and produce it. Not to mention carrying costs; inventory, packaging, promotion etc etc. I can say from experience many times that today I can sell you these kits for less, have less headache, lower overhead and still make almost as much profit. These projects are always a shot in the jaw but if played right it ends up being more beneficial than doing it solo.
1. You can't compete with your own supplier.
2. The sum of the parts is greater than the whole.
I'll agree with Jonny (and have for some time) that their staff could be more informed for the technical stuff. But they're no different than he is. Than I am. Nobody picks up 20yrs experience without putting in the time. Like the Miata kit Johnny probably had no idea really what was wrong with it or why and so on at the time. Years later and more experience he can pick it apart. I built my first kits based on a highly reputable race shop who supplied 'kits' to a name school back in the 80s. Hell, I sold probably 120 of them in later years! But today I'd not do it the same or use the same parts. Its both evolutionary and a learning curve. Doesn't matter how big or small your business is you're always learning how to improve things. Sometimes that comes at the expense of some cheaper products.
I've mentioned sometime ago that not all Wilwood product is right by my own standards either. But the biggest problem is not the design or production..it's the application. If you're at Summit looking at a $759 complete BBK do you really believe it's as good a product as a $3000 (AP, Alcon, Brembo, ST, Wilwood) kit? In the correct usage it may be fine. For the hard core guy...probably not. Vendors and suppliers owe the customer some level of understanding of application I totally agree. But the customer owes it to his purchase to seek out that info also.
For the past five years my initial conversations remain the same.
1. What size wheel do you run.
2. What do you use the car for/are your expectations from your purchase?
3. What's your budget?
Pick two. That's just how brake kit purchases tend to go.
---- anyhow carry on! lol
Last edited by Todd TCE; 06-08-2016 at 02:25 PM.
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Johnny C @ OG (06-08-2016)
06-08-2016, 05:02 PM
#1037
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Dec 2005
Location: Port Arthur, Texas 77642
Posts: 8,475
Received 331 Likes
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in a hpde c5Z the biggest thing you need to do is floating 2 piece rotors. the oem one piece rotors crack way too often and end up having a higher overall cost. after that we have been using the pfc 01 compound square (front and rear). I just got back from Road Atlanta With NASA-SE. the Drivers for Vengeance Road Racing where in love with the 01 square combination. we found that because the initial bite is so much softer then compared to the Xp line that we can increase the rear torque and still remain stable threw corner entry. this netted us an better balanced system and decreased stopping distance.
Stock diameter rotors?
Which 2 piece rotors do you recommend?
I ran the PF-01's square on my previous 02 C5Z and they worked amazing. Stock diameter rotors as well.
06-09-2016, 08:39 AM
#1038
Supporting Vendor
First of all, I would like to thank everyone who contributed so far. I have showed this thread to a few friends and they all said they wished they saw this information years ago so they did not have to spend time and money figuring it out themselves haha
Quick pad question. I am a new C5Z owner, had the car for two weeks. Previous owner ran TT3 on hoosiers so the car has Stoptech 2 piece fronts, blank rears, with DTC 70/60 pads. I'm just running HPDE's for the time being on 100-200tw street tires, and ABS was a big problem at Grattan for me. The front rotors are fairly heat checked after only 2 events. If I get the PFC 01's in front, do I also get them in the back? Or is there a better pad to balance out the car? Also debating XP12/8 setup from an upfront cost perspective, but Johnny seems convinced that the PFC would be cheaper in the long run so I am leaning toward that. Planning on sticking with stop-tech friction rings until I scrape up the money for a AP Racing sprint BBK. On my old car I've only ran Hawks so I have no experience with other companies.
I'm from Detroit so I frequent Waterford, Grattan, Gingerman, Pitt-Race. Would like to have the car capable for Mid-Ohio as well when I go.
Quick pad question. I am a new C5Z owner, had the car for two weeks. Previous owner ran TT3 on hoosiers so the car has Stoptech 2 piece fronts, blank rears, with DTC 70/60 pads. I'm just running HPDE's for the time being on 100-200tw street tires, and ABS was a big problem at Grattan for me. The front rotors are fairly heat checked after only 2 events. If I get the PFC 01's in front, do I also get them in the back? Or is there a better pad to balance out the car? Also debating XP12/8 setup from an upfront cost perspective, but Johnny seems convinced that the PFC would be cheaper in the long run so I am leaning toward that. Planning on sticking with stop-tech friction rings until I scrape up the money for a AP Racing sprint BBK. On my old car I've only ran Hawks so I have no experience with other companies.
I'm from Detroit so I frequent Waterford, Grattan, Gingerman, Pitt-Race. Would like to have the car capable for Mid-Ohio as well when I go.
If I'm reading this correctly, you're already running StopTech 2-piece discs in the OEM size on the front of your car....Is that correct? Are you running brake ducts? If not, that would be the next thing I would do. Ducts are going to bring the temperatures down and help you get the most out of the discs you have now. Even if you go with one of our complete front big brake kits in the future, the ducts will be usable and beneficial. They also aren't terribly expensive. I used LG spindle ducts and the DRM duct kit on my personal car and they worked well. Quantum is another popular spindle duct product, but I have no experience with them personally.
Heat checks don't mean that the discs are ready to give up the ghost just yet. Many times discs will check and subsequently last a very long time. When discs are heated and cooled over and over on the track, they expand and contract. The metal checks, then those checks grow and expand over time. It's inevitable, and totally normal.
All else held equal, running a higher mu pad up front is going to shift your brake bias forward a bit, putting more heat into the fronts. I personally preferred a square setup with the same pad compound front and rear.
My recommendation would be to add the ducts and the same pad compound front and rear (regardless of what that may be) and see how things go. The ducts are a relatively small investment that won't be wasted regardless of your next step. If you are running StopTech two-piece discs now, I wouldn't invest in a different brand of front two-piece discs in the OEM size. I personally don't know of any two-piece discs for the C5 that solve all of the brake problems on that chassis. Every 2-piece disc for the C5 I've seen are a relatively low vane count (48 or less), they don't flow a ton of air, and they don't last terribly long. Your going to spend 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a complete brake kit to get a different set of 2-piece discs. You'd be better off just saving for the best complete front BBK you can afford.
Under intense heat, the OEM front C5 calipers tend to need a lot of maintenance. One of our customers (chief instructor at Carolina Motorsports Park) was blowing through a set of OEM-style discs every single event, and rebuilding his calipers after nearly every event, and replacing them every few events because they kept spreading/clam-shelling. You can see his feedback here on our blog. Aftermarket calipers have a whole bunch of benefits...lower weight, far easier to replace pads, cheaper and thicker pads, stainless pistons, AKB springs...the list goes on. At that point you're getting into a whole lot less fiddling around with the brakes, and a whole lot more driving...which is definitely more fun!
I'd give the ducts a try and run that setup until you either kill your new pads or the front discs. If you're getting acceptable wear rates and performance, then consider a fresh set of iron rings and new pads. If not, save up some scratch, make the jump to one of our complete BBK's, and don't look back. Most customers tell us they wish they had done it sooner, but I still think trying ducts first are worth the effort since they can be integrated into future upgrades, and they're the only real remaining step between what you have now and a full BBK.
Last edited by JRitt@essex; 06-09-2016 at 08:44 AM.
06-09-2016, 09:25 AM
#1039
A few points...
If I'm reading this correctly, you're already running StopTech 2-piece discs in the OEM size on the front of your car....Is that correct? Are you running brake ducts? If not, that would be the next thing I would do. Ducts are going to bring the temperatures down and help you get the most out of the discs you have now. Even if you go with one of our complete front big brake kits in the future, the ducts will be usable and beneficial. They also aren't terribly expensive. I used LG spindle ducts and the DRM duct kit on my personal car and they worked well. Quantum is another popular spindle duct product, but I have no experience with them personally.
Heat checks don't mean that the discs are ready to give up the ghost just yet. Many times discs will check and subsequently last a very long time. When discs are heated and cooled over and over on the track, they expand and contract. The metal checks, then those checks grow and expand over time. It's inevitable, and totally normal.
All else held equal, running a higher mu pad up front is going to shift your brake bias forward a bit, putting more heat into the fronts. I personally preferred a square setup with the same pad compound front and rear.
My recommendation would be to add the ducts and the same pad compound front and rear (regardless of what that may be) and see how things go. The ducts are a relatively small investment that won't be wasted regardless of your next step. If you are running StopTech two-piece discs now, I wouldn't invest in a different brand of front two-piece discs in the OEM size. I personally don't know of any two-piece discs for the C5 that solve all of the brake problems on that chassis. Every 2-piece disc for the C5 I've seen are a relatively low vane count (48 or less), they don't flow a ton of air, and they don't last terribly long. Your going to spend 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a complete brake kit to get a different set of 2-piece discs. You'd be better off just saving for the best complete front BBK you can afford.
Under intense heat, the OEM front C5 calipers tend to need a lot of maintenance. One of our customers (chief instructor at Carolina Motorsports Park) was blowing through a set of OEM-style discs every single event, and rebuilding his calipers after nearly every event, and replacing them every few events because they kept spreading/clam-shelling. You can see his feedback here on our blog. Aftermarket calipers have a whole bunch of benefits...lower weight, far easier to replace pads, cheaper and thicker pads, stainless pistons, AKB springs...the list goes on. At that point you're getting into a whole lot less fiddling around with the brakes, and a whole lot more driving...which is definitely more fun!
I'd give the ducts a try and run that setup until you either kill your new pads or the front discs. If you're getting acceptable wear rates and performance, then consider a fresh set of iron rings and new pads. If not, save up some scratch, make the jump to one of our complete BBK's, and don't look back. Most customers tell us they wish they had done it sooner, but I still think trying ducts first are worth the effort since they can be integrated into future upgrades, and they're the only real remaining step between what you have now and a full BBK.
If I'm reading this correctly, you're already running StopTech 2-piece discs in the OEM size on the front of your car....Is that correct? Are you running brake ducts? If not, that would be the next thing I would do. Ducts are going to bring the temperatures down and help you get the most out of the discs you have now. Even if you go with one of our complete front big brake kits in the future, the ducts will be usable and beneficial. They also aren't terribly expensive. I used LG spindle ducts and the DRM duct kit on my personal car and they worked well. Quantum is another popular spindle duct product, but I have no experience with them personally.
Heat checks don't mean that the discs are ready to give up the ghost just yet. Many times discs will check and subsequently last a very long time. When discs are heated and cooled over and over on the track, they expand and contract. The metal checks, then those checks grow and expand over time. It's inevitable, and totally normal.
All else held equal, running a higher mu pad up front is going to shift your brake bias forward a bit, putting more heat into the fronts. I personally preferred a square setup with the same pad compound front and rear.
My recommendation would be to add the ducts and the same pad compound front and rear (regardless of what that may be) and see how things go. The ducts are a relatively small investment that won't be wasted regardless of your next step. If you are running StopTech two-piece discs now, I wouldn't invest in a different brand of front two-piece discs in the OEM size. I personally don't know of any two-piece discs for the C5 that solve all of the brake problems on that chassis. Every 2-piece disc for the C5 I've seen are a relatively low vane count (48 or less), they don't flow a ton of air, and they don't last terribly long. Your going to spend 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a complete brake kit to get a different set of 2-piece discs. You'd be better off just saving for the best complete front BBK you can afford.
Under intense heat, the OEM front C5 calipers tend to need a lot of maintenance. One of our customers (chief instructor at Carolina Motorsports Park) was blowing through a set of OEM-style discs every single event, and rebuilding his calipers after nearly every event, and replacing them every few events because they kept spreading/clam-shelling. You can see his feedback here on our blog. Aftermarket calipers have a whole bunch of benefits...lower weight, far easier to replace pads, cheaper and thicker pads, stainless pistons, AKB springs...the list goes on. At that point you're getting into a whole lot less fiddling around with the brakes, and a whole lot more driving...which is definitely more fun!
I'd give the ducts a try and run that setup until you either kill your new pads or the front discs. If you're getting acceptable wear rates and performance, then consider a fresh set of iron rings and new pads. If not, save up some scratch, make the jump to one of our complete BBK's, and don't look back. Most customers tell us they wish they had done it sooner, but I still think trying ducts first are worth the effort since they can be integrated into future upgrades, and they're the only real remaining step between what you have now and a full BBK.
My main problem right now is that the DTC 70/60 that came with the car are overpowering street tires. I plan on getting a new set of friction rings in front, KNS 4k rotors in the rear, and PFC 01 square soon and keeping the current equipment on the car as spares, the car is driven to events so spares are important to me. I have only 1 track day on this car personally so I have yet to find the limitations for my self! Previous owner put 60 track days on the car over 9 years....no idea how he got away without ducts that long while running hoosiers at mid-ohio.
06-09-2016, 09:37 AM
#1040
Supporting Vendor
Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I do have the stoptech 2-piece floating rotors in stock size and I did plan on sticking with that since friction rings are only $205. The car did not come with brake ducts, and I have been researching into those. Probably going with the Quantum kit just so I do not have to pull the hub off.
My main problem right now is that the DTC 70/60 that came with the car are overpowering street tires. I plan on getting a new set of friction rings in front, KNS 4k rotors in the rear, and PFC 01 square soon and keeping the current equipment on the car as spares, the car is driven to events so spares are important to me. I have only 1 track day on this car personally so I have yet to find the limitations for my self! Previous owner put 60 track days on the car over 9 years....no idea how he got away without ducts that long while running hoosiers at mid-ohio.
My main problem right now is that the DTC 70/60 that came with the car are overpowering street tires. I plan on getting a new set of friction rings in front, KNS 4k rotors in the rear, and PFC 01 square soon and keeping the current equipment on the car as spares, the car is driven to events so spares are important to me. I have only 1 track day on this car personally so I have yet to find the limitations for my self! Previous owner put 60 track days on the car over 9 years....no idea how he got away without ducts that long while running hoosiers at mid-ohio.
The best we can do is use our experience from dealing with thousands of customers and make reco's based on that.At any rate, let us know if you need help with anything down the road as you get more comfortable with the car. We'll be here. Have fun out there and be safe.
Last edited by JRitt@essex; 06-09-2016 at 09:38 AM.