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no it's not. david quit it dude. fade can be anything from overheating, fluid to a Mu failure, to a rotor deformation. it can be a huge list of things. hell i've seen calipers crap out and create a fade in the predal. most of the time with the right pads its a sign of failure in the system.
True, can be many things....but the pad not being up to the task usually isn't it when you have a low pedal or push the pedal and not much happens,which is my definition of "fade." Hence the "almost always."
True, can be many things....but the pad not being up to the task usually isn't it when you have a low pedal or push the pedal and not much happens,which is my definition of "fade." Hence the "almost always."
I have definitely experienced straight pad fade, on the right track. It happens. Never used carbotechs, maybe they melt onto the rotor. But I wouldn't expect a good race pad to do that.
we have recorded the PFC's on very fast c5z's have lasted 3 times as long vs the carbotechs. so when your comparing price make sure you multiply the carbos price x3 that will equal your running cost. that and stopping distances are actually shorter because we can use the rear tires.
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On those fasr c5's what pfc compounds front and rear are being used? The maker of my 4caliper bbk had me on 01 and 97 for racing and that wad similar to carbotechs rec of a split compound front rear. 01 is now 11 compound right?
On those fasr c5's what pfc compounds front and rear are being used? The maker of my 4caliper bbk had me on 01 and 97 for racing and that wad similar to carbotechs rec of a split compound front rear. 01 is now 11 compound right?
If PFC pads lasted 3 times longer than the Carbotechs, how long did the rotors last with PFC's v.s. Carbotechs?
If PFC pads lasted 3 times longer than the Carbotechs, how long did the rotors last with PFC's v.s. Carbotechs?
we where doing testing on vengeance's C5z st2 car with a BBK. so that won't give us an accurate representation of oem rotors. we have another car that they are comparing that has the PFC 01 and PFC rotors. we put the pads and rotors on earlier this year (February) and nothing has failed yet (no cracks). i'll post a report when we reach the end of life for the pads or the rotors.
for the record the carbos shouldn't be better or worse on rotors due to compound. the reason they don't last as long is because they are riveted, it's in the way they are engineered. basically to rivit a pad one would take friction material in a large sheet from a supplier, cut it on a CNC mill to a pad shape, then rivet that friction material to a backing plate. the rivets don't sit flush, they stick out 5mm or so into the pad. so on a c5 you have a 16mm thick pad (including the backing plate). a backing plate is around 4mm thick. with a rivet that sticks into the friction material 5mm - 4mm backing plate -16mm total = you now only have 7mm of material to use.
manufactures like hawk, PFC, padgid ect.. use a press to make pads. instead of ordering a sheet of friction matterial they get large bags of the ingredients. this comes as a fine dust. they take that dust mixed perfectly, and pour it into a mold. they compress that dust on top of the packing plate at very high pressure. this leaves a very stromg bond between the backing plate and the friction material. molding a pad is much much more expensive to do. a company like pfc it costs $50,000 to make a mold. the presses are even more cash. but there is no performance disadvantage. you can run the pad down to the backing plate, if you wanted to. so that 16mm pad with 4mm backing plate has 12mm of friction material. 12mm over 7 is a 71% increase in thickness.
Only the 731 and 732 are rivited which is the c5 c6 base and z51 front and rear part numbers.Because carbotech uses a higher strength steel for the backing plates. As far as the rest of the corvette line up they are all molded. Carbotech also has several other molds for other vehicles and some BBK'S. They may not have a mold for the BBK that vengeance was testing in wich case they would be rivited.
On those fasr c5's what pfc compounds front and rear are being used? The maker of my 4caliper bbk had me on 01 and 97 for racing and that wad similar to carbotechs rec of a split compound front rear. 01 is now 11 compound right?
we are running them square, on the cars between hoosires - 100qutg tires, we are running the new 11 compound.
on tires with a bit less grip (200-100qutg tires) we are running the older 01 compound.
the 11 is the replacement for the 01. it's better in every aspect , more tQ, better cold bite(start working at lower temps), better modulation.
Only the 731 and 732 are rivited which is the c5 c6 base and z51 front and rear part numbers.Because carbotech uses a higher strength steel for the backing plates. As far as the rest of the corvette line up they are all molded. Carbotech also has several other molds for other vehicles and some BBK'S. They may not have a mold for the BBK that vengeance was testing in wich case they would be rivited.
all of the backing plates come from the same Canadian company. it's the last place in the western hemisphere still standing. if carbo is getting something different, it's coming from china.
The common format of bonding is from NUCAP who make a variety of bonding plates designs. What's nice about them is you can run them nearly dry without worrying about the friction material chunking off.
I think this stuff became all the rage about 12yrs ago if my memory is close.
all of the backing plates come from the same Canadian company. it's the last place in the western hemisphere still standing. if carbo is getting something different, it's coming from china.
Yes, all backing plates come from nu cap except the carbotech CT731 and 732. These backing plates are laser cut in NC for carbotech out of 50 min yield steel from US Steel. I can assure you or anyone else carbotech does not buy or use anything from china. The plates from nu cap 731 and 732 where bending in the caliper under race conditions. So, Carbotech starting having them laser cut like they do with other backing plates that are unavailable. And yes all pads that are molded from Carbotech use NRS http://www.nrsbrakes.com
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Last edited by Adam@Amp'dAutosport.com; 05-05-2016 at 06:20 PM.
we are running them square, on the cars between hoosires - 100qutg tires, we are running the new 11 compound.
on tires with a bit less grip (200-100qutg tires) we are running the older 01 compound.
the 11 is the replacement for the 01. it's better in every aspect , more tQ, better cold bite(start working at lower temps), better modulation.
I'm running A7 Hoosier that is TRW at 40 on C5 vette on Stoptech T1 brake kit 4 calipers at 3525lbs race weight finishing at 3450
I got Carbotech xp20 front only lasting 3 race weekends and Xp 12's on the rear that have been on so long I can't remember when last changed. Rotor wear is zero. They get changed annually with increasing heat cracks that never make it to the outer circumference so just to be safe.
Would you still run 11's square and expect more front pad life than XP20's with near zero rotor wear?
I apologize if this is inappropriate. I was was at a car show yesterday and they had a brake vendor named PowerBrake, the GM gave me the whole pitch and talked about the virtues of his brakes I have never heard of.
The question is, has anyone ever heard of these people?
The second question is about rigidity of calipers. He mentioned that his brakes were machined aluminum and not forged like APracing and therefore more rigid. Could someone lend some unbiased information to this claim?
I apologize if this is inappropriate. I was was at a car show yesterday and they had a brake vendor named PowerBrake, the GM gave me the whole pitch and talked about the virtues of his brakes I have never heard of.
The question is, has anyone ever heard of these people?
The second question is about rigidity of calipers. He mentioned that his brakes were machined aluminum and not forged like APracing and therefore more rigid. Could someone lend some unbiased information to this claim?
I think you were getting the "pitchman's" version of reality. Was he also selling Ginsu knives? Lifetime pots? Spray can sealer that will glue your boat back together?
CO.AZ domain extension is the country code for the nation of Azerbaijan, South Africa
He'd be incorrect on the materials argument also. Basic billet material is seldom used on higher end calipers today favoring forged items or sometimes "forged billets" for their grain structure and compressed nature. Part for part all other things being equal the forged parts will weigh more making it both heavier and more robust. Billet was the rage after basic castings 20yrs ago due to easy of machining when CNC equipment became more common place and they can be then made to look very cool.
Yes..Wilwood still runs some billet parts. Much of that coming from extrusions made to a specific shape. I confess to not studying the parts fully but grain structure can play a part in the rigidity of the part also. Bending or flexing across the grain is much harder than in line with it for example. Most all those items however are used on lighter weight or less stress applications where lower pressures are the norm and heavier more robust parts both un necessary and a negative for weight reasons.
Others can add more to the exact nature of materials than I so I'll defer beyond this.
I'm not clear what Twiggs is asking or implying since forgings have to be machined v.s. what? Castings (that also have to be machines).
Im sorry if it was confusing. I was genuinely confused myself when this company I've never heard of was saying their product whas inherently more rigid. with the implication of being superior to AP, and wanted to know if anyone here had even heard of them.
Im sorry if it was confusing. I was genuinely confused myself when this company I've never heard of was saying their product whas inherently more rigid. with the implication of being superior to AP, and wanted to know if anyone here had even heard of them.
No need to be sorry Twiggs, I think the sales person was also confused and may have been trying to sell a bill of goods. I reread mybquestion, sorry if I sounded a bit of a standoff.
...CO.AZ domain extension is the country code for the nation of Azerbaijan, South Africa...
While the Internet code AZ does stand for Azerbijan (a country bordered by the Caspian Sea, Russia, Georgia, and Iran), the correct Internet code for the company in question is ZA or South Africa. The former isn't a hotbed of automotive competition while the later seems to be heavily involved in extreme rallying (e.g., Dakar Rally) and other racing venues.
It sounds like the OP met up with an over zealous salesman as scanning the company's website and FB page proved interesting to me. First time I've ever seen liquid-cooled disc brakes!
Still, if I'm going racing, I'll stick with AP Racing brakes for right now. YMMV.
Johnny - what's the best way to threshold brake on a C5 with factory ABS? Lightly step to set, then stand on pedal 1 second later? I am constantly triggering ABS at the track.
we want to avoid ABS as much as we can. if your ABS is kicking on all the time then we have a bias issue. this could be from the tires or the brakes. tell us more about what you have going on. things like tire compound, tire size, operating PSI, and what pads you have.
05-04-2016, 09:12 PM
