FASTFATBOY

Not sure if you guys heard or not, NASA event...Solo 2 driver.

Be careful out there, RIP

http://www.motorsport-safety.org/med...t-road-atlanta

stevensa

Very sad to hear. This is already turning into the usual "what safety equipment should be required, more instruction, lap time limit, etc" debate, but at the end of the day we all know the risks. Life is all about risk management, HPDE/racing is no exception. Every year we lose participants, racers, instructors. Spectators are also killed at amateur and pro events, however spectators are also killed watching football, hockey, and even the young bat boy who died recently at a baseball game. Young children are killed on trampolines, playing tag football and diving into swimming pools.

Is there room for improvement in the HPDE system, I'm sure there is, there always is with anything. I just hope that everyone can keep in mind that no system is perfect, and life is all about find an acceptable and appropriate risk level for the nature of the activity.

If nothing else, hopefully this will help some people reconsider their safety equipment prior to purchasing that next speed upgrade.

FASTFATBOY

In my opinion, a DE1-2 driver should never be allowed to solo at Road Atlanta, place is just too dangerous.

I'm not saying this had anything to do with his passing, just saying as a general rule.

bags142

I agree on all counts. Very sad this man is gone


I have only been doing this for a few years and it seems every time a major incident occurs, folks come out of the wood work on both sides.

From what I have seen, HPDE has some "dirty secrets" as someone else said. One of them being the amount of track time you get compared to racing. The other is the minimum requirements on safety gear and inspections. And the final one being many folks are going 10/10'ths or even 11/10'ths in HPDE (this is very debatable, but a lot truth in it).

Now, I have no issues at all with NASA or any other HPDE program I have seen. I did a couple of trackdays and quickly realized I could smash my car or die. I made choices to not run anything other than the required helmet.

That was MY choice. I am not better or worse than anyone else.

I hope some more info comes out on the accident so we can all learn from it. And maybe improve as you said.

I am curious, what would not allowing hpde 1/2 to solo at Road Atl accomplish? Not saying your are "stupid". I am asking for some info to have an actual discussion about.

I don't agree with your statement, but maybe I don't have enough information to agree with you.

I think A LOT of healthy adult discussion could improve our hobby and not make it scary or overbearing to 1st timers or old hats.

stevensa

That place definitely eats cars. That is one of the tracks that I would love to run, but probably never will due to the risk. I know a lot of very experienced people who have had bad wrecks there, just not a very forgiving track.

ZedO6

In the world of racetracks, some are forgiving: a vast desert of run-off room to scrub off speed, or perhaps groomed gravel in the trackout run-off areas to slow a car down before it impacts K rail. Others constructed in old growth forest with slippery green grass in between cement walls and 36" trees less than 10 feet from the racing surface... or the superspeedway road courses that give a car with just seatbelts, enough banked, almost straight roadway to nearly reach top speed every lap.

It takes little imagination to understand the differing consequences of driver or mechanical error under each of these scenarios. Part of the experience we get after 5, 15 or 20 years of doing this sort of thing is is knowing what level of risk each of us is comfortable with as it pertains to safety gear, race tracks, and how far you let it hang out....

Regardless of making changes or not, the risks will always be there. I feel bad for this gentlemen and his family. Godspeed.

odxr

A street car does not have a complete roll cage-chassis system like a real race car.So if you crash your street car at 130mph its going to hurt.Some modern cars have as much horsepower as some race cars.But the driver isnt always as good as the car-he just has a fat wallet.

rocsvette

I've been right seat for 17 years with many groups. early on I learned that I had to be more in control of my destiny and started avoiding groups that did not run what I felt was a safe operation or at a track that was not in good condition.

If I don't think classroom is present or sufficient I won't climb into a car, if the student is not listening then I decline to continue with them, if I don't think the track is safe (like at Disney earlier this year or lacking enough corner workers) then I leave. As previously pointed out we are faced with dangers all over with many activities and there is inherent risk but we need to be personally responsible for our own safety.

FASTFATBOY

A DE 1 student should never, under any circumstances, on any track be allowed to Solo. A DE 2 student should be ready to bump to DE 3 before that student should even be considered to solo at Road Atlanta. RA is a very dangerous place, cars are brought home in grocery baskets on a regular basis from there. There have been two DE deaths there in the last 5 or so years there IIRC.

DE stands for Driver Education. Very very few DE 1-2 students are calm, have their eyes up, can ID flag stations and the most important thing, react CORRECTLY under distress when a boo boo comes along. All of the things I just mentioned hinge on dealing with Fight or Flight in the brain, dealing with it comes from seat time and being able to recognize it and deal with it instead of letting it compound itself as laps go on, this is what gets people in trouble.


Fight or Flight in the brain is like quicksand, this is what you are teaching a DE 1-2 student to deal with IMO.

DE 1= run the line, be courteous, see flag stations, learn to pass and be passed, brake zones, where the apex turn in and track out are, act right in the paddock, be at the instructors pit before time to go on track, lay the groundwork for THE INSTRUCTOR IS BOSS in your right seat.

DE2= Build on DE 1, increase speed to bump the brains Fight or Flight limits(not the cars limit), teach them to relax when they hit the brains processor's limit, let them make mistakes then slow them down to recognize why and how it happened(the instructor should see this coming, elbows high, grip tight, missing apexes etc) then slow them down a click to get them back into line. Get the brain back to processing information and your eyes up you WILL go faster....every time.

DE 3= Most likely solo territory for most, this area should be reserved for the bump to solo.


I think drivers should be required to carry a Dossier physically and online that instructors and groups can access to learn about the student and where the student's progress is.

The above is just my opinion, the issue really is qualified instructors or the lack of instructors period, students running with different groups and records being non existent.

bags142

Sorry to chop your reply, but easier on my phone.

Your post was well written. Thank you for taking the time to spell it out for me.

I agree Road Atl eats a car basically at every event. I have done 3 hpde weekends there and spectated there 4 more times and always see the wrecker deposit a pile of parts in the paddock.

I don't agree with everything you said, but the majority of it I do. So, instead of me trying to debate it, I wanna talk about it.

How do we do a better job of getting a better product from events? For the green group through the red group * edit, by better, I mean safer

Ludeaem

^^ i'm not sure how it would be done because of the HPDE's I do you tell them what run group you should be in and most tech inspections are very loose. The responsibility is put on the car owner. As someone stated above, its all about risk and being adults we need to watch out for each other in this sport. Be smart out there

Quickshift_C5

More instructors (and quality instructors) is a good start. That's the biggest issue I've had with track days at both Sebring, Autobahn, and Road America.

The other thing is the participants and their general attitudes. A lot of my friends just want to get in the car solo and tear up the track. They hate having an instructor and think they are holding them back from learning faster or that they have already "mastered" the track and their car. This seems like a very common attitude.

My friends harassed me for 2 years because I wouldn't drive without an instructor, stayed in the first novice group, and drove the car at 7/10's at most, always, to try and become smooth, work on braking zones, see corner workers, etc.

I think people should be forced to be in Novice groups with instructors and a required driver portfolio is a good idea.

mdaniel

This is a sobering topic. While we all recognize the inherent risk in high-performance driving, at the end of the day we expect to come home and hug our kids and significant others.
I have a quality helmet, HANS, race seat, and harness and perform regular brake fluid (DOT 4) and oil changes along with manually checking the brakes pads and rotors before each track day.
I try to mitigate risk by maintaining the equipment and not driving beyond beyond my abilities. My goals are modest - to enjoy running HPDE for many years - and that means not hurting the car or me.
Sometimes this means slower cars run faster lap times, and I'm okay with that. I'm confident that by majoring in the majors (driving smooth) speed will come in time.
From my limited experience, what has gotten me in to more trouble than anything else was using the brake instead of the accelerator.
It's fine to consider black swan scenarios such as what lead to the recent fatal accident at Road Atlanta, but the reality is
regardless of how well we prep our cars or how extensive our track experience is, or how expansive our safety equipment there is always the potential for a freak accident. That's life.

waddisme

Thoughts and prayers to family. As much as I love running RA, it does not leave much room for error anywhere on the track. Most of the bad crashes I have seen in my 50+ track days have happened there. Not sure there is anything more exhilarating than nailing Turn 1 though. VIR, on the other hand, has only a few places where you can't just drive off and deal with mistake in the grass. To be in DE2, the guy should have had some track time so you think he would have been aware.

Not sure what Motorsports Reg charges to use their site for track day sign ups, but they do have most of my driving history avialable on-line and with notes from some of my instructors. Closest thing I know of to a centralized place for driver dossiers. I think it is a good idea, especially when assigning drivers to solo and up classes.

Again, thoughts and prayers to the family - but he went doing something he obviously loved.

63Corvette

At "The Mitty" in 2011, the Chief Steward stopped practice, called a driver's meeting to tell us that: "I'm gonna send you ALL home and cancel the races this weekend if this **** continues." There were multiple contacts, and off courses in the FIRST practice.
At the top of the esses, a car passed me on the outside, going maybe 40mph faster than I was..............and he was going backwards! Drivers, you gotta use your heads!

Poor-sha

Dan H.

I'm interested in learning more about the tracks that eat cars. I think a big part of learning and gaining experience is learning new lines and layouts. Which tracks are the ones to be leery of? I like to dream and plan about going to new tracks. If they are trouble then I won't be in a hurry to run them.

I feel like Watkins Glen may be one of them, I've only been there a couple times, but each time the wrecker dropped off destroyed cars in the paddock.

63Corvette

The first 3 times that I went there, drivers died. The blue guardrail comes right to the edge of the track in most places. I have video you wouldn't believe from F1 in the 1970s.

fleming23

I don't know that is a fair statement. From what little I do know about the accident, the car ahead of him had a motor failure/issue which oiled the track. As you come down the back straight at Road Atlanta and though the kink at turn 9, you are basically approaching 10a blind at well over 100 mph, 140-160 in most cases. If the incident happened when the driver was still in turn 7, he may not have seen the oil-down happen. With the exception of the most seasoned, veteran drivers, I am not sure most would instantly recognize the oily surface and adequately react so as to avoid the accident. The flag station at turn 9 may not even have known about the incident to alert the on-coming driver.

Road Atlanta is a fantastic, fun track but is certainly dangerous. I have been there 4 times this year for HPDEs with various groups and each and every event has had at least one totaled car, (back in May a 911, M3 and C7 were all claimed in turns 5, 7 and down the hill to 12).

Han Solo

Condolences to the family!

This is the most information I've read on this accident.

People are always quick to judge and assume that fault lays with a driver or lack of instruction. It definitely raises the question whether you should be driving at these speeds in street trim.

I don't care if you are a seasoned time trial driver or racing license holder. If you come off turn 9 to an oiled down track with no warning you are going to get hurt.

This reaffirms my choice to purchase a tube frame race car for track days. I think I'll be looking into a HANS and full suit too.