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I am completing my second year in HPDE, running a mostly stock 1993 C4. I am giving serious thought to adding a cage during the approaching off season. Having done a good share of Internet research, I find two issues that are critical and which remain unclear.
My plans are HPDE events and possibly time trials; not wheel to wheel racing. With that in mind, may I choose my own design standards, or must I satisfy NASA / SCCA standards? If different answers apply for HPDE vs time trials, please clarify.
Assuming that I decide to proceed, are there reputable suppliers / installers still doing C4's anywhere within 400 miles of Pittsburgh?
A host of other lesser issues also interest me (but are relevant only if the two main ones described above are successfully addressed). Those include streetability, availability of hinged door bars, compatibility with stock interior (dash, door trim), etc.
Comments, advice, referrals, on any of the above will be appreciated.
You will trailer to events then? If you really like working on building the car go ahead but it should be said you can buy one already made for less. I want to drive mine to the track so I am still cageless, ten years of NASA time trial now.
I'm not a fan of trying to combine a full cage with a full interior, especially those stupid hinged door bars. Those just seem like a punctured chest waiting to happen. You can probably get a roll bar tucked away from your head though, that'd give you a place to mount harnesses too. You really need to think farther ahead that just HPDE, what's your long term goal? TT the car? Will it be competitive? W2W? What class? Is there anyone else in that class? Will the car be competitive? Will you care?
I'm not a fan of trying to combine a full cage with a full interior, especially those stupid hinged door bars. Those just seem like a punctured chest waiting to happen. You can probably get a roll bar tucked away from your head though, that'd give you a place to mount harnesses too. You really need to think farther ahead that just HPDE, what's your long term goal? TT the car? Will it be competitive? W2W? What class? Is there anyone else in that class? Will the car be competitive? Will you care?
W2W? - not a goal
TT? - maybe, but only for additional track time in controlled conditions
Will the car be competitive / will I care? - I am only competing against myself. I want to learn the limits of the car and the driver, and to go there consistently, but safely.
Hopefully, those limits ( mechanical and personal) will continue to improve. But I'm doing this on a budget, and am not one of those guys who will spend endlessly chasing the next MPH. But I do see that as my speeds climb, so does the need to better manage the risks.
And as your abilities climb, you may start thinking more long term. Don't screw yourself early on is all I'm saying. I started off with the same mindset and ended up going to comp school my 2nd season and buying a race car. I don't spend endlessly to the last mph, quite the opposite in fact. I focus on the driver and on making the car reliable and the setup not being wrong. I don't see most premade cages as much of a safety item, the majority suck pretty bad and are only good enough to float you through a drag strip inspection.
You will never regret doing right the first time. Either get a premade cage that meets the SCCA GCR rules or NASA's rules or have one made to those specs.
My C4 has a 6 point cage with a halo. I really wouldn't want to have a crash without a helmet. My head is pretty close to the halo and I am 5'6".
Also, the installation of the cage requires some hacking up of the interior.
I'm looking Long term to build or buy a C4 for track use or modify the one I have. Both have pro's and con's. NASA and SCCA have Time Trials and Club Trials respectively that offer more compitiion but NOT W2W and NOT hill climbs. NASA seems to have more stuff in our area for time trials. Pitt Race, Mid-Ohio, Summit all offer NASA TT events. The C4 seems compeitive in TCC if built right like the link. On a budget too. I figure including the car you could do a C4 for less than 15k and done right.
FYI, you don't NEED a full cage for HPDE and TT. I'm going to probably settle for moving my car to STU for SCCA auto-x and seeing where it falls with the NASA ruleset (could bump me to TTB with the STU setup) and running a good roll bar, seats, harness. I think that is more than enough for a lower HP track day that does NON-W2W racing. Still allows it to be streetable too.
Also, Emptnest, you should try to come out to Steel Cities Region SCCA auto-x on October 17th at Pitt Race. I should have my C4 out there unless something off the wall happens between now and then.
My plans are HPDE events and possibly time trials; not wheel to wheel racing. With that in mind, may I choose my own design standards, or must I satisfy NASA / SCCA standards? If different answers apply for HPDE vs time trials, please clarify.
Well, I'm a SCCA Time Trials Chief of Tech.
There's a big difference between PDX (HPDE) , Club Trials and Time Trials
PDX and Club Trials have no roll bar requirements UNLESS you're driving a convertible.
Time Trials is supposedly for full race cars however there are differences in the rules. You only need a 4 point roll bar for TT.
Plus you should download any regional supplementary regulations to double check.
Designing your own roll bar is not a good idea at all.
And, even if the vendor says it will pass SCCA Tech, do your homework and check their product against the rules.
A vendor here stated that his bars were built to SCCA specs, they were not.
Having a full cage in a street car should be a careful decision. Bars close to your head without a helmet are very dangerous. In W2W racing, cage padding is required in addition to a helmet.
This comes up all the time. There's a fascination with putting a cage into a track day car. The cage is actually the easy part.
It's buying the truck and trailer you need to tow the car around that makes this an expensive proposition. I took my car off the street to run track day events. It seemed like a good idea at the time. Actually it was fun for a couple of years.
I now sort of regret that decision.
When you add up the cost of the truck, the trailer and the installation of the cage this is a big decision. BTW - Where do you intend to keep this trailer in between events. All of us who own trailers know this is no easy decision.
I'm not a fan of trying to combine a full cage with a full interior, especially those stupid hinged door bars. Those just seem like a punctured chest waiting to happen. You can probably get a roll bar tucked away from your head though, that'd give you a place to mount harnesses too. You really need to think farther ahead that just HPDE, what's your long term goal? TT the car? Will it be competitive? W2W? What class? Is there anyone else in that class? Will the car be competitive? Will you care?
I have swingouts, they go into a socket, little chance of it going near me in a crash
And as your abilities climb, you may start thinking more long term. Don't screw yourself early on is all I'm saying. I started off with the same mindset and ended up going to comp school my 2nd season and buying a race car.
I hear you. It's hard to predict how my goals might change. I admit that the "I only compete against myself" thinking is sometimes tough to maintain.
Thanks for reminding me to keep my options open......
You will never regret doing right the first time. Either get a premade cage that meets the SCCA GCR rules or NASA's rules or have one made to those specs.
I'm looking Long term to build or buy a C4 for track use or modify the one I have. Both have pro's and con's. NASA and SCCA have Time Trials and Club Trials respectively that offer more compitiion but NOT W2W and NOT hill climbs. NASA seems to have more stuff in our area for time trials. Pitt Race, Mid-Ohio, Summit all offer NASA TT events. The C4 seems compeitive in TCC if built right like the link. On a budget too. I figure including the car you could do a C4 for less than 15k and done right.
FYI, you don't NEED a full cage for HPDE and TT. I'm going to probably settle for moving my car to STU for SCCA auto-x and seeing where it falls with the NASA ruleset (could bump me to TTB with the STU setup) and running a good roll bar, seats, harness. I think that is more than enough for a lower HP track day that does NON-W2W racing. Still allows it to be streetable too.
Also, Emptnest, you should try to come out to Steel Cities Region SCCA auto-x on October 17th at Pitt Race. I should have my C4 out there unless something off the wall happens between now and then.
Rubie - thanks for the build thread. That is very helpful reading.
Unfortunately, I will be out of town 10/17, but I apprecaite the invitation. I look forward to meeting you at Pitt Race sometime soon.
Plus you should download any regional supplementary regulations to double check.
Designing your own roll bar is not a good idea at all.
And, even if the vendor says it will pass SCCA Tech, do your homework and check their product against the rules.
A vendor here stated that his bars were built to SCCA specs, they were not.
I should have worded my posting more carefully. I didn't mean to imply that I would actually design my own cage. I really meant to ask if I could choose a design differing from NASA / SCCA, and if I did, would doing so risk disqualification at their tech inspections for HPDE (even though HPDE doesn't require a cage).
My concern has become moot to a degree. I accept the consensus advice above, that if I do a cage, i should do it right and make sure it complies with NASA /SCCA.
Thus my decision has really morphed to whether I should try to keep the car street able (in which case I would probably forego the cage), or bite the bullet and allow the car to become dedicated to track only. I remain on the fence on that one....
This comes up all the time. There's a fascination with putting a cage into a track day car. The cage is actually the easy part.
It's buying the truck and trailer you need to tow the car around that makes this an expensive proposition. I took my car off the street to run track day events. It seemed like a good idea at the time. Actually it was fun for a couple of years.
I now sort of regret that decision.
When you add up the cost of the truck, the trailer and the installation of the cage this is a big decision. BTW - Where do you intend to keep this trailer in between events. All of us who own trailers know this is no easy decision.
Lots of things to consider here.
Richard Newton
Richard - you are 100% correct. But I have already jumped into the deep end of that pool (having already purchased truck and trailer).
I have swingouts, they go into a socket, little chance of it going near me in a crash
Brian - who provided your installation? It appears to be a 4 point roll bar with side bars providing two additional mounting points at their front end.
So is there no halo? And no conflict with the dash or door trim?
Does your installation meet NASA / SCCA spec?
If so, it looks like you may have found a street able compromise...
I should have worded my posting more carefully. I didn't mean to imply that I would actually design my own cage. I really meant to ask if I could choose a design differing from NASA / SCCA, and if I did, would doing so risk disqualification at their tech inspections for HPDE (even though HPDE doesn't require a cage).
My concern has become moot to a degree. I accept the consensus advice above, that if I do a cage, i should do it right and make sure it complies with NASA /SCCA.
Thus my decision has really morphed to whether I should try to keep the car street able (in which case I would probably forego the cage), or bite the bullet and allow the car to become dedicated to track only. I remain on the fence on that one....
There's no place on a SCCA PDX/Club Trials Tech form that requires a tech inspection of the roll bar/cage so, you would not be DQ'd in tech (excludes convertables).
That being said, I'd still go with the NASA/SCCA specs for safety reasons.
If you look at Cunningman's last pic, that 4 point would pass a Time Trials tech WITHOUT the 2 door bars (provided that the tube dia. and thickness are to the rules, which can't be determined with a pic).
All you need for Time Trials is a 4 point with the supports extending to the rear. The door bars are not a tech item.
09-16-2015, 08:53 PM
C4 cage - features and availability
