EPA is After Our Race Cars [MERGED]
#21
Safety Car
Keep in mind that NASCAR is one of the top 3 contributors to the GOP in Florida.
There is even a special depreciation schedule for NASCAR (actually ISC) in the IRS code. Check out IRS Pub. 946.
If you can get a special depreciation schedule from the IRS do you think NASCAR is worried about the EPA?
Even the Dems take care of racing. Democratic Senator Stabenow wrote S. 1624, the Motorsports Fairness and Permanency Act.
On a similar point Well Fargo wrote down $17.6 million of NASCAR debt when the HOF in Charlotte went bad. Did Wells Fargo do that for any of you?
Racing is about money. The people who run racing know all about money and governmental control.
Richard Newton
There is even a special depreciation schedule for NASCAR (actually ISC) in the IRS code. Check out IRS Pub. 946.
If you can get a special depreciation schedule from the IRS do you think NASCAR is worried about the EPA?
Even the Dems take care of racing. Democratic Senator Stabenow wrote S. 1624, the Motorsports Fairness and Permanency Act.
On a similar point Well Fargo wrote down $17.6 million of NASCAR debt when the HOF in Charlotte went bad. Did Wells Fargo do that for any of you?
Racing is about money. The people who run racing know all about money and governmental control.
Richard Newton
#22
Race Director
The EPA is a communist organization pushing extreme global warming/climate change garbage.
The EPA needs to have its staff & $ reduced by 99%.
They are begging for a HUGE fight on this. We need to take the EPA down permanently for this attack on us.
The EPA needs to have its staff & $ reduced by 99%.
They are begging for a HUGE fight on this. We need to take the EPA down permanently for this attack on us.
#23
Pro
#24
Safety Car
Richard, this has nothing to do with purpose built (e.g., R07 etc etc) engines, it is about using engines/cars that were certified and then modifying the emissions equipment.
For example, World Challenge GT3 customer car is exempt (they were never certified for use on public roads), whereas a GTS or TCx car (unless delivered similar to a C5 box car) with no cats or evap etc, or simply with revised engine tuning would run afoul of the rules. EPA said they would not target true (i.e., not dual use) race cars for enforcement (and as far as I know, haven't done so previously).
For example, World Challenge GT3 customer car is exempt (they were never certified for use on public roads), whereas a GTS or TCx car (unless delivered similar to a C5 box car) with no cats or evap etc, or simply with revised engine tuning would run afoul of the rules. EPA said they would not target true (i.e., not dual use) race cars for enforcement (and as far as I know, haven't done so previously).
#25
Safety Car
Member Since: Apr 2001
Location: Sarver Pa
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2021 C1 of the Year Finalist - Modified
It's ANOTHER overreach of government into the lives of the individual. EPA is totally out of control as is our current government. "Vote for change" Hows that workin for us ?
EPA has tried similar measures before, they tried to outlaw after market parts then they tried to make so ONLY licensed dealers could install parts. They got shot down, thank God and SEMA !
EPA has tried similar measures before, they tried to outlaw after market parts then they tried to make so ONLY licensed dealers could install parts. They got shot down, thank God and SEMA !
#27
Drifting
Remember that the EPA is under the control of CARB....and CARB has been making aftermarket parts dealers report to them Who and What parts are bought, and before you can even pay for them you have to sign a release agreeing that CARB and EPA having the right to inspect/confiscate/revoke your reg, and Fine you for putting none approved part on your car.
Mark
Mark
#28
They are begging for a HUGE fight on this. We need to take the EPA down permanently for this attack on us.
If the EPA ceases to exist, the absolute LAST worry you're going to have is the inability to have a racecar when you're breating in toxic **** that all these big manufacturing plants will just put out in the environment.
Look I'm all against this stupid **** the EPA is trying to pull onto us, but let's not go quite as far as saying the whole thing should be taken down.
Last edited by camcam; 02-10-2016 at 11:45 AM.
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#29
Former Vendor
Member Since: Aug 2005
Location: Lewisville TX
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
Richard, this has nothing to do with purpose built (e.g., R07 etc etc) engines, it is about using engines/cars that were certified and then modifying the emissions equipment.
For example, World Challenge GT3 customer car is exempt (they were never certified for use on public roads), whereas a GTS or TCx car (unless delivered similar to a C5 box car) with no cats or evap etc, or simply with revised engine tuning would run afoul of the rules. EPA said they would not target true (i.e., not dual use) race cars for enforcement (and as far as I know, haven't done so previously).
For example, World Challenge GT3 customer car is exempt (they were never certified for use on public roads), whereas a GTS or TCx car (unless delivered similar to a C5 box car) with no cats or evap etc, or simply with revised engine tuning would run afoul of the rules. EPA said they would not target true (i.e., not dual use) race cars for enforcement (and as far as I know, haven't done so previously).
Take all of our World Challenge cars (save for the Aston and Camaro), by default this bill would have made every one of those cars illegal. Even our ALMS GT2 car started life as a VIN tagged production car. Most of our WC cars were salvage cars but still a street car converted to race status.
What it is going to do is force the little guy that wants to build his own race car from a salvage yard or his now second car to a race car and force them into buying a "new" factory car like a Porsche Motorsports/COPO/Cobra Jet/Aston GT3 kind of thing.
No more home built NASA or SCCA cars you now have to go off and drop $150-400k on a factory built race car.
Even aside from road racing like we do, what about the guy that wants to take a 2010 camaro and drop a BBC in it and do NHRA Super Stock or AFX or bracket racing on the weekends? Again the way I read this he would have to go drop $150k on a COPO to legally do that.
Not only would it restrict businesses selling the parts but also a lot of normal men and women that like to partake in the motorsports hobby on the weekends.
#30
Le Mans Master
man, sure wish our government agencies had better things to do than pick on an innocent hobby that generates revenue all over.
Suppose this would also include cop cars :-0
Suppose this would also include cop cars :-0
#32
Safety Car
This is starting to sound like the rants of a bunch of old men.
Richard
Richard
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Katech_Zach (02-10-2016)
#34
Premium Supporting Vendor
Exactly
#35
Le Mans Master
A friend of mine posted this on Facebook, I thought I should share...
Here's a very clear summary of the issue at hand regarding the EPA vs. SEMA. Technically all of us who modify a car that originally had a VIN are breaking the law and subject to fines. Technically an EPA compliance officer could show up at VIR and start fining all of us. Lets hope SEMA can inject come common sense into the Government; I don't have my hopes up.
"Here's a blurb from a good friend of mine who's worked in the auto/performance industry for most of his life: Let me share with you what was discussed at the SEMA round table seminar during the show in November 2015 in Las Vegas. The meeting was supposed to about 1 hr long. It went well over 3 hrs with the Q&A session. We had well over 300 industry representatives from just about every performance aftermarket company you can think of in attendance.
On the stage we had;
Peter Treydte - SEMA Compliance Center Manager Jim Mc Farland - SEMA Technical Consultant Evan Belser - US EPA Mobil Source Enforcement Branch, Civil Branch Chief Tony Martino - CARB, Aftermarket Part Section Manager Mike Spagnola - SEMA VP, OE Relationship and Product Development Russ Deane - SEMA General Counsel
I have a 32 page PP presentation in pdf format that I can send you, but let my try to simplify what was said.
The following terms are misconceptions in our industry;
"49 state legal"
"not legal for use in California"
"for off road use only"
The EPA has defaulted to CARB to determine if the part that can effect the vehicle's emissions compliant is legal or not. If it is legal for use in California then it is 50 states legal. If is is not legal for use in California, then it is not legal for use in any of the 50 states.
CARB and the EPA have the right to enforce emission compliance for off road use vehicles.
What Evan basically told us in a nut shell was that we have a very nice show with lots of enthusiasm, but well over 90% of the products that effect the emission compliance of the vehicle that were showcased at the show are in fact illegal and that the producers, sellers and installers of these products can face both civil and criminal charges and penalties. Only those items that effect the emission compliance of the vehicle and are either exact replacement parts or those that have been issued a CARB EO number are legal.
What it boils down to by the letter of the law is that if a vehicle had a VIN number assigned to it's chassis by the OE manufacture, then no matter where it is driven or how it is used, the vehicle's emissions compliance must be maintained and those devices installed by the OE manufacture to meet those requirements can not be removed or tampered with - period. Please remember that emission control devises date back to the mid '60's with the first PVC systems and air pumps.
Now think about that for a few minutes. Many of us have cars that we own and use at the track. These car are no longer driven on the street, they do not have license plate(s) nor are they insured for use on the street. They are trailered to and from the track and are only driven at the track. Yet by the letter of the law they still must be in 100% emissions complaint and all the aftermarket parts that effect this emissions complacence must either be exact replacement items or come from the parts manufacture with a CARB EO number.
The only vehicles that are currently exempt from the emissions requirements are either vehicles built prior to the installation of emissions control devices (basically 1964 and older) or are purpose built tube chassis professional race cars. The parts that are installed on these and only these vehicles do not have to have a CARB EO number. But if those parts do not have the CARB EO number, then those same parts that can effect the emission compliance of a vehicle can't be installed on a vehicle that originally came with a VIN number and had emission control devises install by the OE manufacture.
Here is an example. You have a 1961 Ford Fairlane with a 390 FE motor and want to replace OE points distributor with an electronic breakerless unit, you can buy one with or without a CARB EO number and there are no issues. But if you have a 1969 Mustang with a 390 FE engine and want to do the same upgrade, you have to use a breakerless distributor with a CARB issued EO number to be legal.
Let's look at something a bit closer to home, say Spec Miata for example. Per the letter of the law, every car is illegal, ever car owner is in violation of the law and worst yet, Mazda though its MazdaSpeed group's product offering is also in violation of the law. Each and every individual part that effects the emission compliance of the vehicle that does not have a CARB EO number is illegal and is subject to a fine up to $37,500 per violation. Several parts on each car, 30-40 cars at each event... Let that sink for a moment - now you are getting the idea.
Yes this specific piece of legislation is meant to clarify and reinforce the existing law. What SEMA would like to see here is some common sense being applied to this - basically a revision to the existing law that would be the exact opposite of what is noted in this proposed legislation. What we would like to see is an exemption that would allow for a vehicle that has been converted for off road use, that no longer has license plate(s) that is no longer driven on nor insured for use on the street, to be exempt from the emission compliance that it was held to when it was originally manufactured.
Yes SEMA wants all its members to be manufacturing legal parts. It now has a certified emissions lab to help its member get though the CARB testing and approval process so that an EO number can be issued for those parts. At best if everything goes perfectly, it takes about 5-6 months and about $12-15K dollar to get an CARB EO number issued for a performance replace part or family of parts. There are also some parts that will simple never be able to be made emissions complaint and some parts that currently have CARB EO numbers that should never have been granted one in the first place and if they were resubmitted for approval now, would in the light of today's scrutiny, not be approved.
Yes it is unlikely that CARB and the EPA will show up at sportsman type racing event and start inspecting cars and fining the owners. But they may start to track down every VIN number to have proof that those vehicles either are still in emissions compliant and legal for use on the street or they are in a salvage yard somewhere or have been "recycled".
So in conclusion, yes it is time to go "all Buffalo Bill" about this issue of it being legal or not to convert a street legal vehicle into a track use only vehicle. This is directed squarely at us,both the professionals that make and sell the parts and the enthusiasts / hobbyist that use those parts on our vehicles no matter where they are driven."
"Here's a blurb from a good friend of mine who's worked in the auto/performance industry for most of his life: Let me share with you what was discussed at the SEMA round table seminar during the show in November 2015 in Las Vegas. The meeting was supposed to about 1 hr long. It went well over 3 hrs with the Q&A session. We had well over 300 industry representatives from just about every performance aftermarket company you can think of in attendance.
On the stage we had;
Peter Treydte - SEMA Compliance Center Manager Jim Mc Farland - SEMA Technical Consultant Evan Belser - US EPA Mobil Source Enforcement Branch, Civil Branch Chief Tony Martino - CARB, Aftermarket Part Section Manager Mike Spagnola - SEMA VP, OE Relationship and Product Development Russ Deane - SEMA General Counsel
I have a 32 page PP presentation in pdf format that I can send you, but let my try to simplify what was said.
The following terms are misconceptions in our industry;
"49 state legal"
"not legal for use in California"
"for off road use only"
The EPA has defaulted to CARB to determine if the part that can effect the vehicle's emissions compliant is legal or not. If it is legal for use in California then it is 50 states legal. If is is not legal for use in California, then it is not legal for use in any of the 50 states.
CARB and the EPA have the right to enforce emission compliance for off road use vehicles.
What Evan basically told us in a nut shell was that we have a very nice show with lots of enthusiasm, but well over 90% of the products that effect the emission compliance of the vehicle that were showcased at the show are in fact illegal and that the producers, sellers and installers of these products can face both civil and criminal charges and penalties. Only those items that effect the emission compliance of the vehicle and are either exact replacement parts or those that have been issued a CARB EO number are legal.
What it boils down to by the letter of the law is that if a vehicle had a VIN number assigned to it's chassis by the OE manufacture, then no matter where it is driven or how it is used, the vehicle's emissions compliance must be maintained and those devices installed by the OE manufacture to meet those requirements can not be removed or tampered with - period. Please remember that emission control devises date back to the mid '60's with the first PVC systems and air pumps.
Now think about that for a few minutes. Many of us have cars that we own and use at the track. These car are no longer driven on the street, they do not have license plate(s) nor are they insured for use on the street. They are trailered to and from the track and are only driven at the track. Yet by the letter of the law they still must be in 100% emissions complaint and all the aftermarket parts that effect this emissions complacence must either be exact replacement items or come from the parts manufacture with a CARB EO number.
The only vehicles that are currently exempt from the emissions requirements are either vehicles built prior to the installation of emissions control devices (basically 1964 and older) or are purpose built tube chassis professional race cars. The parts that are installed on these and only these vehicles do not have to have a CARB EO number. But if those parts do not have the CARB EO number, then those same parts that can effect the emission compliance of a vehicle can't be installed on a vehicle that originally came with a VIN number and had emission control devises install by the OE manufacture.
Here is an example. You have a 1961 Ford Fairlane with a 390 FE motor and want to replace OE points distributor with an electronic breakerless unit, you can buy one with or without a CARB EO number and there are no issues. But if you have a 1969 Mustang with a 390 FE engine and want to do the same upgrade, you have to use a breakerless distributor with a CARB issued EO number to be legal.
Let's look at something a bit closer to home, say Spec Miata for example. Per the letter of the law, every car is illegal, ever car owner is in violation of the law and worst yet, Mazda though its MazdaSpeed group's product offering is also in violation of the law. Each and every individual part that effects the emission compliance of the vehicle that does not have a CARB EO number is illegal and is subject to a fine up to $37,500 per violation. Several parts on each car, 30-40 cars at each event... Let that sink for a moment - now you are getting the idea.
Yes this specific piece of legislation is meant to clarify and reinforce the existing law. What SEMA would like to see here is some common sense being applied to this - basically a revision to the existing law that would be the exact opposite of what is noted in this proposed legislation. What we would like to see is an exemption that would allow for a vehicle that has been converted for off road use, that no longer has license plate(s) that is no longer driven on nor insured for use on the street, to be exempt from the emission compliance that it was held to when it was originally manufactured.
Yes SEMA wants all its members to be manufacturing legal parts. It now has a certified emissions lab to help its member get though the CARB testing and approval process so that an EO number can be issued for those parts. At best if everything goes perfectly, it takes about 5-6 months and about $12-15K dollar to get an CARB EO number issued for a performance replace part or family of parts. There are also some parts that will simple never be able to be made emissions complaint and some parts that currently have CARB EO numbers that should never have been granted one in the first place and if they were resubmitted for approval now, would in the light of today's scrutiny, not be approved.
Yes it is unlikely that CARB and the EPA will show up at sportsman type racing event and start inspecting cars and fining the owners. But they may start to track down every VIN number to have proof that those vehicles either are still in emissions compliant and legal for use on the street or they are in a salvage yard somewhere or have been "recycled".
So in conclusion, yes it is time to go "all Buffalo Bill" about this issue of it being legal or not to convert a street legal vehicle into a track use only vehicle. This is directed squarely at us,both the professionals that make and sell the parts and the enthusiasts / hobbyist that use those parts on our vehicles no matter where they are driven."
#36
Le Mans Master
My question is why does this bill have 832 pages plus. How many people actually read it completely not just the part they slipped in? No wonder the government the way it is.. Most properly running race cars have a good chance of passing emissions tests. Clean burning engines make the most power. Fuel economy is another matter. As motorsports moves towards ethanol which burns cleaner ,unfortunately at twice the rate of gasoline, emissions should be less of a concern. The Automobile Manufacturers don't want the public working on anything more than basic maintenance. There have been many discussions dealing with intellectual property or licence related to altering software and/or components related powertrain, stability or safety related systems. The OE is trying to use the laws that Microsoft used dealing with shared software to prevent use of their OS without paying them for it.
#38
#39
Safety Car
You will buy your headers at the corner of the street like other illegal products, it will be made with hand tools in some kid's garage who is willing to risk getting caught for a large profit that you will pay him. Then your *** will shake when you use it on a known track at a publicized driving event. What a way to enjoy the best sport there ever was. EPA just has to swing by once or twice by the racetrack and impose the maximum jail/fine/car crushed on everyone that has a tuned car. The potential for that happening to you is what will enforce the law.