Would you buy a car with a bad carfax?
03-17-2016, 12:36 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Would you buy a car with a bad carfax?
I'm looking for a car just for HPDE's. I know I'll sell it in 2-3 years as I want to go into a caged car, but can't tow one right now. so in buying, I've got to look at marketability on the back end.
I've found an '03 Z that would suit my needs very well. in the past 4 years the owner has over $50K of work receipts and the mechanicals are basically new (coil over suspension, SKF bearings, poly bushings, a complete engine rebuild by a national performance shop with balancing and track related upgrades, 4pt roll bar, cooling upgrades, BBK front and back, etc). I've talked to the shop that built it. good car, they have a lot of respect for it.
Before pulling the trigger, I pulled the carfax. 6 owners, 1 theft and 2 accidents. All several owners before the current owner, so I don't have any mechanical concerns about the car, but how's this going to play out when I need to sell it in 2-3 years.
I figure the population reading this forum is the population of would be buyers, so I figured I'd get feedback.
Even with a ridiculous stack of maintenance and upgrade receipts, does this become a car no one will buy?
or do people look at the fact that it's been tracked for a number of years, realize the car runs fine and say the carfax is not a concern?
or do people say, "at 90K miles the entire drivetrain and suspension was rebuilt, so it's essentially a new car and consumables will be less?
open to feedback. Thanks
I've found an '03 Z that would suit my needs very well. in the past 4 years the owner has over $50K of work receipts and the mechanicals are basically new (coil over suspension, SKF bearings, poly bushings, a complete engine rebuild by a national performance shop with balancing and track related upgrades, 4pt roll bar, cooling upgrades, BBK front and back, etc). I've talked to the shop that built it. good car, they have a lot of respect for it.
Before pulling the trigger, I pulled the carfax. 6 owners, 1 theft and 2 accidents. All several owners before the current owner, so I don't have any mechanical concerns about the car, but how's this going to play out when I need to sell it in 2-3 years.
I figure the population reading this forum is the population of would be buyers, so I figured I'd get feedback.
Even with a ridiculous stack of maintenance and upgrade receipts, does this become a car no one will buy?
or do people look at the fact that it's been tracked for a number of years, realize the car runs fine and say the carfax is not a concern?
or do people say, "at 90K miles the entire drivetrain and suspension was rebuilt, so it's essentially a new car and consumables will be less?
open to feedback. Thanks
03-17-2016, 12:45 PM
#2
Drifting
You've actually answered your own question by asking it.
If you are concerned with a resale, I personally would stay clear of it unless it is at half value which I'm sure it isn't. $50K in receipts is meaningless and it sounds like just another over built track car.
You can not do anything more in that car at HPDE's than you can in a good clean stock C5Z except spend more money on it.
If you are concerned with a resale, I personally would stay clear of it unless it is at half value which I'm sure it isn't. $50K in receipts is meaningless and it sounds like just another over built track car.
You can not do anything more in that car at HPDE's than you can in a good clean stock C5Z except spend more money on it.
03-17-2016, 02:47 PM
#3
Instructor
Thread Starter
Yup, I get that by posting, I'm answering the question, that "I" personally have concern. then again, I'm pretty conservative, so I was looking for how the HPDE population would view it.
I also get that there is no "winner" at HPDE, so all the prep does not correlate to something "better", but I am looking for a car that has already handled issues like cooling (radiator and oil), braking, seats etc. I get that by buying a car with the stuff I'd likely do, the parts come at pennies on the dollar.
as for pricing, the car has been coming down in price and is now mid-upper 20's. Based on what I've seen, the car is still a little above the pricing for decently prep'd cars. Add in the carfax and the mid-90's odometer and it still seems a little high.
I also get that there is no "winner" at HPDE, so all the prep does not correlate to something "better", but I am looking for a car that has already handled issues like cooling (radiator and oil), braking, seats etc. I get that by buying a car with the stuff I'd likely do, the parts come at pennies on the dollar.
as for pricing, the car has been coming down in price and is now mid-upper 20's. Based on what I've seen, the car is still a little above the pricing for decently prep'd cars. Add in the carfax and the mid-90's odometer and it still seems a little high.
You've actually answered your own question by asking it.
If you are concerned with a resale, I personally would stay clear of it unless it is at half value which I'm sure it isn't. $50K in receipts is meaningless and it sounds like just another over built track car.
You can not do anything more in that car at HPDE's than you can in a good clean stock C5Z except spend more money on it.
If you are concerned with a resale, I personally would stay clear of it unless it is at half value which I'm sure it isn't. $50K in receipts is meaningless and it sounds like just another over built track car.
You can not do anything more in that car at HPDE's than you can in a good clean stock C5Z except spend more money on it.
03-17-2016, 03:34 PM
#4
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Oct 1999
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Bad CarFax on a car that old doesn't mean squat unless it is a recent event. You can tell by how it drives and looks to know if there is truly a problem. 6 owners doesn't mean a thing on a 13 year old car other than some people bought it and beat on it and didn't put any money in it to fix it all they did was sell it.
It is just an old car with track mods installed. Your concern should be the overall condition, whether the mods work together and have been installed correctly all stuff that would concern you even if the car fax is clean.
Think of it this way the current owner didn't worry about it. He bought the car and did his mods, used it and is selling. If you buy it you will find a purchaser who won't worry a bit about ancient history. Your problem is if you sell it in 3 years is whether anybody will be interested in buying it clean carfax or not. It is 13 years old now and will be 16 years old then. People start worrying about buying cars that old due to parts availability etc. We already know there are some parts availability issues with the C5s.
Forget about the carfax and negotiate based on the miles, age and mods. You do realize with miles in the mid 90s and being 13 years old the car is a low mile car that averaged about 7300 miles per year? Back when C5s were in production some people that drove them regularly put over 200K miles on them.
Bill
It is just an old car with track mods installed. Your concern should be the overall condition, whether the mods work together and have been installed correctly all stuff that would concern you even if the car fax is clean.
Think of it this way the current owner didn't worry about it. He bought the car and did his mods, used it and is selling. If you buy it you will find a purchaser who won't worry a bit about ancient history. Your problem is if you sell it in 3 years is whether anybody will be interested in buying it clean carfax or not. It is 13 years old now and will be 16 years old then. People start worrying about buying cars that old due to parts availability etc. We already know there are some parts availability issues with the C5s.
Forget about the carfax and negotiate based on the miles, age and mods. You do realize with miles in the mid 90s and being 13 years old the car is a low mile car that averaged about 7300 miles per year? Back when C5s were in production some people that drove them regularly put over 200K miles on them.
Bill
Last edited by Bill Dearborn; 03-17-2016 at 03:41 PM.
03-17-2016, 04:00 PM
#5
Melting Slicks
Pro Mechanic
Member Since: Nov 2013
Location: Ex DPRK, now just N of Medford, OR
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Forget the carfax. It's been a track car, and that scares people worse than any theft or accident history. If you can buy it right, use it as intended, sell it correspondingly.
General rule of thumb: any mods that are on a car add virtually NO value to the price and might actually devalue it.
General rule of thumb: any mods that are on a car add virtually NO value to the price and might actually devalue it.
03-17-2016, 04:21 PM
#6
Drifting
Yup, I get that by posting, I'm answering the question, that "I" personally have concern. then again, I'm pretty conservative, so I was looking for how the HPDE population would view it.
I also get that there is no "winner" at HPDE, so all the prep does not correlate to something "better", but I am looking for a car that has already handled issues like cooling (radiator and oil), braking, seats etc. I get that by buying a car with the stuff I'd likely do, the parts come at pennies on the dollar.
as for pricing, the car has been coming down in price and is now mid-upper 20's. Based on what I've seen, the car is still a little above the pricing for decently prep'd cars. Add in the carfax and the mid-90's odometer and it still seems a little high.
I also get that there is no "winner" at HPDE, so all the prep does not correlate to something "better", but I am looking for a car that has already handled issues like cooling (radiator and oil), braking, seats etc. I get that by buying a car with the stuff I'd likely do, the parts come at pennies on the dollar.
as for pricing, the car has been coming down in price and is now mid-upper 20's. Based on what I've seen, the car is still a little above the pricing for decently prep'd cars. Add in the carfax and the mid-90's odometer and it still seems a little high.
A good T-1 car can be bought for less so you actually are paying for the mods, which IMHO, will do nothing for you except possible the cooling.
Good luck
03-17-2016, 04:55 PM
#8
Safety Car
A bad Carfax is a blessing! It means you can negotiate way down. I agree with assessments above about price. A known "abused" Z06 is in the mid to high teens.
I would not buy one with an accident on it, however, if if were intended as a track car. For a street car, i don't care. I can tell by driving it if it's repaired properly.
NEVER pay for mods, they are instantly worth $0 once they are installed on a car. They can sway you toward a particular car in a similar price range, but most likely they were installed improperly and half of them may need to be tossed in the garbage.
Flood cars and theft cars are heaven sent if you can do your own work.
I would not buy one with an accident on it, however, if if were intended as a track car. For a street car, i don't care. I can tell by driving it if it's repaired properly.
NEVER pay for mods, they are instantly worth $0 once they are installed on a car. They can sway you toward a particular car in a similar price range, but most likely they were installed improperly and half of them may need to be tossed in the garbage.
Flood cars and theft cars are heaven sent if you can do your own work.
Last edited by ScaryFast; 03-17-2016 at 04:56 PM.
03-17-2016, 05:29 PM
#9
Race Director
Forget the carfax. It's been a track car, and that scares people worse than any theft or accident history. If you can buy it right, use it as intended, sell it correspondingly.
General rule of thumb: any mods that are on a car add virtually NO value to the price and might actually devalue it.
General rule of thumb: any mods that are on a car add virtually NO value to the price and might actually devalue it.
03-17-2016, 06:29 PM
#10
Instructor
Thread Starter
thanks for input ScaryFast.
I'm not worried about the car mechanically. I've got about 30 pages of receipts. most of parts and maintenance were done by http://www.xplosiveperformance.com/. I think they are a quite competent track shop and the motor was built in Sept by https://www.golenengineservice.com/. and they seem like a very competent engine builder. body and paint might not be perfect, that will bite me when I sell.
Price-wise, I agree, parts become worth $0. that said, most of the cars with basic track stuff done (cooling, BBK, seats), seem to be $20-24K. could be wrong. only been looking since mid-Jan. funny enough, full race cars seem to be in the same range.
I'm not worried about the car mechanically. I've got about 30 pages of receipts. most of parts and maintenance were done by http://www.xplosiveperformance.com/. I think they are a quite competent track shop and the motor was built in Sept by https://www.golenengineservice.com/. and they seem like a very competent engine builder. body and paint might not be perfect, that will bite me when I sell.
Price-wise, I agree, parts become worth $0. that said, most of the cars with basic track stuff done (cooling, BBK, seats), seem to be $20-24K. could be wrong. only been looking since mid-Jan. funny enough, full race cars seem to be in the same range.
A bad Carfax is a blessing! It means you can negotiate way down. I agree with assessments above about price. A known "abused" Z06 is in the mid to high teens.
I would not buy one with an accident on it, however, if if were intended as a track car. For a street car, i don't care. I can tell by driving it if it's repaired properly.
NEVER pay for mods, they are instantly worth $0 once they are installed on a car. They can sway you toward a particular car in a similar price range, but most likely they were installed improperly and half of them may need to be tossed in the garbage.
Flood cars and theft cars are heaven sent if you can do your own work.
I would not buy one with an accident on it, however, if if were intended as a track car. For a street car, i don't care. I can tell by driving it if it's repaired properly.
NEVER pay for mods, they are instantly worth $0 once they are installed on a car. They can sway you toward a particular car in a similar price range, but most likely they were installed improperly and half of them may need to be tossed in the garbage.
Flood cars and theft cars are heaven sent if you can do your own work.
Last edited by cre8fun; 03-17-2016 at 06:29 PM.
03-17-2016, 08:56 PM
#11
Le Mans Master
So... it's this car: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...track-car.html ?
$13k for a motor that only makes 435hp to the wheels and doesn't have a dry sump?
$13k for a motor that only makes 435hp to the wheels and doesn't have a dry sump?
03-17-2016, 09:23 PM
#12
Instructor
Thread Starter
I purposely did not post links to any particular car or say which car because if the consensus was adverse, I really did not want a thread that ended up bashing someone's car. I'm not looking to hurt someone feelings or dash their chances of sale. I'm more focused on looking at how a car with these characteristics would be received by the buying community when I wanted to move on to a caged car in a few years. I figure the population that would buy a track prepped C5 is largely the same as those on this forum, so probably the best preview of reaction/reception would be found here.
Actually the reaction has been surprising.
I expected that mods were essentially worth $0 once on the car. that's the reason I was looking for a car with mods I want, so they are essentially free/cheap.
Given the history, I wondered if the consensus would have been "no way in hell," and actually it's been pretty mixed. As far as carfax type history, it seems like I've just got to decide if I want to sell a car with a "story." that's never a fun process, but it sounds like with a mixed use car it's less of an issue than a normal street car.
The most surprising thing to me has been price. over the past few months I've been looking at it seemed to me that a decent C5z with track mods would run 20-24K and some feel that's laughably high. that's confusing to me as I've not seen that in the market. I have seen some non-z cars for mid teens, but not z cars.
Actually the reaction has been surprising.
I expected that mods were essentially worth $0 once on the car. that's the reason I was looking for a car with mods I want, so they are essentially free/cheap.
Given the history, I wondered if the consensus would have been "no way in hell," and actually it's been pretty mixed. As far as carfax type history, it seems like I've just got to decide if I want to sell a car with a "story." that's never a fun process, but it sounds like with a mixed use car it's less of an issue than a normal street car.
The most surprising thing to me has been price. over the past few months I've been looking at it seemed to me that a decent C5z with track mods would run 20-24K and some feel that's laughably high. that's confusing to me as I've not seen that in the market. I have seen some non-z cars for mid teens, but not z cars.
So... it's this car: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...track-car.html ?
$13k for a motor that only makes 435hp to the wheels and doesn't have a dry sump?
$13k for a motor that only makes 435hp to the wheels and doesn't have a dry sump?
Last edited by cre8fun; 03-17-2016 at 09:25 PM.
03-17-2016, 10:08 PM
#13
Pro
If you are looking to sell in 2-3 years to upgrade to a track car, do not buy a track car now. Buy a 100% stock C5 in very good condition and at a reasonable price (~$17K) and sell it in 2-years. If you buy a track car now, spend less than that. It's always a buyers market for cars mod'd for the track.
03-18-2016, 09:07 AM
#15
Safety Car
There's a sweet red 2002 Z06 flood car with a clean title on ebay hovering around $10k, buy it now of $15k.
I would go buy that one. It apparently was never actually flooded, just labelled as such due to the area it was registered during Katrina. Worth the risk, IMO.
I would go buy that one. It apparently was never actually flooded, just labelled as such due to the area it was registered during Katrina. Worth the risk, IMO.
03-18-2016, 09:39 AM
#16
Instructor
Thread Starter
Good lord. ok, maybe I have a new definition of a bad Carfax. That report says Salvage, possible total loss, vehicle registered to an insurance company. I get the seller saying it only got that because it was "registered in a flood area during katrina" but I don't see an insurance company taking registration to a car and paying out if the car was fine. I also don't see an owner taking an insurance payout if the car did not go swimming. IF the car was fine, owner would get more by selling it retail.
in any case, in 2-3 years, I'd have a heck of a lot harder time explaining this carfax when compared to 2 accidents in '07.
in any case, in 2-3 years, I'd have a heck of a lot harder time explaining this carfax when compared to 2 accidents in '07.
03-18-2016, 10:47 AM
#17
Good on you for doing your research.
I'll never buy another car with a bad carfax. I've had far too many issues with them in the past. It's amazing how even a minor accident can tweak a body and then all the fancy new parts you bought don't fit worth a damn.
It doesn't matter how well they said they fixed something, how minor the damage was, how easily they drove it, how they said it's never had any issues, etc etc. There's no way to truly tell. It's just their word you have to rely on and it's not worth the hassle. Anyone can lie. It's human nature. Their objective is to get you to buy the car. Of course they're not going to disclose certain things.
If you're going to build something, start with a good platform. It'll save you headaches in the long run. There are PLENTY of non-wrecked cars out there with squeaky clean histories. Might cost you a bit more, but that's just the reality.
I'll never buy another car with a bad carfax. I've had far too many issues with them in the past. It's amazing how even a minor accident can tweak a body and then all the fancy new parts you bought don't fit worth a damn.
It doesn't matter how well they said they fixed something, how minor the damage was, how easily they drove it, how they said it's never had any issues, etc etc. There's no way to truly tell. It's just their word you have to rely on and it's not worth the hassle. Anyone can lie. It's human nature. Their objective is to get you to buy the car. Of course they're not going to disclose certain things.
If you're going to build something, start with a good platform. It'll save you headaches in the long run. There are PLENTY of non-wrecked cars out there with squeaky clean histories. Might cost you a bit more, but that's just the reality.
03-18-2016, 06:22 PM
#18
Safety Car
If you are looking to sell in 2-3 years to upgrade to a track car, do not buy a track car now. Buy a 100% stock C5 in very good condition and at a reasonable price (~$17K) and sell it in 2-years. If you buy a track car now, spend less than that. It's always a buyers market for cars mod'd for the track.
Charley
Last edited by Charley Hoyt; 03-18-2016 at 06:23 PM.
03-19-2016, 08:28 PM
#19
Instructor
Thread Starter
OK, maybe I take a different route. let's say I buy a predominantly stock car and plan to sell in a few years. the C5z seems to have issues with cooling(radiator), oil temp, maybe trans temp and brakes.
if I look for a stock to track, 30-40 times and sell, do I got with a C6Z? What does that need stock out of the box? is the factory dry sump OK for track as long as I limit to street tires and R1's or does it need help. what about cooling and brakes?
if I look for a stock to track, 30-40 times and sell, do I got with a C6Z? What does that need stock out of the box? is the factory dry sump OK for track as long as I limit to street tires and R1's or does it need help. what about cooling and brakes?