jtmck

Are you sure about the C7"s?
Did I miss read (up to 2013)?

Nokones

Hi Jim:

Look on page1 of the handout under eligible vehicles. They only list the 2013-2017 Viper as excluded. Yes, I noticed that page 2 under CAM-S doesn't reflect that. I'm sure that is an oops on Raleigh's part.

MatthewMiller

Raleigh already as much as said he is fixing the oversight on weight.

Yeah, the changes do almost nothing to address the problems in CAM-S, and they actually potentially add a new problem. The ongoing problems are the eligibility of kit cars and tube frame cars, the allowance of Cobras, and the huge weight penalty assessed to C4+ Corvettes and Vipers. The new rules still allow tube frames and kit cars - in fact they specifically say it's okay to replace the frame and bodywork of a car, which means that exactly zero percent of a CAM car has to have come from an actual production car. So all three CAM classes are officially silhouette car classes that don't require one to start with a...ahem...classic American muscle car. Well, I guess you have to steal a VIN tag from something and tape it to your car, because these cars are supposed to all be insured and inspected as production road cars. What a joke!

The 50lb weight increase is trivial and pointless. The problem remains that the actual class American production cars that make up the vast majority of any CAM-S grid (Corvettes) are still racing at a 400lb disadvantage. This is/was intentional. The CAM-S rules are the way they are because certain people very much want a certain car to win, and it isn't a Corvette. Remember that when the first year rules came out, CAM-S had a wheelbase minimum of 90". How convenient for owners of certain British sports cars that were converted to V8 power by an American road racer, and just happen to have come with a 90" wheelbase!

The new problem is the inclusion of Jeeps: you know, those classic American muscle car CJs and Wranglers! Some of them originally had wheelbases of only 83", and no upholstery on the interiors and no windows (think Army versions). So now you don't even have to pretend that your CAM-S car has an interior or cabin. Just build a custom tube frame with custom independent suspension at both ends, and you can plunk a real or carbon fiber Jeep body to it. You can put the engine anywhere you want, as long as the seat is nominally behind it. Sure, it'll start out weighing only 2000lbs or less, but you can easily ballast it to 2500lbs and win all the things. Oh, if you're wondering how the hell a Jeep is considered a classic American muscle car...ask yourself if it's a coincidence that a certain highly regarded autocrosser who seems to be in tight with CAM organizers already has a Corvette/Jeep project in the works.

So the two ringer cars in Classic American Musclecar-S are now a Jeep and a British sports car. Isn't that special?

jcarothers

Can you really complain this much about vehicles that have yet to win a national championship in class? We all see the inherent disadvantage we have, but with the cards stacked against us we can still be competitive in class. You can't bitch about the car dominating the class when it either doesn't exist or hasn't dominated. Until that moment there will no real reason to make changes to kick that car out of class or give the Corvette more leverage.

MatthewMiller

Yes, of course it's legit to complain about it! As I noted before, one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to see that such a car built to the limit of the rules would easily dominate (unless/until another similar car got entered, at least). But more importantly, the ringer cars I'm envisioning have nothing to do with the spirit of the class. It's ridiculous on its face, and it will certainly discourage some people from entering CAM.

BTW, the only time I'm aware of a dedicated tube frame silhouette car entering CAM-S, it won.

jcarothers

It's a class with a very loose rule set. I don't disagree that the car on paper should be better. What I'm saying is that car in this class has to prove to be an issue in order for it to be either removed or relocated. With the inherent advantage said car has, it should be blowing us all out of the water(and with the way it's being complained about, you'd swear it is), but it's not. Until those cars start accomplishing the perceived goal of convincingly smashing the class, we're stuck. So either wait for that day to happen, or everyone starts sandbagging as a whole to remove it. But crying about it when the proof cannot be substantiated isn't going to help anything.

MatthewMiller

I don't need more proof that such a car would have a massive inherent advantage from being light, with a favorable weight distribution, and having a very short wheelbase. We have decades of empirical data and chassis dynamics theory to tell us that. but if that were the only problem, I'd agree that we can let it work itself out when some of these do start showing up. Until then, there would be no harm.

But there is harm being done in other ways now. A tube-frame Jeep or kit car Cobra is way outside the stated intent of the group, and also way outside what most people are willing to buy/build. And I don't need proof to know that the rules are being tailored to favor a few people, at the expense of the many who actually make up the bulk of the class. The point is that anyone who reads the rules ahead of time may think twice before choosing to compete in CAM. We don't have a way of measuring that, but it's a real effect. Why would someone join a class where it's clear that his car is not wanted, or that it's only wanted as filler to bulk up a class that was really intended for Cobra kit cars and tube frame Jeeps? Note that numerous people are already complaining about the Jeep inclusion, and other than on this forum I haven't been one of them. So it's already having an effect.

With all that said, I've said my peace here and elsewhere, and wrote Raleigh during the summer with my (pre-Jeep) concerns. It's done out of a desire to make CAM (and especially S) the best class it can be for the many people who have modified Corvettes and Vipers and want a reasonable class to compete in them. But it's in one guy's hands to determine the rules, and we will have to let it run its course. When a national-caliber driver shows up in one of these ringer cars and it's clear that nobody with a real production car has a chance, either the rules will quickly get changed or the class will wither and die.

mattastick

You're not going to win this argument with him. I've already tried.

I can honestly tell you that CAM-ers like you and NoKones that bitch about everything make me want to do less CAM events than this theoretical car that doesn't exist yet.

If people want to autocross with their Corvettes and Vipers in SCCA, those cars are classed favorably in real classes within the SCCA, especially Corvettes. Those people had a place to play before CAM, and they'll have actual places to play after CAM (if it becomes a jacket class at Nationals, you'll see how quickly Nationally competitive autocrossers can ruin your precious class, though, honestly, they can already do it with nothing more than an AS Corvette).

Nokones

On this comment, I may be speaking out of my a**. I think, without any factual information that I can cite, the reason why some cars with "Less Than Actual Factory Production Chassis" are allowed may be because of the Speedway Built Camaros. Doesn't Speedway sponsor the CAM and other SCCA programs? I don't think the rule was written just for Mike Dusold's Camaro.

Anyone familiar with the Speedway first Gen Camaro in how it is built? That Camaro won the Good Guys Duel In The Desert last weekend against Mike Maier in a C3 Corvette.

If you look at the Good Guys rules, essentially there are none except the tire and registration rule, and the cut-off for what year and model cas can run in the pro class.

It looks like the rules will still allow a highly modified Shopping Cart in CAM-S.

Nokones

[QUOTE=mattastick;1596013880]I can honestly tell you that CAM-ers like you and NoKones that bitch about everything make me want to do less CAM events than this theoretical car that doesn't exist yet.

Sounds like you want to compete in Street Touring? I think that would be a good choice.

mattastick

I'd love a class where when people get beat, they accept that they got beat because of driving rather than bitching and moaning about rules or something else that didn't cause the loss. ES was great because of that, but the cars are boring. Maybe it's time for me to go to Mod...

Nokones

A Miata or a Honda Fit would be a great car for you in Street Touring. You may want to subscribe to the Street Touring Forum.

Corvette CAMmers are very passionate about their cars and the competition. Corvette owners don't mind the competition with other cars as long as it is fair. Competing with cars that are not a true American car and with a weight factor that is about 500-600 pound difference does not make it a fair competition environment.

Both CAM C & T classes have a minimum weight for all cars in their respective class and the CAMmers in CAM-S feel that there should be a minimum weight rule for all cars in the class.

Just because a couple CAM-S competitors get passionate about an unfair issue, that does not make it a bitch fest. It is just an open discussion that is not personal.

You may think it is bitching, it is not. Just because you drive a FRC does not make you a true Corvette competitor and a dedicated/loyal Corvette owner. I bet you probably won't keep your FRC for very much longer or ever own another Corvette.

Personally, I don't care if a Cobra or Mike Dusold runs in the class, I just wish that they compete with the same minimum weight as the rest of the class. No, dropping the Corvettes minimum weight to 2500 pounds is not the answer. There is no way that a legally modified Corvette could ever weigh as low as 2500 pounds.

Fast Cars & Horses

I drove a BS C5 before I got the C6Z last year. I wanted more of a challenge in driving. I was immediately attracted to CAM S because of the American muscle car aspect and I've always been a fan of American muscle (my first car was a '66 Chevelle SS 396!). I love the big horsepower and sound of the loud Borlas. The mods have started and I love that part too. For me, it's about having fun with the car, feeling the power and the challenge that goes with handling it.

I'm only starting my 3rd year in autoX and I'm totally hooked. I have so much to learn and I did go to a couple EVO schools as I'm very competitive and always looking to improve. For a kind of naive participant, I still look at the fun aspect a lot more than the class rules for car inclusion. That being said, I don't call kit cars and Jeeps American muscle, not that they might beat me, because I'm not a national class driver by any means, but because it's not in the spirit of the class. To me, American muscle should bring back the nostalgia of the 60's and 70's (and up) true muscle cars (fast and loud), and provide a place to compete against each other.

As far a street class being boring and wanting more, yes, that's what I felt real quick. Will including Jeeps and kit cars keep me from entering or modding a CAM car...no!...it's way too much fun. I barrel raced and rodeoed my whole life and I've never shied away from competition, I love throwing myself to the wolves because I believe it's the only measure of where you truly stand and gives you something to shoot for. I was in heaven at the CAM Challenge in Mineral Wells Texas competing against Mike Dusold in his awesome Camaro and being surrounded by all those muscle cars. Yes, the kit Cobra was there but there was also this unreal white C4 that really amazed me. It was this event that got me hooked on CAM S and wanting to mod way past an AS car.

I'm like everyone else and I hope to be able to at least hold my own in national competition one of these years, but in the meantime, we are learning to set up the car and having a ball doing it in spite of the kit Cobras and maybe a Jeep (yikes)...

mattastick

1. The Fit is not competitively classed in any ST class, therefore, I'm not going to buy one. The Miata is, but I already owned one of those, and probably won't go back (they are really fun cars though).

2. You're probably right, I won't likely own my FRC that long. Why? Because I have really bad car-ADD and want to tinker constantly. CAM is actually a great fit for me because it has a literally unlimited number of mods that could be done. At some point, some car will move into STU and make the Corvettes no longer competitive. I'm fine with that, as it's the natural progression of lower prep categories. When that happens, I'd like to have a nice outlet to go play. Currently, if I want to run 200tw tires, that means CAM. And every time I go to a CAM event, it's pretty fun. But then I read threads on here and you guys complain non-stop, and I no longer want to play in your sandbox.


It's completely possible within the CAM ruleset to get most cars to 2500lbs (C4s and C5s included, and I'd venture you could go lower if you wanted). In fact, you should build your C4 down to 2500 to show everyone that the low weight is an immeasurable advantage, because you'll win Nationals by multiple seconds, and then Raleigh will have data that he can use to say "yes, this is a problem". Until that happens, you're blowing smoke and it doesn't matter.

MatthewMiller

I don't think it was just for Dusold's Camaro either. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Yeah, there are a few such cars out there, along with a couple of kit car Cobras (which have nothing to do with an original Cobra frame at all). And as I noted, there is a Corvette:Jeep build apparently in progress. So it isn't just one.

That is very important for keeping Mattastick happy!

This...So.much.this.

jcarothers

It just seems like a ton of time fighting against what could be, not what is proven. The only part I agree with to this whole thing is that the weight for the class should be the same across the board. But maybe if there's enough of these tube frame/kit cars that have all the money in the world spent on them to run on 200tw tires, they can eventually have their own lightweight class. As it stands now, the Corvette is holding its ground despite the disadvantage.

It's not really winning I'm shooting for, its understanding. We're stuck with the rule set until there's a reason to change it, not a theoretical car. We all saw the very real possibility of the over-dog car when the class first arrived.

As for the classing of the Corvette in the SCCA rule set, I disagree. It's great if you don't want to mod your car. But the number one thing I hated about both the C6 I had and the C5 I currently own is the crap seats that you cannot change to stay in a street tire class. And I like street tire classes since I don't need a trailer to bring competitive tires to an event.

Wouldn't surprise me if its the idea was to allow those Dynacorn reproduction bodies to run.

Not that this was aimed at me, but I'd love to compete in Street Touring in a C5z, wish that was an option. I like the ST rule set for the most part and moved from STR mid season because I wasn't going to buy a ND Miata to be competitive. I'm running CAM because even a lightly modified street tire C5z fits nowhere else outside of Street class in SCCA. If I can maybe give you CAM guys a run for the money while enjoying being able to run on street tires, so be it. I just think arguing the theoretical car when spending in this class can get absurdly out of hand anyway is silly.

chetly

I heve no problem with the Cobra being in CAM. You can bitch and moan all you want but until the power to be say NO MORE COBRA'S IN CAM-S then there will continue to be cobras in cam-s. I have the distinct pleasure or racing against Scott and Bruce in the "real Cobra". Although they haven't been out with the car in a while and I'm not sure if they'll bring the car back out this year but I've had multiple events where i was within a couple tenths of them. Since they left, my car has gotten inherently faster, i don't know if theirs has. Id welcome the challenge for them to come back just for the sake of argument to see where i stack up against it. If i can consistently beat Scott in the Cobra then i know my car and myself are good to go. If i can't get anywhere close to them, then i might jump on the whiney bitch train of no cobras in cam...

Ive been consistently paxing in the top 10-15 at American Auto-X events and as Ken will attest, thats no small feat. The amount of National Champions that we run with is mind boggling.

l98tpi

I read through the 2018 Rules. Not much of a change except for 40lbs added to non Corvette and Vipers, which is 😎, and 10” tall spoilers now, whew that’s tall. I’m satisfied with the rules and I think they’re fair.

Hope to see you west coast guys at Nationals in 2018🏁

eric1855

Last I checked a C5 thats not that built has won CAM-S Nationals the last two years, beating the one dreaded kit car that I've ever seen at a SCCA Event both times.

Not seeing what the outrage is about.

That Cobra won't be out anymore either from the sounds of it, all the bitching hes moving over to SSC. Which is sad, IMO, as we need MORE competitors, not less...need to make classes, I have to keep winning these tires.

Nokones

Jcarothers - my comment was not directed to you. It was directed to Mattastick.

Scott or Bruce - are you guys running the Cobra or the Porsche at the AAS events next year?