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Interesting issue our Time-Attack group is having. Presently we insist on having roll over protection to allow the use of a harness which also means you need roll over protection to use a head and neck restraint like a HANS system. The fear is that in a roll over, the harness will trap you in your seat leading to a severe neck injury. OTOH, if you don't have a HANS type device, then you are in worse shape as far as your neck is concerned with a frontal impact. Personally, I would rather have a HANS device as a frontal impact seems a lot more likely to me but others disagree.
I'm on your side on this one. I'm about a zillion times more likely to need a hans than a roll hoop. My car has no roll hoop, only a harness bar for my track day duty. I have Corbeau seats and Schroth ASM 4 point harnesses and I wear a Hans for track day. Nobody has ever said anything to me about it and I strongly believe it would be very silly for me to be denied track time based on a rule like this.
And frankly, if I roll my car onto its lid without a roll hoop wearing my 3 point belt and stock seat, I'm most likely WORSE off as I would be with my current setup. The idea that somehow rolling a stock car upside down with street safety equipment is somehow better than race equipment is definitely a bit foreign to me.
i too am doing things in stages, and needed to install fixed back seats but retain factory belts for now until i can do harness bar or cage.
heres what i did.
well before buying it, i had heard alot that the C6 seats were crap, and after doing some track time in them they were right.
ive been eyeing some cheap race seats on ebay for a few months, i wanted fixed position fiberglass seats. but sadly when i was finally ready to buy the ones i wanted(NRG) were sold out everywhere.
but these "Invictus" seats poped up that hadnt shown up in any of my previous searches. the shoulder area was a little narrower than i would have preferred. these also came with the side mounts which i wanted. most of the side mounts i saw sold separately were in the $125+ range per seat
i liked what i saw and the dimensions fit so i offered them $175 per seat and they immediately accepted.
when they came in i was happy with the quality.
i took some measurements and drew up a design in CAD for the mounting rails. i kept them low as possible as id read helmet/roof room was an issue.
picked up some 2" X 1/8" steel and after two evenings had the rails made.
kept the rails super low. the rail and bolt head actually touch the carpet. mounted with grade 8s.
painted
mounted
i was out of time and money before the next track weekend, so didnt go to harness's yet. picked up these seatbelt extenders to use as buckles to bolt to the cars floor.
unfortunatly when i tried to bend the hardened steel male buckle it snapped when i went past 35-40 degrees. so i welded them up at about 50-55 degrees to clear the seat rails. bolted them to the floor and worked perfect!
in! after these pics i unbolted the shoulder harness and ran it threw the upper harness hole. i didnt like not feeling the strap on my shoulder.
best news is i got no dash lights or chimes with the stock buckles and electrical connections no longer existing. i was worried about that. i do have an airbag light from the missing/unpluged seat airbags.
also i have a good 1-2" of helmet clearance with the roof.
Weights:
Stock driver seat with air bag, motor, and rails : 49lbs
stock passenger seat with airbag and rails : 39 lbs
Invictus seat with homemade rails : 22 lbs total weight savings : 44 lbs
after these pics, i ran the outer lap belt threw the hole for obvious reasons, later i also routed the upper belt threw the back hole. i didnt like not feeling the belt on my shoulder. also holds the seat belt where you can always reach it. (not flop behind the seat)
buckle belt pic
now most will cry against this, but its worked flawless for me on track until i can get a harness/bar.
only down side to the seat belt extensions is they are floopy, not stiff. so when i get in i have to go head first and hold the buckle up as i get in. otherwise once your sat down, you have to raise your cheek and try to fish it up blindly. i bolted the extenders you see above directly to the floor bolt that the rails mount too. (hense the belt and welded buckles, whats where i run the factory floor bolt threw) the factory buckle is completely gone.
Last edited by STANG KILLA SS; 12-04-2017 at 04:30 PM.
The old saying is so true. People will pay for what they want but they won't pay for what they need. Using 3 point belts with a race seat is dangerous unless you are using some sort of hybrid seat like the Carravagio seat which is cut to allow use of stock belts. Vice versa is also true....5 or 6 point belts with stock seats are even more dangerous. I've witnessed a broken pelvis and an ejection due to people trying to use makeshift methods.
Bottom line....it's either stock seat and 3 point or race seat with harness bar and 5-6 point harness. The latter will provide safety, comfort, less fatigue and better lap times. Don't **** around. Do it right or don't do it.
The old saying is so true. People will pay for what they want but they won't pay for what they need. Using 3 point belts with a race seat is dangerous unless you are using some sort of hybrid seat like the Carravagio seat which is cut to allow use of stock belts. Vice versa is also true....5 or 6 point belts with stock seats are even more dangerous. I've witnessed a broken pelvis and an ejection due to people trying to use makeshift methods.
Bottom line....it's either stock seat and 3 point or race seat with harness bar and 5-6 point harness. The latter will provide safety, comfort, less fatigue and better lap times. Don't **** around. Do it right or don't do it.
Hey thanks for the insight, can you talk in more detail about the carravagio seat's "cut"?
Searching that name shows a lot of installs of their fixed back model with the factory seat belt.
Hey thanks for the insight, can you talk in more detail about the carravagio seat's "cut"?
Searching that name shows a lot of installs of their fixed back model with the factory seat belt.
Do they even offer an FIA certification?
Carravagio seats are intended to be used with stock lap belts. If you look at the pictures posted above, you will see that the sides of the seat are cut low to allow the natural flow of the belts to remain over the body in the intended location as opposed to trying to "re-route" them through openings.
Carravagio seats aren't FIA rated. They are intended for street or HPDE use, not racing.
I'm not talking about "racing" with this layout either. This is strictly for autocross and HPDE.
I agree any type of actual racing environment requires specific safety precautions such as halo seats/harnesses/rollover protection
I was just addressing the question about FIA certification. The real issue here is the use of a stock 3 point belt. For a dual purpose vehicle which wants to retain a 3 point belt, you need something like the Carrivaggio which is made for the application.
I don't know anything about the Sparco Roadster 2. Is it intended to be used with stock 3 point belts?
I'm not a salesman for Carravaggio- I've just owned a set and know that they are cut low where the seat belt passes the hip so that the stock belts work as they are intended. The bottom line is what someone already said- a stock seat and belt setup are designed as a systems. Just because you've re-engineered something to fit, doesn't mean it's going to work and in some cases could possible have the opposite effect by causing harm.
I was just asking for a source so I could see how they designed it to work together.
I don't think anyone makes a bottom-mount only seat that isn't designed for 3-point belts. The Caravaggios, Corbeau A4 and Evolution X, and the seats that are based on the Evolution, like the Braum Elite models and whatever Cipher's version is - they're all bottom-mount street-oriented seats that have shoulder harness loops and cut-away sides. The Marrad/Arizen ST3 is a non-FIA bucket that is designed to work with a 3-point belt, but it's the only one I can think of.
I just installed the Braum Elite in my C5Z, and it works fine with 3 point belts. If you wanted to, you could run with a Schroth ASM 4-point or a 6-point run under your legs, but remember that this sort of seat isn't an FIA-rated seat.
I'll report back after the next time I go to Sebring (early January), and let post about how it works with the 3-point belt. I've got the build of an open-wheel driver (5'6" 150lb), so I even with the lap belt locked, I was sliding all over the stock seat (which had the outside bolster flattened with age/wear), particularly my upper body. The Braum seat has noticeable shoulder bolstering, and I fit pretty deep into the seat. Overall, it's not really that close to a true racing seat, but it's a lot better than the stock seat.
Since I only use the car for HPDE, and don't plan on installing a cage any time soon, I went with a more street-oriented option. The seat choice can really lead you down the slippery slope to a full-blown barely-streetable track car, especially in the newer cars with airbags in the seats. Think about what you want to use the car for, and go from there.
We will be working on another version with an even larger lap belt hole that will allow the C5 retractor to fit thru. At present, I am unaware of any seat that can fit a C5 belt (because of it having retractors at both ends), so we will design one.
Really interested to see how this goes. I'm a bit sketchy on taking apart the retractor. I want to be 100% sure I put it back together just right so its safe, obviously. But I really want to do this!
Interesting issue our Time-Attack group is having. Presently we insist on having roll over protection to allow the use of a harness which also means you need roll over protection to use a head and neck restraint like a HANS system. . .
Not necessarily, Simpson hybrid has a 3-point seat belt compatible Hans, I purchased one for last season.
12-02-2017, 04:44 PM
