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Would like some help chosing a BBK - C5 Track Only Car for DE

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Would like some help chosing a BBK - C5 Track Only Car for DE

 
Old 12-01-2017, 04:13 PM
  #1  
Dan H.
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Default Would like some help chosing a BBK - C5 Track Only Car for DE

Hello all,
I'm doing the analysis on the BBK's out there. These seem to be the commonly used kits. I've decided I'm doing this upgrade this winter, its just a matter of choosing the right kit.

My car is a DE only C5 Z06. Stock power, front cooling ducts, and 18" Square wheel setup. I would like the reliability of a BBK. I am also upgrading this winter to SKF X tracker bearings. I am not blistering fast, I'm a solo intermediate driver in most groups. I want to apply the brakes and have a consistent and reliable pedal. I lost confidence at VIR on my last trip. I had boiled fluid, had an inconsistent pedal, and never knew what level of braking I would have available at each brake zone.

I'm want to consider consumables like pads and pad shape as well as rotor ring replacement. I want to consider kit cost as well. I also like the idea of improving towards Oli's SpecCorvette series thinking I may want to do some wheel to wheel or time trials in the future.

I know AP kits are massively popular for our cars. I can't help but notice the price difference for the Wilwood kit (also the Spec Corvette kit I think). Is there any reason to avoid the Wilwood kit? I'm a firm believer in you get what you pay for. But this is a big investment for a guy like me, so I want to make sure I do my homework.

Is there anything I'm missing that I should be considering in my shopping? Advice and perspective is appreciated.

Thank you
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Old 12-01-2017, 04:39 PM
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I have an 06Z and used to spend all sorts of time and money screwing with my brakes. Then I installed the Wilwood 355mm caliper kit and it was probably the best money I spent. Now the pads last twice as long, cost about 50 percent less to replace, and saves me from having to bleed every track day. I splurged for the thermlock pistons which are a couple hundred more, but never have any issues with boiling fluid like I used to have.

For me, the cost difference was just too much for the other brands. They may or may not perform better, but if youíre an intermediate driver the Wilwood should suit you fine. I think you would need to be really really fast for the Wilwoods to hold you back.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:01 PM
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Bill Dearborn
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Are you looking at just doing the front or are you going to do both ends of the car? If you are doing just the front take a look at the LG G Stop kit which uses the Wilwood Wide SL6 caliper along with an LG caliper bracket and stock size rotors to provide a pretty cost effective robust kit. The pads are .8 inches thick and I used to get up to 10 track days out of a set of 7420 H pads. The pads would taper so they had to be flipped from side to side to lengthen life time but once I had that system on the car I was happy. No more long pedal caused by pads tapering in the stock calipers. Just firm reliable stopping time and again. I used NAPA Ultra Premium rotors that would last 2 to 3 days and that was the only draw back of the system. I had it on the car for 5 seasons.

The Wilwood Aero6 and Aero4 calipers will work well as well. I had their precursors W6A and W4A on my C6Z in front and rear and had reliable braking using them with Wilwood 2 piece slotted rotors. The Wilwood calipers come with stainless steel pistons and you can add their ThermLock piston to get better fluid heat control in the calipers. Some of their racing calipers come standard with the upgraded pistons, I notice the one you selected doesn't have them. I never had them but I never ran into a boiled brake fluid issue with any of my Wilwood calipers. The down side of the Wilwood Aero calipers is you have to remove the caliper to change brake pads while the W6A and W4A didn't require that.

The only issue I had with the Wilwoods was with the rear brake kit. The rotor hat had a .67 offset which put the inside surface very close to the rear tie rod end. I could barely get a screwdriver blade between the two pieces. I never had a problem with the tie rod end but I had to be careful on the C6Z because the ends are greaseable and the grease could get on the rotor. Some of the rear kits that Wilwood shows have drilled/slotted rotors but you can change the order to get the better 72 vane slotted rotor.

The StopTech's are nice but I don't know if they are that much nicer than the Wilwoods. Same goes for the AP Racing kits (especially the Pro 5000 caliper which is a work of art).

I have the Essex AP racing kit on my C7 Z06/Z07 since is the only kit really engineered to replace the ceramic brake system. The ceramic brakes were great but the replacement cost for rotors and pads drove me to the AP kits and I will break even on my next set of rotors. It cost me less to purchase the rear AP kit than the stock rotors and pads.

Before deciding on what to purchase talk to Todd at TCE (forum sponsor) for his prices on Wilwood equipment. Also talk to Jeff or Daniel at Essex. All 3 are good guys and will work with you to give you the best deal on their products.

One thing I learned while using the Wilwood calipers is that as the brake pad wears it is a good idea to add a spacer between the piston and the brake pad. This keeps the uncovered pistons inside the cylinders so there is less chance of damaging the seals due to dirt or the piston cockiing in the cylinder. I still do that with my Essex AP kit on the C7. The spacers are just used backing plates with the brake compound ground off.

Bill
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:19 PM
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CHJ In Virginia
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I'll put in a second vote for the Wilwood system. I used it on my 03 Z06 for 6 years and was very happy with the performance. Their "H" series pads offer great consistent stopping power without fade and are very reasonably priced compared to most other options. I would use the DBA 5000 two piece rotors - they lasted longer than anything else I tried. Cooling ducts are a MUST HAVE no matter what option you choose.
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Old 12-02-2017, 12:19 AM
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Very happy with my AP Racing BBK from Essex. Getting good pad life with no tapering.
I Just did the front BBK and running OEM rears with XP8 single pads and also getting very good life and no taper (the oem padlets would last only two or three days). Because the rears are a pain to swap out (one piece not the padlets so you have to remove the caliper) I leave them in full time and yes, they do make some noise. The fronts I swap out the racing compound for street compound when not needed (Ferodo ds1.11). It literally takes only a couple minutes max to swap the pads, I do it when I swap the street tires for the R comps.
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Old 12-02-2017, 12:43 AM
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I have been running AP/Essex BBK for 3 years now on my dedicated C6 ZO6 based track car. Got 372mm diameter on the front with the Pro 5000 calipers and 340mm diameter on the back with CP5040 calipers. Works great. Moved up from 355 to 372's this year on the front. Using Castrol SRF brake fluid. Still dialing in the pad compound. The more aggressive the pad the shorter the life on the rotors, but the pads are easy to change at the track without removing the calipers.
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Old 12-02-2017, 01:56 AM
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I think the new AP stuff is the best. But I had a budget I had to stay within as it was a big purchase for me also. I went with the Stoptech 4 wheel kit ST60 front with ST40 rear with 355mm rotors. What I paid for an entire 4 wheel Stoptech kit could have only got me just an AP front kit.
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Old 12-02-2017, 08:29 AM
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Dan H.
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Originally Posted by Bill Dearborn
Are you looking at just doing the front or are you going to do both ends of the car? If you are doing just the front take a look at the LG G Stop kit which uses the Wilwood Wide SL6 caliper along with an LG caliper bracket and stock size rotors to provide a pretty cost effective robust kit. The pads are .8 inches thick and I used to get up to 10 track days out of a set of 7420 H pads. The pads would taper so they had to be flipped from side to side to lengthen life time but once I had that system on the car I was happy. No more long pedal caused by pads tapering in the stock calipers. Just firm reliable stopping time and again. I used NAPA Ultra Premium rotors that would last 2 to 3 days and that was the only draw back of the system. I had it on the car for 5 seasons.

The Wilwood Aero6 and Aero4 calipers will work well as well. I had their precursors W6A and W4A on my C6Z in front and rear and had reliable braking using them with Wilwood 2 piece slotted rotors. The Wilwood calipers come with stainless steel pistons and you can add their ThermLock piston to get better fluid heat control in the calipers. Some of their racing calipers come standard with the upgraded pistons, I notice the one you selected doesn't have them. I never had them but I never ran into a boiled brake fluid issue with any of my Wilwood calipers. The down side of the Wilwood Aero calipers is you have to remove the caliper to change brake pads while the W6A and W4A didn't require that.

The only issue I had with the Wilwoods was with the rear brake kit. The rotor hat had a .67 offset which put the inside surface very close to the rear tie rod end. I could barely get a screwdriver blade between the two pieces. I never had a problem with the tie rod end but I had to be careful on the C6Z because the ends are greaseable and the grease could get on the rotor. Some of the rear kits that Wilwood shows have drilled/slotted rotors but you can change the order to get the better 72 vane slotted rotor.

The StopTech's are nice but I don't know if they are that much nicer than the Wilwoods. Same goes for the AP Racing kits (especially the Pro 5000 caliper which is a work of art).

I have the Essex AP racing kit on my C7 Z06/Z07 since is the only kit really engineered to replace the ceramic brake system. The ceramic brakes were great but the replacement cost for rotors and pads drove me to the AP kits and I will break even on my next set of rotors. It cost me less to purchase the rear AP kit than the stock rotors and pads.

Before deciding on what to purchase talk to Todd at TCE (forum sponsor) for his prices on Wilwood equipment. Also talk to Jeff or Daniel at Essex. All 3 are good guys and will work with you to give you the best deal on their products.

One thing I learned while using the Wilwood calipers is that as the brake pad wears it is a good idea to add a spacer between the piston and the brake pad. This keeps the uncovered pistons inside the cylinders so there is less chance of damaging the seals due to dirt or the piston cockiing in the cylinder. I still do that with my Essex AP kit on the C7. The spacers are just used backing plates with the brake compound ground off.

Bill
Good clarification question, I will only be replacing the front brakes, I will continue to use the stock rear setup.

Thanks Bill for the detail. Your right there are standard pistons and thermolock pistons. The thermolock option pushes the kit price up significantly to be the same as the AP and Stoptech prices. This sounds necessary if IŹ don't want to be bleeding out boiled fluid between sessions.

Last edited by Dan H.; 12-02-2017 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 12-02-2017, 10:21 AM
  #9  
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Thank you for the advice and perspective guys. This is very helpful. I'm reading there is still some taper and shimming that needs to be done with the Wilwood kit. AP kit sounds as close to set it and forget it as it gets. I hadn't thought about the Wilwood kit using rubber seals where the AP I don't believe has any seals to melt.
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Old 12-02-2017, 11:07 AM
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Another vote for TCE Todd. I run the SL6s on the front with HH pads and stock rear setup with HH pads. I've had the kit for years. Car just did a 60 minute short enduro with zero problems. I'll likely upgrade the rears at some point just because bleeding the rears is a pain compared to the wilwoods.
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Old 12-02-2017, 11:13 AM
  #11  
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I have Stoptech ST60/ST40 BBK on my 04 Z06 street car. I also use this car for occasional track days and for instruction. I have had zero problems with the Stoptech hardware, and do recommend it. However, the AP 5000 kit was not out when I got my BBK 12 years ago, so today I would probably pick the AP kit over the Stoptech kit simply because of price parity.
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Old 12-02-2017, 12:33 PM
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Dan,

I never used the stock brakes on the C6Z. I went straight to the AP endurance kit. Great decision I have never regretted for a moment.

I use the pads Jeff recommended, the Ferodo DS 111 I think they are, and they last awhile as do the rotor rings. Pad changes are simple. Didn't have to do anything special for cooling other than the spindle duct kit.

I am far from the quickest guy in the car for the power it makes but it's still getting around at current T1 lap times in a car that weighs 3300 lbs up to 3500 lbs if I have a passenger. At this pace I have found the brakes to work well for the 20-25 minute sessions all weekend long.

I think for your needs you can't go wrong with an AP setup. They get my vote.

That said I think all of the suggestions given are good ones and you won't go wrong no matter which you choose.

Steve
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Old 12-03-2017, 12:01 PM
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Have you considered your wheel clearance? I didn't see that mentioned.

It has to be worth it to simply not worry that much about the brakes. I have a Chump E30 and some very routine maintenance and the car stops for 24 hours on 1 set of pads.

Add a 380mm ST60 kit for $2500 to the list. I have 1 sitting around......
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:16 PM
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I quickly tired of the vague pedal, pad taper and cracked rotors with the stock C5 brakes. After research similar to what you are doing now, I went with the Wilwood Aero6 14.25" front BBK from TCE, which clears OE C5Z 18" wheels used in my square setup.

The improvement was immediate and this kit addressed all my issues with the OEM brake package. Confident braking for 30-40 min sessions, really limited only by the traction and endurance of the chosen tire. Consumable costs are way down too. Between session down time swapping out hot, cracked, rotors is a thing of the past.

To date with 1322 track miles, one event ago I replaced the original Wilwood H pads that came with the kit, so the pads went about 1250 track miles and really have enough left to keep as spares. The cost for the new pads was about 30 bucks more than I was paying for the Raybestos ST-43's for the OE front brakes. The original Wilwood GT72 slotted rotors are now starting to rumble when cold so it won't be long before I replace those as well. While I'm not looking forward to dropping $500 on a pair of rotors, when I consider the phenomenal braking my car is capable of now and the amount of pads and rotors I would have consumed during the last 1300 track miles, it's really an easy decision.

As to comments about the Wilwood BBK being inferior to the others, I disagree. I've had zero issues with the hard parts and when the caliper is properly shimmed over the rotor, the pads do not wear tapered and wear more or less even. The Aero6 DOES NOT use piston boots, not sure where that came front.

Also big shout out to Todd of TCE> easily one of the most knowledgeable and accommodating vendors on the CF

Last edited by DunlevysZ; 12-03-2017 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:04 PM
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Default AP Racing BBK

I have been using the AP Racing BBK on my C5 Z06 track dedicated DE only car for several years now and have the 350mm (the largest rotors available at the time of purchase of BBK). Now they have a larger one (372mm I believe). I also have a square setup with my tires. I would say get the best kit you can afford. I think in order of performance the top 5 kits are

1) AP Racing 372 mm rotors
2) AP Racing 350 mm rotors
3) Brembo
4) Stoptech
.
.
.
5) DISTANT 5th place in my opinion = Willwood

I have ridden in Corvette track cars with each of these kits or at least followed an instructor level driver with these kits (in the case of Willwood) and there is NO DOUBT AP Racing is superior in my opinion. You can brake later than everyone and STILL make the turn with ZERO fade,....EVER,.... using Castrol SRF brake fluid. I catch most everyone in the braking zones except for well driven Porsche Cup Cars but they have aero downforce and I dont. I keep up with them but do not catch or lose them in braking.

I am a HUGE fan of the PFC 01 pads in all 4 corners but they are very aggressive and wear faster than the Ferodo DSUNO or DS 1.11 pads. They wear my rotors faster too BUT I stop significantly faster than when using the DSUNO pads.

The best part about the AP Racing kit is that they will be the last kit you will likely ever need, and I consider the brakes more safety related than just a mod to help you around a track. Do not discount the fact that you are an Intermediate driver. I think the time it takes you to get to be an advanced/instructor level driver will likely NOT be as long as it took you to get to Intermediate. So as you get faster you will need better brakes. Lastly, do not forget that as you drive faster and faster your ability to avert a bad situation in front of you is VITAL. I have had several cars I am gaining on overdrive lose control and slide across the track in front of me. My brakes gave me the ability to avoid collision even on a high speed turn. Confidence in my brakes is PRICELESS to me.

My 0.02
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Old 12-03-2017, 06:31 PM
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AP Endurance
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:37 PM
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It’s neen many years since I added the BBK to my C6. I went with the ST60 front / ST40 rear set up and I liked it a lot. I considered the AP brakes, but I met someone at the track that had them and they clanked like crazy because they were a full floating design. That wasn’t acceptable for my dual purpose needs. This was five years ago so the APs May have a non floating option. One thing you should know about the stop techs is that they aren’t a simple bolt in installation...you need to grind the bottom a arms to clear the rotors. It isn’t hard to do (if you have a grinder) but it does take a while (this is not dermal tool trimming). I don’t know if the other kits require trimming or not.
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Charley Hoyt View Post
Itís neen many years since I added the BBK to my C6. I went with the ST60 front / ST40 rear set up and I liked it a lot. I considered the AP brakes, but I met someone at the track that had them and they clanked like crazy because they were a full floating design. That wasnít acceptable for my dual purpose needs. This was five years ago so the APs May have a non floating option. One thing you should know about the stop techs is that they arenít a simple bolt in installation...you need to grind the bottom a arms to clear the rotors. It isnít hard to do (if you have a grinder) but it does take a while (this is not dermal tool trimming). I donít know if the other kits require trimming or not.
Mine do NOT clank. They dont squeal either. They just work,...EVERYTIME.
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by C5Z06CE View Post
Mine do NOT clank. They dont squeal either. They just work,...EVERYTIME.
Thatís great
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:42 AM
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Hi Guys,
I'll chime in with some comments. I constantly have customers asking us to compare our Essex Designed AP Racing Competition Kits to StopTech, Brembo, etc. I'll preface my comments below by reminding everyone that I was the Sales Mgr. at StopTech from '02-'07. I was there during the development of much of their current product line, including the development of their Corvette BBK's. I ran a ST-60/ST-40 kit on my personal '03 Z06 for a couple of years. When I came to Essex/AP Racing, I was intimately familiar with that hardware, and knew exactly what had to be done to design and build a better brake kit. We looked at every single detail in the kits on the market and made sure that what we put together was superior.

I recently had a customer ask me to compare the StopTech Trophy Kit to our Pro5000R Radi-CAL Competition Kits. Here's what I had to say:

"The Ďraceí variant of the ST Trophy kit adds AKB springs, and they flip the washers on the disc hats to allow more float. Other than that, their Sport and Race variants are the same. The Trophy Kits are based around the original ST-60 and ST-40 road calipers. The ST-60 is so heavy because it was originally designed to work on a huge range of applications, including trucks (I was at StopTech during the ST-60 development, and had input on the design). More material was needed in the calipers because they sometimes run large piston bores, as in truck applications. For the Trophy kits, they took the same caliper and simply carved away a bit more material around the piston bores to try and lighten them a bit, and kept them anodized rather than painting them. At their core, they remain a versatile street caliper that has been tweaked for track use.

The AP Racing Pro5000R Radi-CAL is a clean sheet racing design. They were optimized for that purpose, not designed to work on trucks, etc. They are far lighter, and the Radi-CAL design language allows them to be far stiffer.

I actually ran the StopTech ST-60 system on my C5 Z06 while I worked at the company (and their ST-40 system on my 350Z). They are good systems with high quality parts, and we led the way at the time (2003-2008). That said, our Radi-CAL Competition Kits are in a completely different league and offer a laundry list of benefits that nobody else offers at any price (see below). The Radi-CAL is stiffer, lighter, cools faster, and is superior in every way possible.

When specíing our Essex Designed Competition systems we tried to look at every piece of the StopTech and Brembo systems, and produce something that eclipsed them in performance, all while keeping the costs down. If you look at feedback from our customers, we have succeeded...more technology, higher specification, lower running costs, etc.

Calipers

Design
The AP Radi-CAL is the most cutting edge caliper design on the market at all levels. They are far stiffer than conventional calipers, and you can learn more about them here:
https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog...-radical-story
The ST-60 is a legacy/conventional design that doesnít have near the stiffness or optimization.

Anti-knockback springs
AP Racing has them, ST doesn't. People severely underestimate how valuable these springs are. After going through S turns, you'll have a much lower pucker factor in the next brake zone with the springs installed.

Piston type
StopTech= cast aluminum
AP= machined stainless steel, ventilated, domed back
Stainless is far superior at keeping heat out of your brake fluid, the vents add substantial cooling, and the domed back adds stiffness for superior pedal feel.

Weight
AP Racing CP9660 weighs 6.1 lbs.without pads...StopTech ST-60 is about 8 lbs.

Dust Boots
StopTech uses dust boots. AP Racing Competition calipers have none. If you've ever run dust boots on the track, you'll find that they burn up and cause a big mess almost instantly. Their only value is if you're driving on winter or debris/dirty roads. As soon as they go on track they essentially lose all value.

Seals
Both calipers have quality, high temp seals.

Hydraulic ports and bleed screws
The Radi-CAL has internal fluid ports, which eliminates the external crossover tube. That adds protection from damage, and lowers the number of components that can fail on the caliper. StopTech uses an external crossover tube, which can be damaged by debris, when swapping wheels, etc. Also, the Radi-CAL has no bleed screws on the outside half, making them far less prone to damage when removing or putting on wheels.

High quality forged aluminum body
The caliper bodies on both are high quality forged aluminum parts.

Bridge
The Radi-CAL only needs two bolts to remove the bridge. The ST-60 uses four bolts, and the long bridge tends to get more and more difficult to remove and install over time as the caliper goes through heat cycles and ages. The Radi-CAL doesnít need a big, removable bridge as a crutch for increased stiffness, since it is incredibly stiff even without the bridge installed.

Pad choice/cost/size
The CP9660 Radi-CAL and ST-60 both use the same basic AP Racing pad shape thatís been around forever. The radial depth in our calipers is a little bit larger, giving a tiny bit more pad volume.

Stainless Steel hardware
Both calipers have good stainless steel hardware.

Footprint/size
In addition to weighing much less, the CP9660 Radi-CAL has a smaller footprint and offers superior wheel fitment, particularly since there are no outside bleed screws to contact the wheel barrel or spokes.

Finish
Both use an anodized finish, which holds up on track much better than paint or powder coat.

Rebuild Service
Essex offers a lifetime professional reconditioning service. For a $150/caliper you can send your calipers to Essex and have them rebuilt by the same techs who service NASCAR and ALMS teams. StopTech can rebuild, but I'm not sure how formalized their procedures, policies, and prices are at this time.

Discs

Quality and Price
Both companies offer high quality discs for the kits in question, at almost identical prices. All else held equal, the discs from both manufacturers are quality castings that are crack resistant and will last a long time under heavy track use. The AP discs do have a number of features that give them significant advantages however:

Vane quantity
We use 70-84 vanes in our racing discs, whereas StopTech uses 48. The higher vane count in the AP discs increases stability and airflow. Our discs run cooler, and tend to last longer under heavy track use (which lowers long-term running costs on both pads and discs). The greater number of vanes behind the disc face make the face more stable, so they donít have as much opportunity for uneven pad deposits and judder as a 48 vane disc.

Slot pattern
The patented AP Racing J Hook pattern allows for even heat distribution across the disc face. That means pads stick to the discs more evenly, reducing the propensity for judder/uneven deposits. StopTechís 7 slot patter leaves cool spots between the slots, and doesnít distribute the heat as evenly.

Disc hats
Both have a quality design and are made from aircraft grade aluminum. Both are optimized for weight and airflow.

Weight
Our discs in the same sizes tend to be 1-2 lbs. lighter than the StopTech discs of comparable size.

Wheel Fitment
As described in the caliper section above, wheel fitment is superior with the AP system as a whole.

Brake Lines
Both systems came with a high quality set of brake lines. The Spiegler lines in our kit have full stainless steel fittings, tighter braiding, and are a step above the StopTech lines.

In summary, the StopTech Trophy system is a slightly polished version of the kits that were designed in the very early 2000ís. They use traditional design techniques, with street-oriented components (aluminum pistons, lower vane count discs, etc.). You wonít find them on the current grids at the top tier of racing. Our Radi-CAL Competition Kits are based on the latest technology however, and have become the gold standard in all types of professional racing. They have won in F1, IMSA/Le Mans, NASCAR cup, DTM, Aussie V8, Super GT, etc. They are in a completely different league. Because they are the most advanced technology available, they also hold their value better than any other kit on the market. They are therefore a far superior investment if you ever plan to part your car out and sell it in a few years (which most of our customers do)."


Pretty much everything above holds true when you compare our Essex/AP Racing Competition Kits to Brembo, Wilwood, etc. As others have noted above, our systems are a "Do it once, do it right" solution. You'll never have to worry about your brakes letting you down at the track ever again. You'll be able to reel off consistent laps, and the brakes will feel the same on the last lap of the last session as they did on the first lap of the first session.

If you're on any type of budget (which most of us are), I'd recommend getting the best front brake system you can afford. The rears are far less troublesome on these cars than the fronts. The biggest gains/rewards come from eliminating front brake issues. Since our systems are properly balanced, you can always add rears later if budget allows (or if you really want to drop 20 lbs. of unsprung weight!).

Also, Essex continues to be strong supporters of this forum and the Corvette community, and I believe our customer service is the best in the business. If you've ever run into any problems or needed technical support, you probably understand how important that is.

Again, I can't really say that there is anything wrong with the other options on the market, but they are dated technology in terms of their design, materials, and even aesthetics. They had their time, but brake technology has progressed considerably over the past decade. At one point I posted the pic below in the C7Z06 section of the forum. It shows one of our current kits lined up next to the kits that win Le Mans on the Pratt & Miller cars year-after-year. We're offering our aftermarket customers technology that isn't available elsewhere at any price. The fact that our prices are very similar to what our competitors charge makes our kits a tremendous value IMO.

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