Soloontario

Going wheel to wheel racing requires the best of safety devices, roll cage, containment seat, fire suit, fire suppression system and a head and neck restraint which requires a fixed harness.

OTOH, most of us don't go "whole hog" for HPDE. I have seen lots of in car videos of guys just wearing short sleeves in cars that don't appear to be caged.

The group I run with insists that before you can use a 5 or more point harness, you have to have at least a roll bar. The idea is that if you use a harness and roll the car without extra roll over protection, you will be trapped in your seat if the A pillar collapses leading to severe neck and head injuries. Meanwhile if you can't have a 5+ point harness you effectively can't use a head and neck restraint meaning that drivers without roll bars are prohibited from using a HANS (or similar) and have to rely on 3 point belts. I would have thought a high speed frontal impact or multiple impacts would be a lot more likely than a roll over and that of the 2 devices, a HANS is more likely to help me than a roll bar.

So what do you think?

seamus2154

Well they are right IF that happens. But if you hit something and don't roll I would want a Hans. If you ever saw a video with no Hans front impact at just 30 mph it is shocking how your head snaps with the weight of the helmet. Fact is you should have it all. Most of us don't and dont want our street car as a track only car. I think impacts are more likely than rollovers and I have a Hans and harness bar with belts. But as I said they are right if you roll. You could beat this to death as many have, but the Simpson Hybrid with your 3 point stock belts and airbags are a great safer alternative for an occasional HPDE.
I have been at the track for years now and couldn't imagine not having a neck restraint, Simpson or Hans.
Side note: many do not consider that once you put in a roll cage your car it is a track only helmet only car. Your helmet is designed to hit the roll bar. I have seen people killed in normal street accidents by their head hitting the roll cage. So if you arent going to drive your street car with a helmet on ALL the time don't put a roll cage in it. Its a slippery slope, the hybrid is a good choice because any real racer can explain that your really need it all, not some of it to be safe. So we take some precautions and mitgate the risk by trying to be safe, but we are really fooling ourselves so we can get on the track. Have fun, know the REAL risk, be safe, use your head, and go as fast in that turn as your willing to crash....

fatbillybob

Why not have both? Pioneers like DAS do this for porsche and it takes just a little thought for a custom cage builder to design a completely non-invasive bolt-in or minimally invasive bolt-in to full weld-in cage. When you consider the cost for seats, hans, tires, entry fees a bolt-in rollover hoop just isn't that much money, and when custom designed, can put the hans shoulders exactly where they need to be. We just don't have those old school stretchy nylon harnesses anymore and with today's modern low stretch belts no polyester harness should be used without a head neck restraint IMO.

Bill Dearborn

The poly belts still stretch and permit a fair amount of body movement. That is one way they reduce injuries. Here are a couple of videos showing crash tests of Schroth Poly belts watch how far the dummy moves:



Here is what a recognized safety expert says about 4 point belts and roll overs.


Joe Marko's HMS Motorsports provides restraints to most of the NASCAR Cup Teams and he is heavily involved with NASCAR's safety engineering group. If you ever attend one of his safety presentations at an HPDE you will find it is one of the best hours you ever spend on to make yourself as safe as possible.

Mordeth

If I had to choose between the two, I would choose the HANS.

In any event, there is a simple answer to your dilemma. Purchase a HANS Hybrid 3 point compatible device. I have one and it works great. Can be used with a Harness, or simply with 3 point OEM seat belts.

seamus2154

On a side note to my reply, I was recently at VIR and was talking with a shop there who actually said many guys are switching to the Simpson hybrid for comfort and ease of getting in the car with it. Sounds like a winner for a 3 point or 4 point. Without the roll bar I would like to have the airbags also, and would switch to a Simpson, but unfortunately the C6Z seat is so bad that I find a race seat a must which loses the airbag.

C6_Racer_X

Honestly, a "hybrid HANS" might work.

I'd have a very strong preference for a real, original "HANS" device, and that pretty much requires 5 point harness, which pretty much requires the roll bar or cage. So while the HANS device would be a good first choice, getting what's required to use a full HANS device would be a prerequisite IMO.

Nowanker

Wrestling with this dilemma now. Took the Z to Laguna with the stock seat & belt. Felt like there was NOTHING holding me inside the car. Made me laugh out loud in the corkscrew.
Going with a race seat, 5 or 6 point belts, harness bar and my HANS. Looking at pix of a bunch of badly crashed C6s, seems like the roof structure/hoop is pretty damn solid...
Less than optimum, but it is still 99% street car.

Andrie

Like, everything else in life, it's all about compromise and prioritizing. I choose hans everytime, due to the fact, rollovers is much rarer than just regular impact. We can't really prepare for every scenario or we are in the wrong sport. One of my crew guy hit a wall in relatively slow speed and his neck hurts for weeks. He said it still affect him even now, a year later. Most cars also designed to have some kind of rollover protection, assuming the passenger is strapped and stay on the seat. So harness will actually help in this situation. Again, that's just my opinion.

mattastick

If both a Simpson Hybrid and a Hans device carry the same certifications from SFI, etc. why does the brand matter? I would think the Hybrid would have a much higher acceptance, but here there are a lot of people that seem to be spending money on only a Hans, not a device that is arguably better (strapping your head to your torso) rather than relying on the belts to hold the 2 together. What am I missing?

STANG KILLA SS

not crashing

Soloontario

So why is a roll bar or cage required other than the fact that " we have always done it that way". Given some of the points in the last video in post #4, I think it is time to question the practice. I would also like to find what sort of data is use to support this practice.

In the past, using a harness without a head and neck restraint could clearly increase the risk of basal skull and neck fractures such as Dale Earnhart. OTOH, I would think the harness itself helps prevent a number of other injuries that would occur bouncing around inside a car with only the OEM 3 points holding (or not holding) you in place. The hybrid HANS helps the head and neck injuries but nothing else. Most people seem to agree that frontal impacts are a lot more likely than roll overs and it seems to me that a 5+ point harness and head and neck restraint are likely my best "next step" for safety.

Bill Dearborn

Forget the 5 point. If you want a sub strap go with the 6 point.

You can get the stock 3 point system to hold you in the seat if you use cinch mode. First, you have to remember the purpose of the belt system is to hold you in the seat while the purpose of the seat is to hold you in the car. The way I use cinch mode is to first inflate the seat back side bolsters to their max, run the seat all the way to the rear, pull the shoulder belt all the way out until it hits a hard stop, fasten the belt while it is out and then use your hands to guide the lap belt portion to the proper place across your lap and to feed belt slack into the retractor. After doing that grab the shoulder belt where it comes through the slider at the inside belt latch and diagonally pull it as tight as you can get it so the lap belt gets tighter. Then while clamping a hand around the slider so the lap belt doesn't get loose again push all of the slack into the retractor. If I am taking a passenger for a ride while using the stock belts I will stand outside the car on the passenger side and pull the shoulder belt tight by leaning backward. That really gets the lap belt tight. Once belt is tight, use seat control to move seat forward until tighter than hell. Feeling some pain is a good thing. Now the stock GT or Comp Seat will hold you in the car almost as well as if you were using a 4 point or 6 point harness.

No matter how many points they have the belts have to be placed properly across your lap and be very tight, tight, tight, tight. Lose the beer belly so you can get it even tighter.

Bill

Mark@AMT Motorsport

If I could have only one it would be a HANS.

Also, what track group do you run with that actually enforces the complete "safety system" rule? Do they actually turn people away who show up with a seat, harness, HANS and no roll bar? Or are they just suggesting that you have a complete safety system? Seems like you'd lose a whole bunch of customers real fast.

Cap'n Pete

100% agreed. Sure, maybe it's anecdotal, but I remember hearing of and seeing the pics of a rolled C6 Z06 (on track), with the windshield (A-pillars) flattened down pretty good, but the factory hoop stood up exceptionally well, and the driver and passenger both walked away with no significant injuries.

The "naked" pictures of the Corvette skeleton is pretty impressive, IMO. The factory hoop clearly serves the purpose of a (very effective) roll bar.

Based on that, I'd be far more inclined to prioritize a HANS vs. a roll bar (esp. if it was one vs. the other).

Again, you've gotta weigh the probabilities vs. consequence, and consider the fact that the car (as built) actually offers some real rollover protection.

If it were only so easy .......

crimlwC6

I have both an adjustable hans and the hybrid rage (I think before Simpson bought it). I find the hybrid more comfortable to take on and off and in the car and more versatile if I'm instructing. It isn't a huge difference but if I could pick one it would be the hybrid.
I would not ride in a car at the track without one.

Nowanker

[QUOTE=Cap'n Pete;1596109955]
100% agreed. Sure, maybe it's anecdotal, but I remember hearing of and seeing the pics of a rolled C6 Z06 (on track), with the windshield (A-pillars) flattened down pretty good, but the factory hoop stood up exceptionally well, and the driver and passenger both walked away with no significant injuries.
The "naked" pictures of the Corvette skeleton is pretty impressive, IMO. The factory hoop clearly serves the purpose of a (very effective) roll bar.


I saw that video... pretty spectacular crash. Brake line failure lead to a high speed off, then encountered a dirt bank to use a launching ramp.

We're all playing the odds, to a certain extent, just by going to the track. I gotta believe the odds of a frontal impact are much greater than a violent roll over, especially during a track day as opposed to w-w racing.
There! I just convinced myself it'll be OK.

naschmitz

You also need to run at safe tracks.

I got complacent after years of running at VIR, WGI, Road Atlanta, etc. Last Fall I ran at a podunk track for the first time just to try it. Should have recognized their lack of safety because it's obvious -- no tire bundles protecting flag stands just 15 feet from the racing surface. If I didn't have a cage, I would be dead as the front of the car passed between two sections of guard rail. The A-pillars alone would not have stopped the car. The roll cage did stop the car and the HANS worked perfectly.

If the same thing happened at VIR, I would be picking grass out of my radiator or worst case ordering a new front bumper and paying to rebuild a belted tire bundle.

Mjolitor 68

Depends on whether you prefer to die w neck snapped or car crushing you.

I’d say they’re equally important.

Soloontario

At this stage I would rather not libel the group as they have the best intentions and I am hoping to get the rules changed. OTOH, yes they will insist that if you do not have a roll bar or cage that you cannot wear a harness, cannot use a regular head and neck restraint and can only use the OEM 3 points. I have asked repeatedly for data to form the basis of this rule and only get anecdotal responses.