Kubs

All 3 extremely good points. I always say drifting is just what happens when you make a mistake racing. I dont really get the appeal but it will teach you good car control. Up here in Ohio we get to practice this during the off season (Winter).


I had to watch the video without sound, but ill go back and watch later.

In addition to the 3 items listed above, the next biggest thing is being smooth. Smooth inputs in both steering and pedal application will keep the chassis happy and make you faster. When I instruct I like to use the analogy of a marble in a bowl to visualize grip/g force. The bowl represents your maximum grip in all directions (acceleration, braking, and cornering) similar to the friction circle. When you are not moving the marble is rest in the bottom of the bowl. If the marble rolls out of the bowl, you have exceeded the available grip (lock up brakes, slide sideways, etc). Under acceleration the marble moves to the back of the bowl. Under braking the marble is in the front of the bowl, and corner left or right and the marble moves to the sides of the bowl. As you are driving around the track try to think about what that marble is doing. The key is to get that marble to ride around the the top outside of the bowl. To transition from braking to cornering, you need to ease up off the brakes as you start to turn the wheel. When you accelerate out of the corner you need to start taking steering out as you apply the throttle. If you do this correctly, the marble will move from the front of the bowl to the back riding along the top edge. If you are not smooth the marble is going to be bouncing around the inside like a pinball which upsets the car and makes you slower, and less safe/predictable to other drivers.

Bill Dearborn

A lot of good advice. One thing you need to do is develop the ability to recover from mistakes or being out of position for corner entry due to making a late pass.

Once I have a novice student reasonably following the line I start having them make off line corner entries. If the corner is a 90 degree right I will have them move from the standard left edge entry position to mid track for a few laps. Then at some point when they get comfortable driving in off line, getting back on line near the apex and exiting on line I have them enter from the far right of the track and learn how to handle the corner from its worst possible entry point. Each of these entry positions change the corner, how you brake for the corner, how you control the car through the corner and help the driver develop a better understanding of the corner itself. As you get used to doing this you gain a lot of confidence about how you can drive that corner and you lose being a slave to the line.

The point where you went off track started when you turned in too early and early apexed the turn with the car pointing in the wrong direction when you went past the true apex. Review the video and think about corrections you could have made once the mistake was made. This is the scenario, I entered off line, how do I get back on line while in the turn.

By practicing all sorts of corner entry you start to understand/develop ways to bring the car back onto your normal driving line (every driver and every driver/car can have different lines they like best). Some of those ways can be holding the apex so instead of a short arc at the apex point you turn it into a longer tighter arc to get the car on to your line (this may have prevented your agricultural work at the exit of the turn). If the car is understeering and not wanting to hold the tighter arc that may necessitate going from a maintenance throttle to a quick lift off the throttle and gentle reapplication of the throttle or maybe even lift/apply the throttle a couple of times to pivot the car. Sometimes you may have to stab the brake hard on/off to get the correct amount of pivot.

The other thing is you may not always be able to be wide open throttle at the apex. That depends on how much the steering wheel is turned and the rate at which you are unwinding it. As the steering wheel is turned toward a sharper turn throttle input should be reduced and as the steering is unwound as you exit the apex throttle should be reapplied. When you are at full throttle depends on the point where the car can accelerate at max Gs with some steering input still in effect. That could be at the apex on some turns and it might be halfway from the apex to the track out point on other turns.

Bill

Purple92

Video wouldn't play for me - but a couple of quick points...

While I'm in 90% agreement with the statement that you shouldn't mod the car (particularly mods to make more power) - there are a couple of limited exceptions... Wheel alignment is in my opinion certainly one of those areas (brake pads would probably be another). Factory alignment specs are meant as a compromise for those who enjoy driving hard on an off ramp and for those who are taking the wife to a nice dinner at the country club. The engineers know that anyone taking the car out to the track is likely to move the alignment around a bit. Get some neg camber in the front end, and even a little in the rear. I'd suggest looking at the Pfadt website - they have alignment recommendations posted. The other thing is that the factory tolerance on the alignment specs is HUGE - any decent alignment shop will do a lot better than the factory specs allow. The PFADT numbers will give you a decent starting point - but the best way to get an idea about what the right alignment settings are for your car is to go out - do half a dozen good solid laps, and then pull in and get someone to check the outer, center and inside portion of each tire with a pyrometer - or even an IR gun. Do it fast - tire temps change fast. Write the numbers down, and talk to someone who knows something about chassis set up (or simply post them to this forum) - the tire temps tell the story about the effectiveness of the current alignment settings... Some people will recommend toe out on the front end - it tends to make the car turn in better - but it also causes the car to have a tendency to "wander" - I don't recommend it for non competitive uses - but the truth is that most pros have their cars set up with toe out....

I absolutely agree with Kubs - "smooth is fast". I normally tell my HPDE students that speed is a byproduct of doing everything correctly.

The problem with autocross is that you tend to be in a more reactive mode than when you drive on the track - and you really can't be as smooth in autocrossing as you should be on a road race track.

A couple more points... Driving in the rain on the track is a WONDERFUL teaching tool - it really rewards smoothness. We get to do that a fair amount out east - so if the option presents itself - go out, and do some time in the wet - just take it easy (and don't even consider doing it if you more to R compound rubber).

The car tends to go where you are looking. So - keep your vision focused way in front of you... We typically tell students "eyes up"....

One good way to see how you are doing through a given corner is to pick a point somewhere after track out (say a change in curbing, or a fixed feature of the track - and note your speed as you pass that point. If you do the corner better - you'll see higher speeds at this point. I say after track out - because by that point your wheel should be straight - your right foot should be flat on the floor, and you should have already checked mirrors etc - you can afford to use a quarter sec to evaluate your speed. Reviewing video is great - but instant feedback is also VERY useful.

I'm going to add one other thing to think about - and it has nothing to do with going faster. Spend 10 - 15 min to figure out what you will do if for some reason you can't drive your car home after a track day. It's a fundamental fact of life - track driving is great fun - (and probably more addictive than many opiates) but you are stressing parts of the car harder on the track than during street driving, and the odds are that eventually something is going to happen that won't allow you to drive the car home. You may have a tire fail, or something else happen (I've had a high pressure Power Steering hose fail on my C4 while at Lime Rock, and I've had a radiator hose fail up there as well.) The answer may be a simple as calling AAA, or it may involve a friend with a trailer. I'm just suggesting that you develop a plan, and have what you need to implement the plan along with you. If the plan involves calling a towing company - make sure you have their number with you (and I don't recommend having it only in your cell phone memory).


HAVE FUN !!!!!




PFADT corvette-alignment.pdf

theplatinumog

This is genius! I will 100% try this next time I go.

Obviously, I have watched that clip of me going off of turn 1 a lot. I figure I must not have been looking where I was going. Probably didn't find the apex on the way in and probably didn't see the track out during turn in. I remember trying to find this stupid little paint mark for turn-in, probably looking 5ft infront if the car right before turn in. I am assuming this because of what I remember about the mark on the ground, I don't trail brake hard, and there is a moment where I pick up the gas for a second.

I hope it is working for everyone else?

Wow. I will admit I am one lucky son-of-a-gun. It never even occurred to me what I would do if I couldn't drive home. That's really far. I have given this 0 thought. I will have a plan in place from now on. How silly of me.

TCorzett

AAA with the "Premier Package" has 200 miles of free towing per year (1x200, or 3x100 miles). Saved my butt when I had an axle failure at Sonoma (~70 mile tow) and when my engine died at Thunderhill (155 miles). The tow from Thunderhill would have been over $900 without AAA, but was covered with the $119 plan... both times they loaded-up from the paddock and drove me to the shop.

Bill Dearborn

That is an excellent catch about looking for that mark and it sounds like you may have found the reason you missed the turn. You need to keep your eyes up at speed and be looking for visual cues a lot further in front of you. Basically, the car is going to go where you are looking so the further out you can see the better. Any marks on the pavement or on the course that you would use for a turn in indicator should be seen in your peripheral vision. The other thing you find when practicing off line corner entries are different visual cues.

I picked up these diagrams from a book by Michael Krumm that hilite where we should be looking when we are going into and out of a turn:

This is approaching left hand turn like you would see on an oval something like Indy.

Corner Entry




Mid Corner




Corner Exit



The author was already a successful race driver and was having trouble keeping his speed up out of a corner like this when he talked to another driver who was running faster laps than he was. The other driver said he was looking further out and when the author changed his focus he dropped down to similar lap times. From his standpoint the better lap time helped him keep his ride.

Bill

kdm123

Lots of good advice. I'll add the following...

1) seat time
2) seat time
3) seat time
4) read all the books on race driving technique you can find on Amazon. The best one is the Skip Barber book, but I think you'll learn something from the others as well.
5) Watch YouTube videos of both experienced and beginner drivers. See the difference, and compare both to your driving.
6) You might be wasting your money on an expensive coach. Just get a club instructor to show you around. If you only need to learn the basics, you don't need a coach.
7) Compare your data against your instructors.
8) Spend lots of time on a skid pad.

If you ever come down to Willow, let me know!

Purple92

[QUOTE=kdm123;1596196024]Lots of good advice. I'll add the following...


6) You might be wasting your money on an expensive coach. Just get a club instructor to show you around. If you only need to learn the basics, you don't need a coach.
QUOTE]

Speaking as a club instructor - I would agree - but I could be somewhat biased.... Truthfully - we can teach the basics, and even some of the more advanced stuff, but as you get better and you start to talk about polishing your technique - that's where the coaches tend to earn their keep. I know someone who does that, and he has helped people who are already pretty far along the learning curve. I also recommend taking a ride with someone who's at the next level "up" from where you are every once in a while. I've been out with several people who have made a living driving race cars. My corner exit speed was pretty close to theirs - but they were significantly faster into the corner - they were braking a bit later, and they were rotating the car more. I'm just not comfortable with that level of rotation.

The one area I'll disagree with you (to a point) is in the area of seat time. YES, Seat time is massively important - but in the beginning - having someone who's knowledgeable about high performance driving riding shotgun is also critical - otherwise you might just be reinforcing bad technique - which takes even more effort to unlearn. Some parts of high performance driving are almost common sense - but other things - like forcing yourself not to apex early, and resisting the urge to lift mid corner when things are not lining up quite right - are simply not innate behavior...

One other thing that I should mention - as you get faster - improving further involves pushing past your comfort zone. At some point - you are starting to get very close to the limits of the vehicle, and the amount of error allowed is getting pretty small.... You get to decide how close you want to get to those limits.

Moto One

First off you were diving in Touring one, and over driving the active handling, TC, the C7 system is a little aggressive. That's why you had all the wear is on the inside of the front tires, the car was braking, wail you are trying to get (as your coach was telling you) to get on the gas, with out opening the steering angle. The 7 will not allow full throttle unless the steering angle is being relaxed on exit.

Most of your turn in points are too early (only by many 6 ft) except turn 7, your late (start your turn-in there at the access road on your left.

Also raise you field of view, set you self as low as you can in the car, this will force you to look farther down the road and not at road right in front of you.

Your going fast, but maybe if you slow down, smooth out your inputs , learn your marks, and repeat hitting your marks each lap (this also include gear selection at each corner) you'll might be rewarded with lower times with less wear and tear on your car at the same time.

If you are doing HOD events, try to get Terri Barret, or Steve Shaw to give you some pointers, they both have C7s, and know the car and what it does.

How do I know all of this, I was a demo driver for the C7 on intro to the public.


Mark.

Robert R1

Hey Mark,

I found taking a slightly later apex in T7 allowed me to stay flat out for T7 in my Z06 where an earlier apex would force me to do a slight lift to tuck in the front so the front doesnt wash out on exit when the track falls away.

Example: :48 and 2:43 for T7 approaches.

9 and 10, i found to be good for an early (relative) apex as the hill in 9 and banking in 10 will catch the car and let your carry more speed into the turn.

ofcourse, car, setup and drive preference is always the key factor.

Moto One

In the last video you line thur 7 was about what I do, I aim for the apex cone (if there is one) like I want to center punch it, same in 8, I also short shifting to 4th between 6 & 7. Noticed at 2 you are using the Miata line. Also noticed that your in 3rd gear and not shifting as much as your first posting, and TC is off?

Like you said, it's set-up and driver preference.

Merry Christmas.

Mak.

Robert R1

3rd gear most of the track. It’s a bit awkward into 10 as I can either shift to 4th or ping the rev limiter in 3rd for a few feet, avoid a downshift and carry more speed into 10. All aids off.

My heel toe skills need work with my limited track time or I’d probably use more gears lol

I change up my lines into 2 a lot as it’s a good place to test our different approaches, slides and generally a really good corner to practice car control.

rabrooks

You'd be surprised how crummy our alignment shops do. Even after we give them the specs, they get it wrong nearly every time. Learn to do your own alignment. When you do you'll see how crummy the shops do. If you have a buddy that owns an alignment shop, ask him to do the work while you watch. The problem is the shops don't want to take any more time to do your alignment as all the others.

Your tires show the care the alignment shops take. Its usually pathetic

village idiot

Stop running street tires. After a few track days, they're going to greasy and inconsistent day to day and lap to lap. I always thought running consistent lap times was black magic until I got proper compound tires. Now I can actually see what happens when I try different things and when I'm improving.

Purple92

Before you make any decisions on moving from street tires to "R" Compound tires - make sure to think things through...

The "R" Compound tires are significantly grippier, and will unquestionably let you turn faster laps - they let you corner harder, brake harder, and they are harder to spin under acceleration.

But - as with most everything in life - there are also cons:

1. The "R" Compound tires are simply unsafe if there is standing water where you are driving - and that includes the trip to and from the track unless you tow the car ! The tires typically come with less than 6/32 inch of tread, and that first 1/16" diminishes quickly (if you don't have the tires shaved before you mount them). Hit standing water at street speeds - and the car IS GOING to hydroplane - it'll stop hydroplaning when you get to dry pavement again - but if you hit a puddle at 100 MPH - this can be a problem !!!! (Next time you are at the track and it rains - to the point that there is standing water - see what the guys running the "R" compound rubber are doing... Hint - they are probably NOT out on the track !!!)

2. The higher performance the tires are - the narrower their "operating window" is. Street tires will deal with greater than optimum slip angles by howling, more wheel angle creates more howl... As you get into the "R" compound rubber - too much slip angle and the tire grip goes away. Real slicks = a very small margin to overdrive before they lose all grip. So - if you don't yet have the skill set to understand what the car is telling you about grip - "R"-Compound tires will increase the potential for a "big moment".

3. "R" Compound tires don't like large numbers of heat cycles. The more times you bring them to the temps that they like best - the lower their peak performance level will be. Translation - even if you never drive the car in conditions that MIGHT include rain - if you street drive the car - taking it out a few times will impact how the "R" compound tires perform at the limit....

4. If you want to get a 2nd set of wheels - and keep your track tires on the one set - street rubber on the other set - you have to deal with the 2 sets of TMPS sensors.

Don't get me wrong - most of the "faster run groups" you will see in HPDE events are running "R" compound rubber - but there are a number of tradeoffs that you need to be aware of ... If you have doubts about what I'm saying - call Tire Rack and speak to them about the "R" Compound rubber they sell (oh - and by the way - the "R" compound tires Ain't cheap)...

Moto One

What Purple92 said... I'v run street tires for the past 3 years (Conti DWs) 40 to 60 track days @ maybe 75 miles on track, a day, 30k plus road. Coaching, doing lead/follow, and just turning laps because they were free, and I can use the practice... You can be consistent in laps on 300+ tread wear tires, there is less wear an tear because of the lower grip. And if you happen to to Agriculture you are less likely to damage a tire.

True that there is a wonderful feeling of total grip when on R tires in a properly set up car, but that only last a few dozen laps if you warm up for a couple of laps and minding your aggression, then it's another grand (kinda like drugs).

A driver that I work with driving a Cup GT4 Cayman, will go thru 3 sets at a practice day, and that is with us making him drive his last two season on old tires to get use to the fall off because in most races you run the hole race on one set. Oh on race weekends maybe 4 sets are used in practice/qualifying, and the race.

Mark.

village idiot

I don't understand how you guys can run street tires for more than 2-3 laps without them getting greasy and going to complete **** in cars as heavy, powerful and capable as ours.

Robert R1

Cup2's are good for a couple of hot laps. You need to take a lap off to cool them down and pick up the pace again.

Cup 1's were the same way.

If you had a really cool day, you could do a few more laps in a row but in warm temps, 2 is about you can get.

village idiot

I wasn't referring to cup/cup2 tires. I was talking about the PSS and Conti DW's in the posts above.

Moto One

Simple: you don't over drive them, staying with in there traction limits. The fact that the DWs are a harder compound, they don't melt off until a higher temp, and it true they don't off the same grip as say a 200 tread wear tire. Same goes for R compound tires only with more grip. Any tire will give up grip if abused or over driven. It's the driver responsibility to recognize and adjust driving inputs to control tire temp.

Mark.