Pca not allowing harness bars???
#21
Safety is all relative.
Those of us with dual purpose cars have to hit some form of compromise that we can live with.
So the real question is, what is your relative risk of injury using a harness and HANS type device with a harness bar vs using OEM belts when involved in an incident. Most would agree that frontal impact injuries will be less using a HANS device with a properly installed harness bar. I think the results are NOT in re the relative safety of a harness and HANS vs OEM 3 points in a roll over.
Those of us with dual purpose cars have to hit some form of compromise that we can live with.
So the real question is, what is your relative risk of injury using a harness and HANS type device with a harness bar vs using OEM belts when involved in an incident. Most would agree that frontal impact injuries will be less using a HANS device with a properly installed harness bar. I think the results are NOT in re the relative safety of a harness and HANS vs OEM 3 points in a roll over.
We don't know the motivation of PCA. There are so many issues to consider. They are making compromises too just like drivers do in setting up a dual use car.
In this age of "self-tech" I can see the low hanging fruit would be to allow only oem stuff in HPDE. Maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle where you can self tech OEM stuff or have an annual tech like SCCA or NASA for racecars. The mid range tech would be an annual for your non-oem safety installation and your car would have a logbook by VIN and tech inspected for safety only. That would catch the bozo harness installs, outdated belts, and seats with 2 bolts etc. We actually came from there. Organizers and drivers did not want to do it and drivers flocked to self tech organizations. Those orgs have no staff for "tech" and often even had very questionable safety crews on site for drivers. Their prices reflected their leanness too.
The bottom line is if drivers really wanted to be safe they would take some time to learn about who's events they attend. I have witnessed SCCA having the budget to airlift out a driver with minor injury rather than delay the schedule but the cost of that to drivers much higher cost/on track mile. I've witnessed an organization using an open trailer as a tow truck! The drivers pay the least for that tracktime.
#22
If you drive caged car on the street, the cage can kill you because you have no helmet, as far as the harness bar with a stock seat, a hard rear impact can break your seat around the bar and thus your back. All racing orgs require a impact plate to keep a FIA seat from snapping on the cage's horizontal bar. Either go all in or stay OEM IMO. Use the new hybrid HANS that uses your torso instead of shoulder belts if you are not caged or buy a better seat to keep from sliding around.
#23
Pro
People need to consult with Joe Marko or those he gets his info from. There is not much data either way but there is enough to make me want to do harness bar and hans in a streetcar. There is plenty of data that shows the lower incidence of rollover vs. other accidents. Just that alone would lead me to think hans harnessbar is the way to go.
If you drive caged car on the street, the cage can kill you because you have no helmet, as far as the harness bar with a stock seat, a hard rear impact can break your seat around the bar and thus your back. All racing orgs require a impact plate to keep a FIA seat from snapping on the cage's horizontal bar. Either go all in or stay OEM IMO. Use the new hybrid HANS that uses your torso instead of shoulder belts if you are not caged or buy a better seat to keep from sliding around.
#24
Team Owner
Does the harness bar car in question have airbags?
If so, factory harnesses or harness bar belts *should be fine.
To me, that is the Line in the Sand, airbag or no airbag.
The average or newbie weekend trackdaze participant that wishes to have a better harness system should not be subjected to mandatory additional equipment if the Factory airbag systems are still in place.
Let's keep in mind that the majority of cars that are participating in the two seat groups are people that want to learn how to drive their STREET car fast and enhance their skills. A lot of times, the harness bar and belt system are an enhancement to driver and passenger safety.
Has anyone met any of the Potomac guys that run the events? You will know where this new direction is coming from once you understand the personalities involved. Being progressive at the expense of attendance is at opposite ends of the spectrum.
More rules and regulations for basic HPDE instructor cars is a fallacy in my opinion.
The number of 500+ HP student cars is increasing. Though, with the factory safety systems still being intact does not warrant any further regulations.
If so, factory harnesses or harness bar belts *should be fine.
To me, that is the Line in the Sand, airbag or no airbag.
The average or newbie weekend trackdaze participant that wishes to have a better harness system should not be subjected to mandatory additional equipment if the Factory airbag systems are still in place.
Let's keep in mind that the majority of cars that are participating in the two seat groups are people that want to learn how to drive their STREET car fast and enhance their skills. A lot of times, the harness bar and belt system are an enhancement to driver and passenger safety.
Has anyone met any of the Potomac guys that run the events? You will know where this new direction is coming from once you understand the personalities involved. Being progressive at the expense of attendance is at opposite ends of the spectrum.
More rules and regulations for basic HPDE instructor cars is a fallacy in my opinion.
The number of 500+ HP student cars is increasing. Though, with the factory safety systems still being intact does not warrant any further regulations.
#25
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The factory hoop is questionable.
I also believe a part of this decisions i that quite a few harness bars have very questionable mounting or just overall aren't designed for an impact. (the same could be said for quite a few "bolt in rollbars")
They're less a safety thing and more to hold you in the seat better with a harness.
I think that the rollbar requirement shouldn't really be a thing until you're in the higher run groups or whatever but I personally am more of an all or nothing kind of person.
Bill
#26
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The vast majority of track crashes aren't roll overs. I think they are seeing situations where harness bars fail in just the regular crashes into walls and other obstacles. Hanging a harness bar between two bolts that are meant to support the stock seat belts from a shear standpoint changes the way the forces are applied to them. Instead of all of the upper body weight being applied in a shock load on one shear point on the bolt the force is distributed across a bar that acts like a lever arm as the bar flexes under the impact. This may cause the bolt to fail or something else to fail. None of the harness bars developed for the Corvette have ever been tested to see how they would hold up in a crash. We have some so called computer analysis but no actual data. A roll bar has the same issue but usually they are over built and if they are welded to the frame there is enough cross bracing that they will hold up and not flex too much or break in an impact.
Bill
Bill
#27
Pro
I agree that not all harness bars are equal and I doubt very much they are crash tested but OTOH, is anyone aware of some one suffering injury that can be attributed to a harness bar failure in a crash? Surely there have been enough incidents of impacts in cars with harness bars to have at least have some experience.
Last edited by Soloontario; 01-21-2018 at 10:09 AM.
#28
Melting Slicks
I agree that not all harness bars are equal and I doubt very much they are crash tested but OTOH, is anyone aware of some one suffering injury that can be attributed to a harness bar failure in a crash? Surely there have been enough incidents of impacts in cars with harness bars to have at least have some experience.
Harness bar worked perfectly in that instance. Neither of us moved hardly and the C7 was totaled. My side took the brunt of the impact. No issues at all with the harnesses or harness bar.
I witnessed a wicked shot at Summit Point main track exiting 10. They were in a C5. Harness bar worked perfectly keeping Driver and Instructor safe. That car was DESTROYED!! Sounded like a bomb went off when it hit the wall. Poorsha was there too as I recall?
As I mentioned our only death happened at Watkins Glen to a Driver wearing OEM belts. His neck was broken in the frontal impact when he traveled straight on into the wall in 6.
That said after conversation with my Wife we are going to put a roll bar in the Viper and her C6Z will get a cage as fast as I can make it happen.
Thinking about it practically I thought to myself in my specific case, why not? If it can only make the experience safer it's a plus so instead of fighting or saying the guy doesn't have any real evidence to support his outlaw of harness bars I will just make my cars compliant and never worry about the issue again.
#29
Melting Slicks
I'd suggest contacting Brey-Krause about their harness bars. They are the only company I know of that stress tests (or whatever procedure/test they do) their bars.
#30
Pro
I am aware of the Brey-Krause stress testing which is great but isn't quite the same as crash testings.
No one is suggesting that a harness bar and HANS is as good as a cage and containment seat, but the real question is this: is a harness bar, harness and HANS equal to or worse than OEM restraints? If it isn't worse (frankly my opinion is that it is better) and OEM is acceptable for HPDE then why ban harness bars?
No one is suggesting that a harness bar and HANS is as good as a cage and containment seat, but the real question is this: is a harness bar, harness and HANS equal to or worse than OEM restraints? If it isn't worse (frankly my opinion is that it is better) and OEM is acceptable for HPDE then why ban harness bars?
#31
Drifting
Thinking about it practically I thought to myself in my specific case, why not? If it can only make the experience safer it's a plus so instead of fighting or saying the guy doesn't have any real evidence to support his outlaw of harness bars I will just make my cars compliant and never worry about the issue again.
#32
Drifting
Just received this email from PCA Potomac. Looks like they are taking back the roll bar requirement.
PCA Potomac DE Program - IMPORTANT SAFETY RULES UPDATE *REVISION*
Last week, a notice of several rule changes for our upcoming Potomac DE program was sent out. The announcement included a change requiring a roll bar when using harnesses "in anticipation of the forthcoming mandate from PCA National". We have clarified this with National. PCA National has no current plans to implement a rule requiring a roll bar.
After further consideration and discussions, the earlier changes will not take place as listed. The following will take place:
EFFECTIVE July 1, 2018: an approved Head and Neck Restraint System (HANS) device is required when using a harness.
When using a head and neck restraint device, it must meet the standards of either SFI 38.1 or FIA 8858. It is recommended that one follow the SFI Recertification process for the head and neck restraint device. The instructions for this can be found on the device. Additionally, it is recommended that the straps be replaced every five years.
Also keep in mind, both the driver and passenger must have the same restraint system and both the driver and the passenger must use the same restraint system.
Potomac will have a few sets of helmet anchors available and at this time we believe there are enough available HANS to be borrowed.
The participant should BE AWARE that the addition of such a seat, harness and HANS device system results in the occupant being fastened upright in the vehicle. Therefore, in order to have a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage device are strongly encouraged and highly recommended. The use of such a seat, harness and HANS device system without roll protection may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM.
The "seat" should be either an "OEM or aftermarket racing type seat specifically designed to accommodate a harness system most typically a non-reclining seat with holes incorporated in the manufacturing process to allow proper use of a harness system."
"All roll cage installations must conform to PCA Club Racing Standards Appendix A-Roll Cage Specifications . If participants choose to install a roll bar, they must meet the tubing size and mounting/installation requirements as outlined in Appendix A-Roll Cage Specifications in the PCA club racing rulebook and/or be installed to the manufacturer specifications."
If you have any questions or would like further information please contact DEchair@pcapotomac.org, Safety@pca.org, or tech@pcapotomac.org
PCA Potomac's commitment to safety is paramount and we believe these rule changes will only strengthen that resolve.
Thank you and we'll see you at the track!
The PCA Potomac DE Committee
PCA Potomac DE Program - IMPORTANT SAFETY RULES UPDATE *REVISION*
Last week, a notice of several rule changes for our upcoming Potomac DE program was sent out. The announcement included a change requiring a roll bar when using harnesses "in anticipation of the forthcoming mandate from PCA National". We have clarified this with National. PCA National has no current plans to implement a rule requiring a roll bar.
After further consideration and discussions, the earlier changes will not take place as listed. The following will take place:
EFFECTIVE July 1, 2018: an approved Head and Neck Restraint System (HANS) device is required when using a harness.
When using a head and neck restraint device, it must meet the standards of either SFI 38.1 or FIA 8858. It is recommended that one follow the SFI Recertification process for the head and neck restraint device. The instructions for this can be found on the device. Additionally, it is recommended that the straps be replaced every five years.
Also keep in mind, both the driver and passenger must have the same restraint system and both the driver and the passenger must use the same restraint system.
Potomac will have a few sets of helmet anchors available and at this time we believe there are enough available HANS to be borrowed.
The participant should BE AWARE that the addition of such a seat, harness and HANS device system results in the occupant being fastened upright in the vehicle. Therefore, in order to have a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage device are strongly encouraged and highly recommended. The use of such a seat, harness and HANS device system without roll protection may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM.
The "seat" should be either an "OEM or aftermarket racing type seat specifically designed to accommodate a harness system most typically a non-reclining seat with holes incorporated in the manufacturing process to allow proper use of a harness system."
"All roll cage installations must conform to PCA Club Racing Standards Appendix A-Roll Cage Specifications . If participants choose to install a roll bar, they must meet the tubing size and mounting/installation requirements as outlined in Appendix A-Roll Cage Specifications in the PCA club racing rulebook and/or be installed to the manufacturer specifications."
If you have any questions or would like further information please contact DEchair@pcapotomac.org, Safety@pca.org, or tech@pcapotomac.org
PCA Potomac's commitment to safety is paramount and we believe these rule changes will only strengthen that resolve.
Thank you and we'll see you at the track!
The PCA Potomac DE Committee
#33
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As for the PCA Rules here is the link to their National Web Page defining the rules https://www.pca.org/driver-education-minimum-standards. I think that means every PCA event will be run this way from 2018 on.
Reading the rules is interesting. Under the equal restraints portion both occupants of a car must have equal restraints and both occupants have to use equal restraints. HANS devices are only highly recommended but are considered what makes up a COMPLETE RESTRAINT system. I suspect that means if an Instructor with an approved (has to meet PCA requirements) roll bar/cage takes a student for a ride the instructor can't use a HANS if the student doesn't have one.
Bill
#34
Racer
Having a dual purpose sports car will always represent the greatest risk for injury ( as I do). I agree with tw78911sc, the Hans Hybrid, approved for use with the 3-point OEM seat belt seem like the best compromise for me as an occasional HDPE participant. My C5 FRC has decent rollover protection, Air bags, Hans Hybrid, and no added potential for injury driving on the street with a roll bar.
#35
Pro
Thread Starter
Just received this email from PCA Potomac. Looks like they are taking back the roll bar requirement.
PCA Potomac DE Program - IMPORTANT SAFETY RULES UPDATE *REVISION*
Last week, a notice of several rule changes for our upcoming Potomac DE program was sent out. The announcement included a change requiring a roll bar when using harnesses "in anticipation of the forthcoming mandate from PCA National". We have clarified this with National. PCA National has no current plans to implement a rule requiring a roll bar.
Thank you and we'll see you at the track!
The PCA Potomac DE Committee
PCA Potomac DE Program - IMPORTANT SAFETY RULES UPDATE *REVISION*
Last week, a notice of several rule changes for our upcoming Potomac DE program was sent out. The announcement included a change requiring a roll bar when using harnesses "in anticipation of the forthcoming mandate from PCA National". We have clarified this with National. PCA National has no current plans to implement a rule requiring a roll bar.
Thank you and we'll see you at the track!
The PCA Potomac DE Committee
Having a dual purpose sports car will always represent the greatest risk for injury ( as I do). I agree with tw78911sc, the Hans Hybrid, approved for use with the 3-point OEM seat belt seem like the best compromise for me as an occasional HDPE participant. My C5 FRC has decent rollover protection, Air bags, Hans Hybrid, and no added potential for injury driving on the street with a roll bar.
I kind of disagree. I have a dual use car and I agree this is the greatest risk. But, having a FIA seat with HALO, harness, harness bar, and simpson hybrid I feel that covers me the most.
Yes, I would agree, the rollover would be the worst case situation for this set-up. But that leaves front, rear, and side impact as being "better". So, I am doing the best I feel I can to cover the most bases.
I hope to god I never need to test any of this.
#38
Pro
Scary indeed seeing a harness bar shear at the bolt
OTOH, I don't quite understand this statement
In this case the driver may have actually been fortunate because he was not wearing a HANS and the impact was so severe if the bar hadn't failed he could well have experienced the type of skull fracture the HANS is designed to prevent.
If the bar sheared on impact, the HANS device would have been ineffective anyway so the driver could still have experienced sudden neck flexion caused by deceleration. I would have thought in that case if would be great to have an airbag (which the driver had removed). No mention of the injuries the driver received.
Wonder how many harness bars fail like this on impact. I know the Brey-Krause guys do quite a bit of strength testing of the bar but if the failure is the B pillar bolt........
Any one else seen a bar fail at the B pillar mounting points?
OTOH, I don't quite understand this statement
In this case the driver may have actually been fortunate because he was not wearing a HANS and the impact was so severe if the bar hadn't failed he could well have experienced the type of skull fracture the HANS is designed to prevent.
If the bar sheared on impact, the HANS device would have been ineffective anyway so the driver could still have experienced sudden neck flexion caused by deceleration. I would have thought in that case if would be great to have an airbag (which the driver had removed). No mention of the injuries the driver received.
Wonder how many harness bars fail like this on impact. I know the Brey-Krause guys do quite a bit of strength testing of the bar but if the failure is the B pillar bolt........
Any one else seen a bar fail at the B pillar mounting points?
#39
Melting Slicks
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Any mechanical engineers following this?
Can you calculate the load on that bolt vs. what size bolt should resist breaking?
On a side note... had the C6Z out to Laguna last weekend, 2nd time with it out.
Had the stock seat and harnesses first time. Didn't feel safe, felt like I might fall out of the car!
This time I had a race seat, harnesses, Hans, B-K harness bar. Still didn't really feel safe, just from the sheer speed of the car.
Might track the car a couple more times, but not planning to make it the regular track toy!
Last edited by Nowanker; 01-28-2018 at 02:19 PM.
#40
Instructor
Has anyone seen or knows if a roll bar could be made, or if there is one already that can both give some frame mounted rigidity and strength, while also retaining the ability to put the roof in the trunk for us coupe C6 / C6 GS owners?