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Help: Michelin PS4S or Nitto NT-01 for HPDE & Street Use
Hey everyone,
It's that time of year again and I think my 2006 Z06 deserves some fresh rubber. My questions and some background info are below. Please share your feedback!
Background info:
- I drive 3-5k km per year (2-3k miles) which includes 4-8 HPDE days at Mosport (and hopefully Watkins Glen this year!). The street mileage includes everything from twisty backroads to 1hr highway drives to the beach. I want to keep my yearly mileage up to feel I'm getting good use out of owning this car.
- I'm currently on oem sized PSS made in 2013. I've done ~6 trackdays on these tires last year (total of ~10-12 days between this car and my M3). They have tons of tread left but they feel hardened and lack grip, so I want to upgrade my tires and need your help to make the best choice.
- I realize this is a situation of compromise, so to help understand my priorities, I'd say durability/cost effectiveness is more important than the absolute lowest laptime. There is a lot to learn with this car and I want my next tire to help facilitate that over the next few summers.
Questions:
1. Based on my usage above, do you think the PS4S or NT01 will be better suited for me? I don't drive this car in the rain.
2. Do you think the PS4S will get killed on the track/the NT01 will get killed on the street? I've only clocked a ~1.37 at Mosport on these current PSS to provide context.
3. The NT01 has been around forever while the PS4S uses newer technology. Do you think this narrows the gap that usually exists between these classes, or not really? The Michelins will cost me $200 CAD more than the Nittos.
They aren't even hardly comparable, as they are two totally different types of tires.
The Michelin's are 300 treadwear tires. They'll last a REALLY long time but stick nowhere near as well as the Nitto NT01. Also, not sure how well they would handle track use and heat. But, since you apparently didn't drive hard enough to have issues with the SuperSports...they will likely be fine too. They are a newer tire, but built for an entirely different purpose. They will never handle/stick like the NT01's.
The Nitto NT01 are 100 treadwear R compound competition tires. They were specifically made for the track. They'll wear fast, stick like glue, and handle heat very well. I have a comparable set of R888R's and they will be done after my 4th track day and maybe 1000 street miles.
Thanks, yes I agree that they’re in different categories. It’s a shame that none of the newer 200tw tires seem to come in c6z sizes, as I'd love to run an re71r or something as an ‘in between’ step.
I think I can still improve while running PS4S and then make the jump to R-compounds the next time around. Just looking for feedback on if that tire has held up for other c6/z owners or if they’re going to be killed after a few days.
It's a tough choice and I can see why you are in it. Ultimately, you need to choose whether you want to maximize the life/versatility of the tire or performance. If you value performance more then the choice is easy - NT01. It is a proven tire that loves the track, works great on the street, can operate in the rain in a pinch (I've driven directly through rainstorms on these tires and driven them on the track in semi-wet/sprinkling conditions with no drama) and is overall a superior track tire that provides a measurable and noticeable difference in performance. Additionally, they hold up much longer than most think. I usually get 30+ heat cycles out of my NT01s, and often they tread out before heat cycling out. They last far longer than 4 track days and will hold up for a long time on the street. I could see you easily getting a full season out of these tires. Even after the lateral rain grooves are worn off they still have around 3/32nds of an inch of extremely useful tread left and essentially become a racing slick. In fact, I am often times the fastest when this happens.
PS4S are a great tire, designed for street performance and occasional track. They will hold up very well, last a long time and can be used in a variety of conditions. It will work for your purposes, but you will compromise a degree of performance.
I honestly don't think there is a wrong choice here. It is just a matter of preference. I value performance over longevity/versatility so I use NT01. In fact, they are my street tire and fun tire on the track. Hoosier R7 are my dedicated track tire.
It's a tough choice and I can see why you are in it. Ultimately, you need to choose whether you want to maximize the life/versatility of the tire or performance. If you value performance more then the choice is easy - NT01. It is a proven tire that loves the track, works great on the street, can operate in the rain in a pinch (I've driven directly through rainstorms on these tires and driven them on the track in semi-wet/sprinkling conditions with no drama) and is overall a superior track tire that provides a measurable and noticeable difference in performance. Additionally, they hold up much longer than most think. I usually get 30+ heat cycles out of my NT01s, and often they tread out before heat cycling out. They last far longer than 4 track days and will hold up for a long time on the street. I could see you easily getting a full season out of these tires. Even after the lateral rain grooves are worn off they still have around 3/32nds of an inch of extremely useful tread left and essentially become a racing slick. In fact, I am often times the fastest when this happens.
PS4S are a great tire, designed for street performance and occasional track. They will hold up very well, last a long time and can be used in a variety of conditions. It will work for your purposes, but you will compromise a degree of performance.
I honestly don't think there is a wrong choice here. It is just a matter of preference. I value performance over longevity/versatility so I use NT01. In fact, they are my street tire and fun tire on the track. Hoosier R7 are my dedicated track tire.
Thanks for the very insightful reply!
If you don’t mind, could you offer some insight on how the NT01s are in terms of feedback? I’ve heard the “R-comps break away with little warning, but I was wondering if that applies to the NT01 as much as it does to a RA1 or more dedicated tire.
Currently im leaning towards the Michelin’s just because I think I can still learn and improve with them while having a bit of additional safety margin (from lower limits and more audible feedback), and then step up to the NT01 with that extra experience under my belt.
I actually just put on PS4S’s today for street use, so far they feel good and are very quiet. I run a 19/20 set up on a C6Z. I bought them because I run Sport Cup 2’zp which stick like glue on track but don’t last long.
Thanks for the very insightful reply!
If you don’t mind, could you offer some insight on how the NT01s are in terms of feedback? I’ve heard the “R-comps break away with little warning, but I was wondering if that applies to the NT01 as much as it does to a RA1 or more dedicated tire.
Currently im leaning towards the Michelin’s just because I think I can still learn and improve with them while having a bit of additional safety margin (from lower limits and more audible feedback), and then step up to the NT01 with that extra experience under my belt.
NT01s are nothing to be afraid of. They provide ample breakaway feedback and if anything are safer on the track than a street tire like the PS4S, because they take heat much better and provide far more lateral stability. No they won't squeal like pigs as a street tire does when it begins to lose lateral grip, but they provide sufficient/adequate feedback and are VERY VERY easy to catch. You won't suddenly go flying off the track unless you simply didn't belong on the track to begin with. I would much rather be in a car that is on R compounds than street tires on the track, and that includes sitting in the right hand seat. I personally find them to be safer, predictable, easier to manage and plenty easy to learn on. The limit is what you make it and it is far easier to under-drive R compounds and learn than over drive street tires and learn. No reason to be squealing around the track on street tires when a more suitable tire is available - leave that for first timers/one timers. If you are serious at all about the track, you need a track oriented tire and there is nothing to be afraid of. Not sure how else I can say it.
NT01s are track tires that can be driven on the street. The Michelins are street tires that can be driven on the track. Pick your preference. Both work and both are good choices. You can't go wrong and I wouldn't fret too much over the decision (although I do understand the conundrum). If it's me, NT01. Another guy might choose the performance street tire and that's cool too (but it isn't necessarily safer or more predictable).
NT01s are nothing to be afraid of. They provide ample breakaway feedback and if anything are safer on the track than a street tire like the PS4S, because they take heat much better and provide far more lateral stability. No they won't squeal like pigs as a street tire does when it begins to lose lateral grip, but they provide sufficient/adequate feedback and are VERY VERY easy to catch. You won't suddenly go flying off the track unless you simply didn't belong on the track to begin with. I would much rather be in a car that is on R compounds than street tires on the track, and that includes sitting in the right hand seat. I personally find them to be safer, predictable, easier to manage and plenty easy to learn on. The limit is what you make it and it is far easier to under-drive R compounds and learn than over drive street tires and learn. No reason to be squealing around the track on street tires when a more suitable tire is available - leave that for first timers/one timers. If you are serious at all about the track, you need a track oriented tire and there is nothing to be afraid of. Not sure how else I can say it.
NT01s are track tires that can be driven on the street. The Michelins are street tires that can be driven on the track. Pick your preference. Both work and both are good choices. You can't go wrong and I wouldn't fret too much over the decision (although I do understand the conundrum). If it's me, NT01. Another guy might choose the performance street tire and that's cool too (but it isn't necessarily safer or more predictable).
Thanks again! That did address my concerns about it. I’ll be hitting the thanks button once I’m on desktop lol.
Thanks Mordeth, useful information for me as well. I'm really hoping your claims on longevity of the NT01 are true, because that's fantastic. I have one day left in my R888R's and then I'll be purchasing my first set of NT01's.
They aren't even hardly comparable, as they are two totally different types of tires.
The Michelin's are 300 treadwear tires. They'll last a REALLY long time but stick nowhere near as well as the Nitto NT01. Also, not sure how well they would handle track use and heat. But, since you apparently didn't drive hard enough to have issues with the SuperSports...they will likely be fine too. They are a newer tire, but built for an entirely different purpose. They will never handle/stick like the NT01's.
The Nitto NT01 are 100 treadwear R compound competition tires. They were specifically made for the track. They'll wear fast, stick like glue, and handle heat very well. I have a comparable set of R888R's and they will be done after my 4th track day and maybe 1000 street miles.
Same here - R888, but now I have a set of slicks. IMO it’s the best dual-purpose tire or a PS Cups.
Based on the reviews I have read, the PS4S is quite fast, but alignment sensitive and tricky to extract the best out of. It sounds like the Michelin might even be faster than the NT01 for at least one perfect lap.
The NT01 is a very friendly, middle of the road tire. It has the benefit of being less temperature sensitive than some of the street tires when used on the track. Never tried driving them in the rain though. If you are looking to practice and iterate it should work pretty well. I didn't think they lasted forever though, and they did fall off quite a bit at the end.
Based on the reviews I have read, the PS4S is quite fast, but alignment sensitive and tricky to extract the best out of. It sounds like the Michelin might even be faster than the NT01 for at least one perfect lap.
The NT01 is a very friendly, middle of the road tire. It has the benefit of being less temperature sensitive than some of the street tires when used on the track. Never tried driving them in the rain though. If you are looking to practice and iterate it should work pretty well. I didn't think they lasted forever though, and they did fall off quite a bit at the end.
We're talking about Nitto NT01's here right? You're sure you aren't confusing them with another tire?
There's no way the PS4S is as fast as the NT01, they are a track tire that works on the street, and they are notoriously consistent throughout their lifespan straight to the cords.
NT01s are nothing to be afraid of. They provide ample breakaway feedback and if anything are safer on the track than a street tire like the PS4S, because they take heat much better and provide far more lateral stability. No they won't squeal like pigs as a street tire does when it begins to lose lateral grip, but they provide sufficient/adequate feedback and are VERY VERY easy to catch. You won't suddenly go flying off the track unless you simply didn't belong on the track to begin with. I would much rather be in a car that is on R compounds than street tires on the track, and that includes sitting in the right hand seat. I personally find them to be safer, predictable, easier to manage and plenty easy to learn on. The limit is what you make it and it is far easier to under-drive R compounds and learn than over drive street tires and learn. No reason to be squealing around the track on street tires when a more suitable tire is available - leave that for first timers/one timers. If you are serious at all about the track, you need a track oriented tire and there is nothing to be afraid of. Not sure how else I can say it.
NT01s are track tires that can be driven on the street. The Michelins are street tires that can be driven on the track. Pick your preference. Both work and both are good choices. You can't go wrong and I wouldn't fret too much over the decision (although I do understand the conundrum). If it's me, NT01. Another guy might choose the performance street tire and that's cool too (but it isn't necessarily safer or more predictable).
Based on the reviews I have read, the PS4S is quite fast, but alignment sensitive and tricky to extract the best out of. It sounds like the Michelin might even be faster than the NT01 for at least one perfect lap.
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nope. not even close. PS4S is a great street tire, but nowhere close (for HPDE) with the super 200tw tires (RE71R, Rival S, RS4). heck, even NT01 is no faster than RE71R (ok, may be after 3 laps in 100F weather).
another good choice is Sport Cup 2. expensive, but good dual use tire.
Last edited by bellwilliam; 05-11-2018 at 01:19 PM.
I wouldn't street drive NT01s. You'll chew them up way too fast and it's far too risky if there is a sudden downpour or whatever.
Stick with the PS4S or PSS for dual-purpose use.
Other than the possible noise issues, I wouldn't hesitate to use them on a summer-only car. Out of all the R comp tires, these have the longest lifespan that I've seen. I wouldn't recommend them for the wet, but I raced on them in the rain once and they weren't awful.
If the car only sees a few K/year, what the heck?
We're talking about Nitto NT01's here right? You're sure you aren't confusing them with another tire?
There's no way the PS4S is as fast as the NT01, they are a track tire that works on the street, and they are notoriously consistent throughout their lifespan straight to the cords.
Sure, they're a track tire. A slow track tire. New street tires like Rival S, RE71R are easily faster than the NT01. Even something slower like the RS4 was faster for me. I have run through a set of all four of them. Not much of a stretch for the Michelin, given how good the PSS was.
No tread and a track focused compound is still going to be lots more fun over the course of a whole track session though. If it isn't raining.
nope. not even close. PS4S is a great street tire, but nowhere close (for HPDE) with the super 200tw tires (RE71R, Rival S, RS4). heck, even NT01 is no faster than RE71R (ok, may be after 3 laps in 100F weather).
another good choice is Sport Cup 2. expensive, but good dual use tire.
On my tests. The hankooks rs3 v2 were quite a bit slower than stock c7 PSS zp, same indicated size. Some 1.5 second slower on a 1:25 lap. The michellins do run wide. I ran them 1 month apart, same car setup and about same weather. R888r was about 2.5 seconds faster than the hankooks. I doubt the rs4 is that much faster than rs3. Nt01 are said to be pretty close to r888r.
Last edited by BrunoTheMellow; 05-12-2018 at 10:52 AM.
05-10-2018, 11:48 AM
Help: Michelin PS4S or Nitto NT-01 for HPDE & Street Use
Left the Hoosiers on the trailer for this mess....
