AdamBrouillard

In general the looser a car is, the faster it will be assuming you aren't getting more oversteer than you can handle. Body roll in itself doesn't make you slower unless it makes camber go too positive. If this happens you can get some counter intuitive results where softening the front bar will increase understeer. You'll see heavy shoulder wear on the tire if this happens.

Since you can easily adjust your bars, I would recommend playing with settings to see what produces your best times as that is what matters. While looser is generally faster, you can go too far. I've been working with a guy lately who has amazing car control and someone set his car up way too loose. He could handle it, but it was really hurting his ability to go to throttle and costing him lots of time.

AdamBrouillard

Great suggestion, I should have mentioned that as well. I always used to recommend autocross to newer drivers. Test and tune days are the best.

AdamBrouillard

I'd really need a specific video example with a comment to give a more precise answer, but I can give some general observations.

From the outside of the car, it's very hard to see differences unless one of the drivers is making significant errors. An in-car view where you can see the steering can tell you a lot about a driver's abilities, but even with this, a difference of .05 in a corner is typically imperceptible from a driving technique standpoint. At the top levels, the drivers are both going to be doing things correctly, one is just doing it ever so slightly more correctly than the other.

I do think there probably is some driver "branding" that goes on although it's probably just human's nature to label and categorize, not any sort of ulterior motives. Take Jenson Button for example. People would always talk about how "smooth" he was. Here's a video of him over the years. To me, his hands are just as fast as any other top level drivers. I'm really curious what the origin of his "smoothness" is.


Not saying that drivers don't have differences, but at the top level, it's not going to be something that can significantly affect lap times or they wouldn't be there.

Interesting you mentioned the sommelier thing. I always use to think it was b.s. too, but I watched this doc about it and at least some of them are legit. These people could take a sip and identify the vineyard and year. Pretty amazing. All the little descriptors they give are just shorthand for certain chemicals created during the fermentation. Here's a little article I found about it.

https://vinepair.com/articles/chemic...e-taste-smell/

It all just tastes like sour grapes to me though.

dclafleur

It got me thinking and looking into it, I'm ok with the payment model if it gets me closer to something I can practice on. I'm just figuring how much money to spend to start on a setup. I've got the computers it's just figuring out how much to spend on wheel and pedals, should I start with a shifter? I'm just trying to figure where it crosses from being a video game to a teaching simulation. $1000 I spend on simulator setup is $1000 I'm not spending on track time or shop tools.

AdamBrouillard

The primary reason to get iRacing over Assetto Corsa is if you want good online racing. For driving by yourself either will work. I typically recommend to start with one of the beginner tier wheel/pedal setups in the 300 range. You can find stuff from logitech, thrustmaster and fanatec. The biggest difference with the more expensive stuff is the forces they can generate. More powerful steering and harder brake pedals. You need a full cockpit for this though. If you have the computer to handle it, I also highly recommend getting VR like the rift or vive.

mattastick

Compare his inputs to someone like Alonso, and I can see the "smooth" moniker applying to Button.


Alonso is almost making ramp steer inputs, compared to the more gradual inputs from Button.

Then again, part of that smoothness could be the pedal usage, which we can't see from onboards, and would need the team data to actually understand and appreciate. I would consider Schumacher's throttle input smooth (from the data I've seen), but if you only watched his steering inputs, you'd think he was having seizures, his hands were moving so fast sawing at the wheel. Here's an interesting video explaining it:

dclafleur

Thank you, there's a lot of feedback out there on better but not much on good enough. My hardware is more than adequate to support VR but never had a reason to before good to know it works well for this.

AdamBrouillard

I suppose it's just a question of granularity if you wish to find differences among drivers and you could argue this until you are blue in the face. I don't like the concept of driving style though. Let's say one driver has a later, faster turn-in and another has an earlier, slower turn-in for a certain corner. Neither one of these will ever be exactly perfect though. Both drivers should constantly be fighting to find that ideal corner entry if they want to be faster.

fuggles

I recently picked up project cars 2 with an Oculus VR headset. [After having driven many hours on Forza and iRacing. ] I have to say this is the most realistic driving experience ever. Truly Amazing. With the headset you can look ahead on the track just as you would do on a real track. Something that cannot be replicated on flat screens, even three of them. I've tried. Highly recommended.

mattastick

I agree, which is why I was suggesting that maybe Button's label comes from what he's doing with the pedals. It's all speculation though, so who knows. Either way, thanks for this thread! I'm sure we'll all be learning a lot!

village idiot

What's a good way to get practice at not over-correcting?

AdamBrouillard

The crazy kart and a driveway is pretty good, but relatively easy compared to a real car. Plus it's front wheel drive so the throttle gives you the opposite response to a rear wheel drive car.

A skidpad and a very loose car is definitely better to practice oversteer control, and this can be done in a sim since most people don't have regular access to a skidpad. One of the first training exercises I have drivers do is with the mx-5 in iracing with a special very loose setup. It will only oversteer so it gives you a lot of practice. Once you get good at that, you can progress through more difficult cars. Here is a video of me doing the exercise below. You can do this in any sim that has a skidpad. You just need a car that can be setup loose enough to only oversteer.

https://youtu.be/qaay8U59-ss

Robert R1

Thanks Adam for doing this here.

I'm glad to hear about your experience and recommendations on Sim racing as I'm getting into that due to the time limitations in doing trackdays for the next couple of years.

I picked up a Rift and AC and borrowed a friends G29 wheel pedal combo just to get by. I recently tried out a full motion rig with the Fanatec CSW and Rift setup which as you'd expect was miles better than my current setup.

I was wondering what your thoughts are on a motion rig. I plan to wait for the direct drive, Fanatec Podium Series before moving to a serious pedal/wheel combo. My only concern with a motion rig is building "bad muscle memory."

I don't want to build up reactions based on false data inputs into my body that when I eventually go back to track driving, I have to unlearn.

My goal with sim racing is to crank up the immersion while keeping my skills current and or even better, learn new ones.

Happy to hear your thoughts and here's my write up on the higher end setup and limitations I found: https://www.racedepartment.com/threa.../#post-2760051

AdamBrouillard

I think a motion rig could be beneficial to training, but I haven't seen a setup I recommend that is not insanely expensive.

Realistically, I would only try to simulate bumps as it is impossible to do g-forces properly. Drivers need to be so sensitive to movement that I'd be afraid they would start cueing off of g-force cues that weren't accurate. Yaw could be possible and very beneficial, but you would need a rig that could spin 360 to do it properly. I've only seen one of these and it was not a consumer product. Yaw sensitivity is so important I would avoid ones that only partially simulate yaw by moving you left and right a few degrees.

Also, definitely stay away from any rig that moves the seat in relation to the steering wheel/pedals. That would be as if the steering wheel/pedals were not solidly mounted in your car.

I've never used one, but those bass shaker/sim vibe systems might be good for immersion without messing with any movement cues. One thing that sim racing doesn't prepare people for is the violence, noise, and vibration of a racecar.

Robert R1

A 4 post DBox solution seems the most optimal at simulating bump movement and suspension travel. The cost is for sure a premium to the point you can pick up a Spec Miata and race it for a season.

I assume you mean stay away from seat movers and only stick to motion rigs that move the whole rig?

Have you had a chance to experience a direct drive wheel? if so, what did you think?

One thing I've noticed so far in my research for a sim setup is the lack of vibration and feedback on pedals. Feedback such as; threshold braking, bite point and engine load on the throttle is first experienced through the feet long before it makes it to the hands or the butt via car reactions.

Your last point is spot on. To me, in real driving, it's just as critical to distinguish between what is essential and what is non essential feedback when your senses are constantly bombarded with vibrations, noise, tire squirm and loading up, weight transfer (to me this is huge). In the sim experiences I have, most guys are only trying to get the essential feedback that helps them go faster in insolation. This isolation is simply not possible in the real world.

I imagine the sim only guys get a real shock to the system when these real life elements kick in and they experience all this extra feedback at speed.

AdamBrouillard

Yeah, I mean you would only want a motion rig that moved everything together. I would only get one if money was no object though. I don't think simulating bumps is necessary for training, just more immersive and fun.

I haven't personally used a direct drive wheel, but I've used the fanatec clubsport wheelbase and I think that has plenty of force to simulate most cars for a reasonable cost. I would put money toward a high end set of pedals before getting a more powerful wheel. I personally have the HPP pedals and they feel better than the ones in most cars I've driven. I had the fanatec ones prior and it was a significant improvement.

village idiot

Is there a complete sim package I can buy. Monitors, seat, software, etc?

AdamBrouillard

I know there are companies out there that will set all that up for you, but you pay a serious premium for it. Buying a ready to go computer, plugging in a wheel and pedal set and getting an iracing subscription is a pretty easy way to get started though.

SouthernSon

Adam, what are your thoughts on left foot braking; worth? efficiency? how much experience to learn it?

AdamBrouillard

Left foot braking can be faster in cars that tend to oversteer on entry as it allows throttle+braking to dynamically adjust brake bias. It gives you more control options.

It can be quite time consuming to learn though and you won't see a huge benefit in every car. For the casual track day enthusiast, it's probably not worth it. For someone who wants to do whatever it takes to get faster, then go ahead and start learning it.

Unless you have almost no left foot control, I recommend to just start left foot braking your street car to get used to it. You have to decide for yourself if you have the skills to do this safely. Then try it at the track once you get good doing it on the street. I'd also advise to get very good at left foot braking by itself before trying to combine it with throttle.