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A reader suggested I start an "Ask the Coach" thread similar to the one on rennlist where people can ask driving technique questions and any and all racing coaches can provide answers. I love driving technique debate and discussion so I'll do my best to check in and answer questions as well. We'll see how much interest there is and maybe we can get a sticky on the thread.
I imagine that several will respond to this good idea in the forum when they find it. As the fellow once said, " There are no stupid questions but going over 100mph with questions in your head not asked and not answered may not be very bright."
Adam, when you get a completely green student, what few items are at the top of your list to prioritize when discussing the first session with a driver?
When I would sit right seat with a newer driver I would always have them focus on one primary thing. I would have them try to increase speed at the apex while being able to apply at least some throttle as they pass it, with the goal being to get to the understeer limit at the apex. I would ask them to try to turn the steering more from the apex until the end of the corner to test if they are at the limit yet. If the car turned in more, they were not at the limit and can increase speed. If the car won't turn more, than they've reached the limit. If they get to this point I start talking more about testing for and trying stay right at the understeer limit. I also encourage them to try to find the limit for the entire corner exit, and not track out unless the car makes them. If the student has a really powerful car I normally have them stay a gear higher than might be optimal. You want to learn understeer control before learning oversteer control. Also, don't use the curbs yet.
Many new students are very interested in learning "the line" or brake points, but until you are consistently at the limit, that doesn't matter yet. Your ideal line is determined by what your car does at the limit. Focusing on increasing apex speed and staying at the limit for the entire exit will naturally move you toward your ideal line.
I talked very little when I was in the car with someone. Generally I would only speak up if I thought they were going into a corner too fast for their abilities or to tell them they did good in a corner or reached the limit.
Perhaps a good explanation of anti-roll (sway) bar dynamics would be in order. So many drivers get this completely wrong.
I actually just had someone ask me this the other day. I guess I should mention that vehicle dynamics questions are perfectly okay too.
Anti-roll bars affect balance because of load sensitivity. For example, softening the rear bar would shift the balance toward less oversteer/more understeer because it would reduce the load transfer across the rear two tires during a corner. This also causes an increase in load transfer across the front two tires. The total weight on each pair of tires is the same, but the rear tires are now more evenly loaded so have greater potential grip due to load sensitivity. The front tires are less evenly loaded so they have less potential grip.
If tires were not load sensitive, messing around with bars, springs, and roll centers, would have no effect on balance.
You can find an article about load sensitivity through google, but basically it's the principle that the grip a tire can generate goes up with load, but at a decreasing rate. In other words, 500 lbs of load might produce 500 lbs of sideways grip, but 1000 lbs of load might only produce 900lb of grip.
Last edited by AdamBrouillard; 06-01-2018 at 11:48 AM.
I imagine that several will respond to this good idea in the forum when they find it. As the fellow once said, " There are no stupid questions but going over 100mph with questions in your head not asked and not answered may not be very bright."
Adam, when you get a completely green student, what few items are at the top of your list to prioritize when discussing the first session with a driver?
I imagine that several will respond to this good idea in the forum when they find it. As the fellow once said, " There are no stupid questions but going over 100mph with questions in your head not asked and not answered may not be very bright."
Adam, when you get a completely green student, what few items are at the top of your list to prioritize when discussing the first session with a driver?
When I would sit right seat with a newer driver I would always have them focus on one primary thing. I would have them try to increase speed at the apex while being able to apply at least some throttle as they pass it, with the goal being to get to the understeer limit at the apex. I would ask them to try to turn the steering more from the apex until the end of the corner to test if they are at the limit yet. If the car turned in more, they were not at the limit and can increase speed. If the car won't turn more, than they've reached the limit. If they get to this point I start talking more about testing for and trying stay right at the understeer limit. I also encourage them to try to find the limit for the entire corner exit, and not track out unless the car makes them. If the student has a really powerful car I normally have them stay a gear higher than might be optimal. You want to learn understeer control before learning oversteer control. Also, don't use the curbs yet.
Many new students are very interested in learning "the line" or brake points, but until you are consistently at the limit, that doesn't matter yet. Your ideal line is determined by what your car does at the limit. Focusing on increasing apex speed and staying at the limit for the entire exit will naturally move you toward your ideal line.
I talked very little when I was in the car with someone. Generally I would only speak up if I thought they were going into a corner too fast for their abilities or to tell them they did good in a corner or reached the limit.
Last edited by AdamBrouillard; 06-02-2018 at 05:56 PM.
I liked those answers so well that I just ordered 3 of your books. Breaking down the physics, another study of yours I understand, into layman terms works for me. Have you published more than the three?
Many new students are very interested in learning "the line" or brake points, but until you are consistently at the limit, that doesn't matter yet. Your ideal line is determined by what your car does at the limit. Focusing on increasing apex speed and staying at the limit for the entire exit will naturally move you toward your ideal line.
This as it is all physics, your car determines your line.
I liked those answers so well that I just ordered 3 of your books. Breaking down the physics, another study of yours I understand, into layman terms works for me. Have you published more than the three?
Just the three. Those basically started as internal documents for coaching clients and when they were turned into books, it made sense to make it a trilogy where one builds on the next. If you are looking for more reading material, we have some stuff on our site under racing basics. For some good, but lesser known vehicle dynamics reading, I often recommend to people the "chassis newsletters" by Mark Ortiz. There is a collection of them on this site. http://www.auto-ware.com/techref/lib_index.htm
I would ask them to try to turn the steering more from the apex until the end of the corner to test if they are at the limit yet. If the car turned in more, they were not at the limit and can increase speed. If the car won't turn more, than they've reached the limit.
Looking forward to this thread, thank you! Are there other "limit tests" like this one you could share? I've heard of this one and tried it, and it has worked well for me. Are there similar tests you can share on other parts of the track?
Looking forward to this thread, thank you! Are there other "limit tests" like this one you could share? I've heard of this one and tried it, and it has worked well for me. Are there similar tests you can share on other parts of the track?
Testing for the limit can be done with any combination of driver inputs (throttle, brakes, steering) depending on what part of the corner you are in. Testing for understeer is about making a driver input change and seeing if the car responds by turning more. Oversteer is just the opposite. The car turning more without a change in driver input. You'll see this constant driver input modulation when a good driver is going through a corner as they try to keep the car right at the limit. Some drivers tend to use one input more than another.
Many newer drivers don't know how to tell if they are the limit and doing the steering wheel test mid corner is an easy way to start learning what the (understeer) limit feels like. So it's good to understand what you are actually doing to keep a car at the limit, but to do all this effectively it has to become instinctual. It's essentially a balance skill that has to be trained.
Last edited by AdamBrouillard; 06-04-2018 at 11:24 AM.
So for some of us with a car like a C5 z06, oversteer is the spookiest situation, especially like say the esses at the Glen. Personally, having driven in snow for decades, the instinct is to lift abruptly, which I'm trying to refine and relearn. We all have dealt with it, but I want to perfect it to the point it's instinctive and instant--anything less I view as a vulnerable incompetence. Would you suggest smaller tracks with lots of runoff and mildly provoking it until it's mastered? Any other ideas? Thanks, I ordered Perfect Balance as what I read made a ton of sense.
So for some of us with a car like a C5 z06, oversteer is the spookiest situation, especially like say the esses at the Glen. Personally, having driven in snow for decades, the instinct is to lift abruptly, which I'm trying to refine and relearn. We all have dealt with it, but I want to perfect it to the point it's instinctive and instant--anything less I view as a vulnerable incompetence. Would you suggest smaller tracks with lots of runoff and mildly provoking it until it's mastered? Any other ideas? Thanks, I ordered Perfect Balance as what I read made a ton of sense.
If oversteer was caused by too much throttle, then a lift is appropriate. The trick is to only partially lift so the power you are giving the rear tires matches your current speed. A full lift gives you engine braking on the rear tires which is the last thing you want. Getting comfortable with this does take a lot of practice though.
At track events, using very forgiving tires can help you get more comfortable pushing the limits. Plus, as you mentioned, safe tracks with lots of runoff are good, although most track organizers get upset if you are spinning regularly so it's hard to really push your limits. Unless you have nearly constant access to a track for training or are a prodigy, it's hard to reach really high levels of control this way though. I recommend for people to get into sim racing for extra practice. If you set it up right and know what to pay attention to, the skills transfer to the real world.
Another recommendation if you don't mind looking silly in front of the neighbors, the Razer crazy cart is actually pretty darn good for practicing basic oversteer control at home. Plus they are a lot of fun. There is a bigger XL version for adults, but I bought the regular one for my kid and fit in it fine. I've used it more than he has.
Last edited by AdamBrouillard; 06-04-2018 at 04:32 PM.
Thanks, Maybe a set of very forgiving tires should be a priority. The frustrating part is that it's a skill long lost, as I used to drive the old solid lifter Corvettes year around, and never owned snow tires, just relied on posi-traction, and never got stuck. Front wheel drive has erased all that instinct.
the razor cart is cool! might be adding that to the stable. go karts are also great and kart tracks are a bit more forgiving on spins and off track. pick up a cheap kart with 10 year old tires and you'll learn oversteer quickly.
I've done skid training which is helpful but the reality is you are purposely making it break lose (very easy) and expecting it. it takes lots of seat time to react when not expecting it.
my opinion, if you are only competing against yourself with no prize in the end you should rarely if ever drive at the limit. trying to induce oversteer could result in your last time at the track. want to learn to handle unexpected oversteer buy that razor, go kart or find an empty parking lot full of snow, don't do it on track in your powerful corvette.
I am however looking forward to this thread and also ordered the books to add to my library.
Originally Posted by AdamBrouillard
If oversteer was caused by too much throttle, then a lift is appropriate. The trick is to only partially lift so the power you are giving the rear tires matches your current speed. A full lift gives you engine braking on the rear tires which is the last thing you want. Getting comfortable with this does take a lot of practice though.
At track events, using very forgiving tires can help you get more comfortable pushing the limits. Plus, as you mentioned, safe tracks with lots of runoff are good, although most track organizers get upset if you are spinning regularly so it's hard to really push your limits. Unless you have nearly constant access to a track for training or are a prodigy, it's hard to reach really high levels of control this way though. I recommend for people to get into sim racing for extra practice. If you set it up right and know what to pay attention to, the skills transfer to the real world.
Another recommendation if you don't mind looking silly in front of the neighbors, the Razer crazy cart is actually pretty darn good for practicing basic oversteer control at home. Plus they are a lot of fun. There is a bigger XL version for adults, but I bought the regular one for my kid and fit in it fine. I've used it more than he has.
I recommend for people to get into sim racing for extra practice. If you set it up right and know what to pay attention to, the skills transfer to the real world.
What do you recommend for practicing sim racing? I've been on the fence for setting up something for sim racing for a while.
I've got a question on setup and driving style that I was trying to decide on.
I'll try to cliff note it.
This last season and a half I've gotten more comfortable pushing my C5Z more and more aggressively in autocross. At the first event after putting on an adjustable front Strano sway bar, I set it to full stiff and raced it like I normally do. The first turn was INSTANT understeer.
I took a step back and tried to drive a little smoother. I did good, but also I feel like I had to dial it back a lot to not get the car going in a straight line.
Next I attend a test and tune and put the bar on 1-soft and 1-hard, giving me an inbetween. Little understeer but not bad. Since it was a TNT I changed it in the middle of the event and put it full soft to compare, and all of the understeer was removed and I could really drive more aggressive with more control. I had a really fast driver drive the car with the stiffer setting and he said it felt fine (I asked for advice on how it handled and if I should adjust it).
So my question is this, should I stiffen it up a little and learn to dial it back and be smoother? Or should I keep it on the soft setting and run the living hell out of it with more aggression, which is where I'm at now.... Pushing the car more and more to its peak at every element. I feel like if I stiffen the front and knock out a little body roll on paper it would help, but I don't think I can push the car as hard and it'll ultimately slow me down.
let's see what the coach says but here is my info. I've been sim racing for a few years. You can start with something simple like xbox to...well sky's the limit, its all in the budget. If you want to use it to help create real world situations you are going to have to spend some money. you want a steering wheel and pedals with feedback. chassis, engine, braking feed back through vibration or better yet motion. You can also get data recording, wind, sound (although ear phones are best), etc. etc.
the nice part is you can get unlimited seat time, the down side is you treat it as a game and don't really learn. I compete so I like to compete in sim as well. here is a link to help get started. there are many others. http://www.isrtv.com/
If oversteer was caused by too much throttle, then a lift is appropriate. The trick is to only partially lift so the power you are giving the rear tires matches your current speed. A full lift gives you engine braking on the rear tires which is the last thing you want. Getting comfortable with this does take a lot of practice though.
At track events, using very forgiving tires can help you get more comfortable pushing the limits. Plus, as you mentioned, safe tracks with lots of runoff are good, although most track organizers get upset if you are spinning regularly so it's hard to really push your limits. Unless you have nearly constant access to a track for training or are a prodigy, it's hard to reach really high levels of control this way though. I recommend for people to get into sim racing for extra practice. If you set it up right and know what to pay attention to, the skills transfer to the real world.
Another recommendation if you don't mind looking silly in front of the neighbors, the Razer crazy cart is actually pretty darn good for practicing basic oversteer control at home. Plus they are a lot of fun. There is a bigger XL version for adults, but I bought the regular one for my kid and fit in it fine. I've used it more than he has.
Why not autocross? I know it's less glamorous than track driving, but there's plenty of opportunity to explore the limits of your car (albeit at a lower speed and energy level), and at a test and tune, you can burn up a set of tires in a weekend on the same course, so plenty of time working on driving.
If you are at the track watching top-level, pro drivers--let's say Indy car drivers at a road course--how much can you tell just by watching them go through a particular corner? When watching teammates, can you tell which is faster and has a better technique? Some journalists give detailed track-side evaluations of drivers, and it makes me wonder if they can really see these differences or if they are just making stuff up. It's kinda like when you hear a sommelier describe wine and you wonder if there isn't some B.S. involved.
What do you recommend for practicing sim racing? I've been on the fence for setting up something for sim racing for a while.
I use iRacing for a few minor reasons, but their payment model is a bit annoying. Assetto Corsa is a great one for a single price. Let me know if you had more specific questions.
06-01-2018, 10:57 AM
Ask the coach
