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The LS6 exploded at 47K miles, about 35K of those were track miles. I have not dropped the drivetrain to see what failed. I suspect something in the middle-rear let go. No holes are directly visible from above or below.
The crate LS3 is tempting from an everything is new perspective, however, having a beefed up lower end is compelling.
I would like to keep cost reasonable, say 12K range, with a dry sump. The LS3/525 w/ ASA cam + Dry Sump is roughly in this range. The beefed up LS3 short blocks leave me in a position of having to get the cam, heads, intake, TB, etc. My preference is not to build a one-off; though the last one (LS6) worked out extremely well till it went BANG!
With respect to the Dry Sumps, it seems that the default provider here is ARE. I am a Dry Sump noob, but it appears that there are other options such as Avaid, Daily, Moroso, etc. What criteria is driving folks to ARE as the defacto Dry Sump solution; just trying to learn here.
I will certainly post my final decision(s) here, hopefully to help out C5 folks in the future.
Thanks for all the responses/suggestions thus far.
I forgot to ask how you have been doing since the last time we conversed. Did you run the Phoenix event this year? I had planned on going until my Granddaughter's HS graduation out in CA took up the weekend.
I remember some posts made several years ago by Chris Ingle who was a National Champion T1 Racer and very active forum member for a while. He is the guy I used to buy my used Kumho's from. I found one of the threads he participated in about LS3s blowing up and searched out his posts. You may find them informative when thinking about the LS3.
Bill - Blew up at Phoenix, exit of turn 1. The kids did a great job running the event, very good turnout. I guess the take away from all those links is Build another LS6 OR Get a Dry Sump
JHrinsin - I didn't pay a lot for the LS6. It came with the car and I added the GMPP Heads, cam .573/.574 with shallow ramp angles, 90 mm TB on a re-snouted LS6 intake, C6 oil galleys, C6Z lifters, CHE Trunion Kit, and, I believe, 36 lb injectors, C5R timing chain, SuperDamper.
I looked around again for the source of the external metal fragments with an endoscope...no luck, could be hiding behind the starter. Will tear things down this weekend if all goes to plan.
The dailey dry sump will cost about 1200 more than the are setup. I prefer the dailey but ARE has way better customer support. My customer went with the are system for that reason.
The ls1/6 blocks are no longer being produced. Being in a similar situation with a customers c5 we opted for the ls3 block. Used the stock ls6 crank 24x trigger wheel with 6.125 rods and forged pistons. The stock cast pistons are not up to handle rpm's of racing/hpde. The knock sensors were relocated to the outside of the block. Adaptor harness's were purchased for both knock and cam sensor. ($25 each) You will need a 1x cam sensor trigger for use with the c5. We even used the trick flow 515 hp top end kit. It ended up picking up 50 ft lbs of tq at 3500 with the added cubic in and compression.
I forgot to ask how you have been doing since the last time we conversed. Did you run the Phoenix event this year? I had planned on going until my Granddaughter's HS graduation out in CA took up the weekend.
I remember some posts made several years ago by Chris Ingle who was a National Champion T1 Racer and very active forum member for a while. He is the guy I used to buy my used Kumho's from. I found one of the threads he participated in about LS3s blowing up and searched out his posts. You may find them informative when thinking about the LS3.
You will definitely get a feel for the hazards of tracking an LS3 from his comments.
It looks like the links to individual posts in a thread don't work reliably.
Bill
The '05-09 LS2/LS3 C6 wet sump oil system was a real step backwards compared to a wet sump LS6. At least you can make a wet sump LS6 survive on the track with some aftermarket help (oil pan baffles, oil cooler and accusump). Granted a dry sump setup on any engine is the way to go if you are competing at a top tier. Now building a new Gen III engine for the C5 with the LS3 block is always an option (if its legal in your class and/or you can tune it accordingly), if you can use the extra torque without breaking anything in the drivetrain.
Bill - Blew up at Phoenix, exit of turn 1. The kids did a great job running the event, very good turnout. I guess the take away from all those links is Build another LS6 OR Get a Dry Sump
JHrinsin - I didn't pay a lot for the LS6. It came with the car and I added the GMPP Heads, cam .573/.574 with shallow ramp angles, 90 mm TB on a re-snouted LS6 intake, C6 oil galleys, C6Z lifters, CHE Trunion Kit, and, I believe, 36 lb injectors, C5R timing chain, SuperDamper.
I looked around again for the source of the external metal fragments with an endoscope...no luck, could be hiding behind the starter. Will tear things down this weekend if all goes to plan.
Best of luck with the tear down, hopefully that damage was contained and you can salvage some of the parts.
Bill, would you agree that Chris Ingles issues stemmed from oil starvation? I didnt read all of the threads, but I read probably 3 or 4 you posted. All seemed to stem from oiling.
The only other issues Ive seen with them is in the grand am series, the continental cars would bend valves if over-revved (anything over 8000) and need replacing, and they would break pistons for an unknown reason. Eventually they were allowed to run stock rods with replacement forged pistons.
We have not seen either of these failures on the crate engine LS3s our customers run, for what its worth.
After 13 years of abuse, the C5Z's LS6 finally let go spectacular fashion, got engine parts in the rear tire.
My needs are pure HDPE, no class restrictions or rules to worry about; my primary objective is reliability. I am (was) fairly fast; 2:05-2:06 at WGI w/ full stickies unimpeded.
The LS6 was putting out a touch over 500 HP (guestimate, it dynoed at 447), and a long, flat 400+ torque curve . I would like to replace it with something in the same power range, and it appears that most options come with more torque.
The LS3 seems to be the defacto replacement engine, with a dry sump. There are planty of aftermarlet engine builders that will help you part with even more cash. I have no idea if the aftermarket route makes sense for my needs.
Looking for suggestions based on experience; LS3 or other. I do my own work and am comfortable with starting from a Short Block or complete engine depending on what yields a more reliable build at reasonable cost. Other threads have prepared me for the wallet hit.
what blew up? did you spin a bearing or something more catastrophic?
Depending on what you can salvage would be my determining factor as to which way to go.
The Gen III stuff is a lot cheaper if you look for the right deal.
Bill, would you agree that Chris Ingles issues stemmed from oil starvation? I didnt read all of the threads, but I read probably 3 or 4 you posted. All seemed to stem from oiling.
The only other issues Ive seen with them is in the grand am series, the continental cars would bend valves if over-revved (anything over 8000) and need replacing, and they would break pistons for an unknown reason. Eventually they were allowed to run stock rods with replacement forged pistons.
We have not seen either of these failures on the crate engine LS3s our customers run, for what its worth.
Agreed Chris's posts seemed to be centered around oiling and the need for a dry sump with his LS3 experiences
I assume all of your customers are running some form of dry sump? Good to hear the crate engines are holding up for us HPDE guys.
Bill, would you agree that Chris Ingles issues stemmed from oil starvation? I didnt read all of the threads, but I read probably 3 or 4 you posted. All seemed to stem from oiling.
The only other issues Ive seen with them is in the grand am series, the continental cars would bend valves if over-revved (anything over 8000) and need replacing, and they would break pistons for an unknown reason. Eventually they were allowed to run stock rods with replacement forged pistons.
We have not seen either of these failures on the crate engine LS3s our customers run, for what its worth.
I agree on the oiling as that is what they were tackling. He says that using a dry sump should resolve the issue. This did happen about 9 years ago so a lot of things have improved with more options available to make the engines survive.
When I blew my LS376/525, one of the best suggestions that I heard was to buy another one and run it for two years then sell it to a street rodder. It would still have a one-year warrantee for the second owner and then go out a buy another new one. That was from Justin Abbott at ZIP Corvettes.
Cheers,
Jim
The drive train is almost out of the car. The "hole" was hiding behind the starter, #8. Probably a bad sign that a lifter is in the bottom of the engine. Once the engine is on a stand, I'll post pictures of the carnage. Still looking at options for where I go from here.
It appears that the source of failure was a busted valve spring, one is broken. The picture below is the #8 cylinder taken from above.
The replacement engine will be an LS3 build from forum vendor Golen Engine Service. Chad Golen has been great to work with and has helped my stay in my financial lane while still building an engine that I can beat on. Fortunately some of what I have, like the 90 mm intake, will be useful on the new engine. For oiling, it looks like a Dailey 4 stage will be going in. Will be awesome to be able to drive Mosport again. I had banned myself from the track because of low oil pressure when turn 2 is done right.
A 24X reluctor will be fitted to the crank so I don't have to do anything with converter boxes. Power should be in the 525-550 range with choices being made favoring reliability vs squeezing every last once of power out of the engine. Hopefully I can get another many more years out of this build. The engine should be delivered by Aug 1st. Will keep folks posted on progress.
Glad you got things figured out. One question - you mentioned the replacement engine will be LS3 based (short block or long block?) - if you are reusing your 90mm intake, what heads will you be using? Not sure, maybe I missed something.
It will be a fresh LS3 block, LS3 crank, and LS3 heads. The heads will have work done to them and the original valves/springs will be replaced with lighter/better components. Same thing with the rotating assembly, it too will be upgraded to lighter and stronger components. It is an awkward dance balancing cost vs. reliability. I certainly could build a better engine, but I too would like to be able to retire; it all comes down to responsible compromise. I will be reusing my throttle body and all accessories. I will also have many non-oiled parts from the original engine that have enough value to make them worth selling.
It appears that the source of failure was a busted valve spring, one is broken. The picture below is the #8 cylinder taken from above.
The replacement engine will be an LS3 build from forum vendor Golen Engine Service. Chad Golen has been great to work with and has helped my stay in my financial lane while still building an engine that I can beat on. Fortunately some of what I have, like the 90 mm intake, will be useful on the new engine. For oiling, it looks like a Dailey 4 stage will be going in. Will be awesome to be able to drive Mosport again. I had banned myself from the track because of low oil pressure when turn 2 is done right.
A 24X reluctor will be fitted to the crank so I don't have to do anything with converter boxes. Power should be in the 525-550 range with choices being made favoring reliability vs squeezing every last once of power out of the engine. Hopefully I can get another many more years out of this build. The engine should be delivered by Aug 1st. Will keep folks posted on progress.
What valve springs were those that failed? This was not an OEM camshaft? I am due to replace my springs in my stock cammed LS6. I had replaced the originals with GM springs...I think they were LS2 springs because I did this in 2007.
It will be a fresh LS3 block, LS3 crank, and LS3 heads. The heads will have work done to them and the original valves/springs will be replaced with lighter/better components. Same thing with the rotating assembly, it too will be upgraded to lighter and stronger components. It is an awkward dance balancing cost vs. reliability. I certainly could build a better engine, but I too would like to be able to retire; it all comes down to responsible compromise. I will be reusing my throttle body and all accessories. I will also have many non-oiled parts from the original engine that have enough value to make them worth selling.
Sounds very similar to what was done with the replacement 5.7L engine that the PO had assembled and installed in my '99 FRC. Stock nodular iron crank can handle a lot of n/a abuse and the forged rods and pistons give you a lot of head room. Going with better/lighter/strong valve train items and making sure they are matched to the camshaft is all money well spent. Add to that the dry sump setup and you should have a reliable long lasting engine that you do not have to worry or think about while having fun at the track,
I have a Golen 402 in my C5. Haven't put much time on it yet but I was super happy with the professionalism and knowledge of Chad and crew. Motor is running string so far. Good luck with the new build.
06-19-2018, 04:31 PM
