Go Back  CorvetteForum - Chevrolet Corvette Forum Discussion > General Corvette Topics > Autocrossing & Roadracing
Reload this Page >

Fed up with crap brakes. Need tips for complete overhaul

Notices
Autocrossing & Roadracing Suspension Setup for Track Corvettes, Camber/Caster Adjustments, R-Compound Tires, Race Slicks, Tips on Driving Technique, Events, Results
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Fed up with crap brakes. Need tips for complete overhaul

 
Old 07-22-2018, 11:24 AM
  #41  
NoradIV
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Member Since: Jan 2018
Location: Quebec
Posts: 113
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Sorry for being late. Here is the latest video I have.

NoradIV is offline  
Old 07-22-2018, 02:02 PM
  #42  
crimlwC6
CF Senior Member
 
crimlwC6's Avatar
 
Member Since: Feb 2011
Location: hot hot
Posts: 1,139
Received 18 Likes on 17 Posts
Default

Competition Driving mode is causing your brake problem.
crimlwC6 is offline  
Old 07-22-2018, 06:53 PM
  #43  
exracer28
CF Senior Member
 
exracer28's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2002
Location: huntsville al
Posts: 1,369
Received 16 Likes on 11 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by crimlwC6 View Post
Competition Driving mode is causing your brake problem.
Competition Mode uses the brakes to control the car.

exracer28 is offline  
Old 07-23-2018, 09:08 AM
  #44  
NoradIV
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Member Since: Jan 2018
Location: Quebec
Posts: 113
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Alright, today is track day. I'll try turning it off.
NoradIV is offline  
Old 07-23-2018, 02:12 PM
  #45  
Todd TCE
Supporting Vendor
 
Todd TCE's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2008
Location: tempe Arizona
Posts: 2,024
Received 71 Likes on 63 Posts
Default

Budget minded options should include the Wilwood Aer6 front caliper kit combined with the FNSL4 rear caliper kit.








What's that you ask? These are complete four corner caliper only kits (pads and ss flex lines included) that replace your oe calipers with much larger and more functional units. They are then coupled with 13.4 or 14" (14 being the preferred choice for track day use) one piece rotors of your brand choice up front and 13" size oe rotors out back. *TCE also offers an alternative allowing the fit of the C6 Z06 13.4" rear for a small up charge.

Combined with the 14/13" rotors these calipers will off you the primary gains and benefits of any full BBK but at a lower cost due to the budget rotors used. Those benefits include: greater tactical feel, less fade (based in part on the pad compound of choice) better heat dissipation, larger pads, longer pad life and overall improvement to the braking efficiency. Missing of course are the 2pc rotors found on our more costly kits and those of other brands as well. Yes you'll give up the lighter 2pc design, improved cooling from properly vented discs and the higher quality materials found in nearly every BBK. What you won't miss is the near, (or more) $1000 per axle they cost.

These kits allow you to run to Autozone for a replacement if necessary. Or....pick up a bling set of drilled and slotted for the street and swap in the non drilled ones for the track day. Easy-peasy and spares in the trunk.

Like their big brother kits these calipers will offer you the same pad choices from street to hard core race compounds. We'd clearly suggest that you change them for each need of course for proper wear and results. Race pads are for the track....street pads are for the street. There's a reason it's that way.

Installation is a snap: the radial mount bracket fit directly to the front and rear spindles, calipers slip onto the studs. SS flex hoses (included) finish the work and the entire system installed, bled and bed in probably....less than 2hrs.

Best part? You can get all that (less the race compound pads) for under $1700.

Is this the best option for your car/needs? Maybe not...depends on how serious you are about the track day needs. We can move up the food chain and match the high tech and more race derived product of others as well. Just costs more money. You can move to full 14" front and rear kits with Aero calipers....full on race kits with insulated pistons and floating rotors....hit me up with any questions on these options if you like.


.
__________________
TCE
Your one stop...for Wilwood Brakes!
480.967.7901



* CUSTOM * Corvette * Lightning * Impala SS * Focus ST * Marauder * 350/370Z * MINI * Challenger * Crown Vic * Super Duty * Flex/SHO * Mustang * WRX * ...and more!

Last edited by Todd TCE; 07-23-2018 at 02:13 PM.
Todd TCE is offline  
Old 07-23-2018, 02:29 PM
  #46  
[email protected]
Supporting Vendor
 
JRitt@essex's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2009
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,213
Received 176 Likes on 123 Posts
Default

NoradIV,

Based on your planned horsepower (500 WHP) and frequency of usage (every monday and 4-5 other events per year), I'd suggest one of our 355mm front brake kits. I can't imagine our 325mm Sprint Kit fading on you, but I have a feeling that you likely won't get the wear rates you're seeking. Even if it's a short track, a weekly dose of track miles is going to eat up consumables (pads, discs, and fluid). The larger 355mm disc is going to spread the heat out over a larger area, and they tend to flow a bit more air than the 325mm discs. Our 372mm kit is going to be overkill for your needs. The 355mm kits weigh 4 lbs. less per side vs. our 372mm systems, and that track is not going to put any stress on our 355mm setups. The 355mm kits are also large enough that you won't have to tinker with spindle ducts. The two setups below are what I'd recommend. Either will do the job for you. Save your money and skip the rear setup...just run good race pads in the back to match the fronts. I'll say this one last time in case I wasn't clear You will be far better off with the best front kit you can afford vs. going with a front and rear kit that costs the same money.

https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...mm-c5-corvette

https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...c5-corvette147

Our systems aren't cheap, but they will do everything you need them to do, and you won't have to worry about messing with your brakes anymore. No more missed sessions, bleeding in the pits, rebuilding calipers, constantly swapping pads and discs, etc.

Thanks, and let us know if we can be of further assistance.
JRitt@essex is online now  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:45 AM
  #47  
NoradIV
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Member Since: Jan 2018
Location: Quebec
Posts: 113
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Alright, just did two sessions yesterday with nanny completely off. Pedal feel is a bit better, but not much. However, I feel I am ready to keep on driving with all assists off, because I was able to have a little more control over the car; trail braking was definately easier and being able to pivot the car on the front wheels was allowing me to get the car through the corner a bit faster, reducing the amount of braking needed.

Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
NoradIV,

Based on your planned horsepower (500 WHP) and frequency of usage (every monday and 4-5 other events per year), I'd suggest one of our 355mm front brake kits. I can't imagine our 325mm Sprint Kit fading on you, but I have a feeling that you likely won't get the wear rates you're seeking. Even if it's a short track, a weekly dose of track miles is going to eat up consumables (pads, discs, and fluid). The larger 355mm disc is going to spread the heat out over a larger area, and they tend to flow a bit more air than the 325mm discs. Our 372mm kit is going to be overkill for your needs. The 355mm kits weigh 4 lbs. less per side vs. our 372mm systems, and that track is not going to put any stress on our 355mm setups. The 355mm kits are also large enough that you won't have to tinker with spindle ducts. The two setups below are what I'd recommend. Either will do the job for you. Save your money and skip the rear setup...just run good race pads in the back to match the fronts. I'll say this one last time in case I wasn't clear You will be far better off with the best front kit you can afford vs. going with a front and rear kit that costs the same money.

https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...mm-c5-corvette

https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...c5-corvette147

Our systems aren't cheap, but they will do everything you need them to do, and you won't have to worry about messing with your brakes anymore. No more missed sessions, bleeding in the pits, rebuilding calipers, constantly swapping pads and discs, etc.

Thanks, and let us know if we can be of further assistance.
Sorry man, but you guys are asking 7k CAD for two calipers, two disks (which I will need to get from you in the future for replacement, at 1100$ a pair) and some hardware. That is not even including pads. I just don't have this kind of money. Is your kit compatible with one piece disks? How would just 2 calipers and hardware go for?

@Todd, How does your stuff compares to OEM brakes? Also, what is the difference between 2 large pistons and 4 smaller ones, or the bigger 6 pistons? I do not need more braking power, but better head dissipation.

What pads are your kit using? Whatever is compatible with factory C6 brakes?

Do you have a link to a kit for front only on 14" disks? (I do not need disks, pads and SS lines).

Last edited by NoradIV; 07-24-2018 at 09:46 AM.
NoradIV is offline  
Old 07-24-2018, 01:58 PM
  #48  
[email protected]
Supporting Vendor
 
JRitt@essex's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2009
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,213
Received 176 Likes on 123 Posts
Default

As mentioned by others, definitely keep all of the driving aids turned off. While we haven't seen them impact the front all that much, rear wear can increase dramatically with yaw control turned on.

Originally Posted by NoradIV View Post
Sorry man, but you guys are asking 7k CAD for two calipers, two disks (which I will need to get from you in the future for replacement, at 1100$ a pair) and some hardware. That is not even including pads. I just don't have this kind of money. Is your kit compatible with one piece disks? How would just 2 calipers and hardware go for?
Our CP9660/355mm kit is $4199 USD, which is $5527 CAD at today's rate. That is everything but pads for the front. We offer a set of discounted Ferodo Racing pads at $200 US for the front. When the time comes for new iron rings (you keep the aluminum centers), they are $359 USD ($472 CAD) each. Some of our customers get at minimum a season out of a set, others multiple seasons if they aren't taxed too hard (there are a million variables in predicting wear). We don't sell the brackets and hats separately for the platforms support. We did that early on in our brake kit program, and it caused all sorts of problems.The primary reason is that we believe we have the experience and knowledge to put together the best system on the market. The other big one is that when someone has a problem, they call us to fix it. If they have a mish-mash of parts on the car, we have no idea what we're even dealing with it. That makes it impossible for us to provide the level of support our customers expect. We don't want to put them in that position.

Also, the disc is a critical component in the system. If the discs are junk, the rest of the system may as well be also. If the disc runs cool, the pads run cool, the pistons run cool, the and the fluid runs cool. If the disc is running hot, so does everything else 'downstream' of the disc. All of the components work together to produce results. As you've already found out in several ways with your OEM brakes, the system is only as good as the weakest link, and the discs are one of the foundations of a proper track system.

Again, our systems aren't cheap, but they get the job done. Ask any of the hundreds of people we've helped on this forum, and they'll likely tell you our brake kit was one of the best modifications they've ever done for their car with regards to track duty. As I mentioned previously, you will unfortunately have to spend money on brakes if you want to track your Vette. There's no way around it. You can either spend it up front, or spend it over time in bits and pieces. With our system, you save money on the consumables during your ownership period, and most people find that our kits pay for themselves in consumable savings after a couple of years. Also keep in mind that our kits sell for 65-70% of their new price on the used market. That means when you sell you car, you get a nice chunk of your investment back.

If you want to be easier on your brakes, don't add any horsepower, suspension mods, or aero, and run narrower, lower grip street tires. Five hundred at the wheels with sticky 315's at all corners is a recipe for eating brakes. It's either that, or the other answer nobody likes to hear...Miata!


JRitt@essex is online now  
Old 07-24-2018, 02:26 PM
  #49  
Nowanker
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Nov 2013
Location: SF Bay Area Ca
Posts: 1,466
Received 126 Likes on 110 Posts
Default

Norad, I hate to bring up the obvious, but tracking a car is costly. Even the cheapest car with the least expensive consumables (Miata?) is stupidly expensive. Factor in the consumables cost on a Corvette, and it's just plain ridiculous.
Trying to shave nickels while doing it will be an exercise in frustration.
If you're committed to it for the duration, there will be some upfront costs...
Nowanker is offline  
Old 07-24-2018, 02:28 PM
  #50  
[email protected]
Supporting Vendor
 
JRitt@essex's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2009
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,213
Received 176 Likes on 123 Posts
Default

Please allow me to try and get my point across another way...I went back and re-read your initial post. You tried pads that should have a high enough maximum temperature threshold for the track you're running (PFC11). You tried a brake fluid that has a boiling point that should have no trouble handling the track you're running (SRF). You're still getting fluid fade/mushy pedal. That tells us that your fluid is getting too hot. Why is it getting too hot? The discs are at the core of your problem. When the discs are running too hot, that heat is transferred through the pads, into the caliper pistons, caliper body, and the fluid, causing it to boil.

The discs A) Can't get enough or aren't flowing enough air to cool adequately between stops or B) Don't have enough thermal mass to store the heat you're converting from their spinning motion into heat or C) Both of the above. Most likely, it's both of the above. As noted by others one way to try and bring your disc temps down is via brake ducts. If the disc design isn't particularly conducive to airflow however (which the OEM discs are not), then ducts aren't going to be terribly effective. It would be like trying to spray a garden hose through a drinking straw. The discs just can't accept and disperse a large amount of air due to design limitations. As such, brake ducts are not terribly effective on OEM-style discs. They're also a pain because it's tough to find good air on the front of the car and pipe it back to the proper location and dump it inside the discs, the tires rub the ducts in the wheel wells, the wires hang out, you constantly have to duct tape them...a whole bunch of reasons why brake ducts on production cars are the devil.

A proper racing disc is typically larger than a stock disc to provide a larger heat sink. As mentioned earlier though, proper racing discs are about efficiency. A high vane count and shaped/directional vanes allow the disc to draw more cooling air and evacuate heat (via convection...thick of the air as a fluid), as does a larger surface area (which allows for increased radiation). A disc with these characteristics is going to run cooler, transmitting far less heat to the pads.

Once the heat is in the pads, it starts to creep into the pistons. A proper racing caliper uses stainless steel pistons to slow/reduce heat transfer to the fluid. Ours have little vents on the edge to allow cooling air to get inside them and behind the pad backing plate, helping even further with cooling. The Radi-CAL caliper body is also designed like a skeleton to allow as much cooling air as possible to flow through and around the caliper, further reducing the caliper body temps and the temp of the fluid inside of it.

Again, it all works together in a chain. If you keep OEM discs, they're going to be running hot. They aren't big enough OR efficient enough, or both. Since they aren't floating, they will have a propensity to distort/cone and crack when they get really hot. That means you'll be burning through discs at a nice clip. If the discs are running super hot, the pads are going to be running super hot. That means you'll be burning through pads at an accelerated rate, and they will also be at risk of pad fade if they're running too hot (the pedal stays firm, but the car doesn't slow down). If you put nice calipers with stainless steel pistons on those uber-hot discs, it may solve your fluid boiling issue, but it's not going to solve the root of the problem. IMO, that's a band-aid solution.

Hopefully the breakdown above makes more sense. Thanks for listening to me ramble!

Last edited by [email protected]; 07-24-2018 at 02:32 PM.
JRitt@essex is online now  
Old 07-24-2018, 03:02 PM
  #51  
exracer28
CF Senior Member
 
exracer28's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2002
Location: huntsville al
Posts: 1,369
Received 16 Likes on 11 Posts
Default

Factory brakes will last if the driver manages his equipment. $6000 for track day front brakes does not make any sense. Hell Willwood has an set of calipers that were made for C5/6 cars and they list less than a grand and DBA two piece rotors can be had on sale here on the forum for less than Tire Rack or other vendors. Can you buy better stuff sure you can but a good driver will manage his car to last the event. I drive long short track races sometimes 200 laps or more on 3/8 and 1/2 mile tracks and we have time for gas and tires so the equipment has to be managed. Anyone can go out and overheat the car's tires or brakes in a few laps but a good driver knows how to drive fast without causing premature equipment problems. Even in La La land movie "Days of Thunder" they used that as an example of a non driver wearing things out and running out of tires and brakes before other drivers required tires. It is a part of the learning process and you are the only person that can make a difference. The drivers skills and knowledges make him a driver and not just an occupant behind the wheel. Know your car and understand what each part does and what each switch position means. Things like trailing braking may have a place in some situations but over use with, drum roll please, overheat your brakes. Today there is an amazing amount of knowledge available to anyone that has the desire to and will take the time to improve. The old T1 setup using stock brakes were manageable as long as there was a driver that knew how to make them last a race and some lost brakes after a few laps. Have you asked any of the professional races about making the brakes last longer? Not vendors because they just want to make money which is their right but it also adds bias to their answer. Ask Joe or one of the guys at Phoenix how John did as well as he did with CRAP factory brakes. When your only complaint is pad taper then you are closer to learning.
exracer28 is offline  
Old 07-24-2018, 03:32 PM
  #52  
mikehimself
CF Member
 
Member Since: Aug 2008
Posts: 80
Received 6 Likes on 6 Posts
Default

I agree with this guy, especially on the operator vs driver point.
Originally Posted by exracer28 View Post
Factory brakes will last if the driver manages his equipment. $6000 for track day front brakes does not make any sense. Hell Willwood has an set of calipers that were made for C5/6 cars and they list less than a grand and DBA two piece rotors can be had on sale here on the forum for less than Tire Rack or other vendors. Can you buy better stuff sure you can but a good driver will manage his car to last the event. I drive long short track races sometimes 200 laps or more on 3/8 and 1/2 mile tracks and we have time for gas and tires so the equipment has to be managed. Anyone can go out and overheat the car's tires or brakes in a few laps but a good driver knows how to drive fast without causing premature equipment problems. Even in La La land movie "Days of Thunder" they used that as an example of a non driver wearing things out and running out of tires and brakes before other drivers required tires. It is a part of the learning process and you are the only person that can make a difference. The drivers skills and knowledges make him a driver and not just an occupant behind the wheel. Know your car and understand what each part does and what each switch position means. Things like trailing braking may have a place in some situations but over use with, drum roll please, overheat your brakes. Today there is an amazing amount of knowledge available to anyone that has the desire to and will take the time to improve. The old T1 setup using stock brakes were manageable as long as there was a driver that knew how to make them last a race and some lost brakes after a few laps. Have you asked any of the professional races about making the brakes last longer? Not vendors because they just want to make money which is their right but it also adds bias to their answer. Ask Joe or one of the guys at Phoenix how John did as well as he did with CRAP factory brakes. When your only complaint is pad taper then you are closer to learning.
That looks like a really fun track. If I had an unlimited budget I would do a 4 corner Essex (AP) setup for all of the reasons mentioned in his post. They have a technically solid and well engineered product. Unfortunately I am constrained by reality to be a budget track-goer. The C6Z06 calipers and rotors bolt onto a C5 with the use 18" wheels (and maybe spacers) in the front. Centric blank rotors last about half a season for the front before they heat crack. The rears rotors last much longer. The cost is ~$70 each US.
Amazon Amazon

The Raysbestos ST43 pads need to be replaced every 15 or so track days. Because they are padlets I can move them to the rear. A friend let me try his powerstop budget pads, and they wear much faster but they are cheap. https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ds-review.html

The endurance racers like chump and lemons use Dunlop Star Spec tires, which have worked well for me. My car is setup with rear 18" Z06 wheels on all four corners. The tires last forever and the handling is neutral. NT01's are faster but not worth the extra cost in my opinion. I have been extremely happy with this setup for the past four years on my barely modified LS1. Some of this may go out the window with more power or grip.
mikehimself is offline  
Old 07-24-2018, 03:34 PM
  #53  
Fulton 1
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
Fulton 1's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 355
Received 19 Likes on 13 Posts
Default

Cost is subjective, but IMO the Essex/AP kits actually represent a hell of a value considering what you get in the process. Sure, you're paying a bit more than some other options, but you're getting a lot in the process. Remember that these are engineered and tested packages and not just a collection of components thrown together. Combine that with excellent customer support (look at what Jeff has contributed in this thread alone - if you do a search you'll find this is a pattern). Over the years I've sent Jeff emails with random questions or to get his recommendations and he ALWAYS responds quickly, honestly, and with tremendous detail.

If nothing else, take a few minutes and read up on the Radi-Cal design (I believe you can find a good summary on the Essex site or it may have been posted on this forum somewhere at one point). Its an impressive piece of hardware.

I'll wrap this up with a small example (one that many will likely dismiss as insignificant, but based on experience and my line of work I have a great appreciation for detailed and complete technical content especially when clearly presented) and it's the install manual (sort of an owner's packet, really) that you get with an Essex brake kit. This includes a list, itemized by part number, of every nut, bolt, bracket, and part in the kit with two inspection buy-offs. I've never had an incorrect part shipped nor a part missing and if you need a replacement part you know exactly what's needed - no guesswork. There's even a little tube of red loctite and a fresh set of crush washers in there . You get a detailed install manual with high-quality color pictures, well-written step-by-step install and break-in instructions - complete with proper torque specs and install precautions. These are not just parts thrown in a box.

Sometimes there are times where the intangibles justify the expenditure. Its up to the individual to decide what that trade-off is. For me and for many other happy customers the Essex parts are an easy decision. Heck, I probably spent enough money in C5/C6 calipers, stock rotors, and other band-aids to purchase one of Jeff's Sprint kits lol.
Fulton 1 is offline  
The following 3 users liked this post by Fulton 1:
[email protected] (07-24-2018), NoradIV (07-24-2018), Todd TCE (07-24-2018)
Old 07-24-2018, 04:18 PM
  #54  
93Polo
CF Senior Member
 
93Polo's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 1999
Location: Guinness Its whats for B'fast JAWGA
Posts: 30,710
Received 146 Likes on 139 Posts
CI 3-4-5-9 Veteran
Default

Originally Posted by Fulton 1 View Post
Cost is subjective, but IMO the Essex/AP kits actually represent a hell of a value considering what you get in the process. Sure, you're paying a bit more than some other options, but you're getting a lot in the process. Remember that these are engineered and tested packages and not just a collection of components thrown together. Combine that with excellent customer support (look at what Jeff has contributed in this thread alone - if you do a search you'll find this is a pattern). Over the years I've sent Jeff emails with random questions or to get his recommendations and he ALWAYS responds quickly, honestly, and with tremendous detail.

If nothing else, take a few minutes and read up on the Radi-Cal design (I believe you can find a good summary on the Essex site or it may have been posted on this forum somewhere at one point). Its an impressive piece of hardware.

I'll wrap this up with a small example (one that many will likely dismiss as insignificant, but based on experience and my line of work I have a great appreciation for detailed and complete technical content especially when clearly presented) and it's the install manual (sort of an owner's packet, really) that you get with an Essex brake kit. This includes a list, itemized by part number, of every nut, bolt, bracket, and part in the kit with two inspection buy-offs. I've never had an incorrect part shipped nor a part missing and if you need a replacement part you know exactly what's needed - no guesswork. There's even a little tube of red loctite and a fresh set of crush washers in there . You get a detailed install manual with high-quality color pictures, well-written step-by-step install and break-in instructions - complete with proper torque specs and install precautions. These are not just parts thrown in a box.

Sometimes there are times where the intangibles justify the expenditure. Its up to the individual to decide what that trade-off is. For me and for many other happy customers the Essex parts are an easy decision. Heck, I probably spent enough money in C5/C6 calipers, stock rotors, and other band-aids to purchase one of Jeff's Sprint kits lol.


Further I don't mean to be negative but budget keeps being discussed. 500rwhp is not cheap and likely comes with a stroker motor.

I still recommend picking up an Essex T1 kit used. The T1 kit holds up pretty well with a heads and cam car. You will have to be patient to find a kit used but it is a great kit and if you do get to the 500rwhp goal, the kit can be sold with likely little depreciation and you can upgrade to a 14" BBK. It is nearly August many will start their winter upgrade in a couple of months.
93Polo is offline  
Old 07-24-2018, 04:37 PM
  #55  
Todd TCE
Supporting Vendor
 
Todd TCE's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2008
Location: tempe Arizona
Posts: 2,024
Received 71 Likes on 63 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by NoradIV View Post

@Todd, How does your stuff compares to OEM brakes? Also, what is the difference between 2 large pistons and 4 smaller ones, or the bigger 6 pistons? I do not need more braking power, but better head dissipation.

What pads are your kit using? Whatever is compatible with factory C6 brakes?

Do you have a link to a kit for front only on 14" disks? (I do not need disks, pads and SS lines).

The Wilwood factory kits have proven to be equally effective and more at braking no doubt. Comparing however is subjective like any purchase. If you're expecting to shave 20ft off you stopping distance with any BBK you may be missing the point. Maximum braking is simply the point of lock up. How you get there is a math equation of diameter or torque, clamping or piston area, and Coefficient of Friction or the pad compound. Larger rotors use more leverage and thus need less of the other two and extend the life of the rotors and pads. GM knows that also this the C6 14" format with the PBR six pots.

The piston count is less important than the total area....1, 2, 4, 6, 8 even 12 doesn't really mean a lot despite looking great in your forum signature...lol The real issue is body size relative to the rotor diameter and the need for a taller pad shape then spreading the same forces over the larger surface. All Corvette front brakes hover in the 4sq" area realm despite the number of pistons. As the caliper has to grow to fit the rotor we move from 4 to 6 to make it work better AND to control the wear rate of the pad by positioning forces at localized places on the lager pads. Generally the smaller pistons lead, the larger pistons follow to help overcome the initial bite and boundary layer developing between the pad and rotor. The short answer here is "no" more pistons is not a clear indicator of improved stopping.

The down side here is that the overall quality of those parts is simply "oe spec" meaning....well, inexpensive. The wow factor of padlettes and drilled rotors is lost on the more true track user. The pads are expensive, difficult to replace and the caliper arguably not the most overengineered cast aluminum part. The rotors, even without holes, don't flow air like they should. *Did they ever even cast the "other side" correctly? Meaning the same one is running the wrong way on one side. The design of the 2pc rotor shave a huge chunk of rotating mass from the rotor aiding braking, acceleration and corning forces. Materials quality; better iron matrix and a forged caliper body make longer life and more robust parts.

The Caliper kit simply omits the rotors (no we don't supply them anyhow) and keeps the caliper benefits but on a rotor of your choice. Pads supplied are an elevated street compound called BP20. Don't like the wilwood pads? (don't know why you wouldn't we sell hundreds of the very popular Poly H pad for the track) Rest easy as others have the 6617 pad plate in a variety of compounds. SS flex lines are included and yes you will need them so keep the old ones with the PBR calipers. You should expect a firmer and more responsive pedal feel with the calipers, easier and less expensive pad changes and possibly a bit lower caliper operating temp with thing such as thermlock pistons or Ti heat shields installed.

More info directly from Wilwood can be had here: https://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Br...emno=140-12629

Buying and optional formats of 4X or other kits for the car can be found here: http://www.tceperformanceproducts.co...te-c6/kits-36/
*C5 and C6 are the same but for the ss flex line chassis fittings.
__________________
TCE
Your one stop...for Wilwood Brakes!
480.967.7901



* CUSTOM * Corvette * Lightning * Impala SS * Focus ST * Marauder * 350/370Z * MINI * Challenger * Crown Vic * Super Duty * Flex/SHO * Mustang * WRX * ...and more!

Last edited by Todd TCE; 07-24-2018 at 04:38 PM.
Todd TCE is offline  
Old 07-24-2018, 04:44 PM
  #56  
Todd TCE
Supporting Vendor
 
Todd TCE's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2008
Location: tempe Arizona
Posts: 2,024
Received 71 Likes on 63 Posts
Default

And I'll echo the comments above, while not for everyone, the Essex parts are very well regarded and Jeff is an outstanding asset to the business and the community.

If we all bought, sold, used or liked the same things it would be a pretty boring world. It's what makes our sport enjoyable.
Todd TCE is offline  
The following users liked this post:
[email protected] (07-25-2018)
Old 07-24-2018, 05:18 PM
  #57  
Joshboody
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Apr 2004
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 647
Received 29 Likes on 27 Posts
Default

My experience with brakes.
Basically stock-ish LS1 on 315 NT01s

stock brakes... stopped the car fine but longer and longer pedal due to taper (both radial and axial taper)
Used WW narrow SL6 with 13" 2pc rotors... less taper but still tapered with pedal longer throughout a track day (mainly radial taper)
New WW 17mm Aero6 using 14" c6z rotors... still some taper (axial), but much more solid than above. This is the lowest cost Aero6 caliper kit at 900-ish

My brakes could be more solid, but sticking with what I have. There was a lot of thinking, troubleshooting, changing parts, worrying, etc in my upgrades... I started multiple brake threads over the years. Could have been better off paying more in the beginning... but I learned a lot
Joshboody is offline  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:15 PM
  #58  
NoradIV
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Member Since: Jan 2018
Location: Quebec
Posts: 113
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Nowanker View Post
Norad, I hate to bring up the obvious, but tracking a car is costly. Even the cheapest car with the least expensive consumables (Miata?) is stupidly expensive. Factor in the consumables cost on a Corvette, and it's just plain ridiculous.
Trying to shave nickels while doing it will be an exercise in frustration.
If you're committed to it for the duration, there will be some upfront costs...
I was waiting for this one. "Track is expensive, get over it" comment. I was well aware of that before I even bought my C5. You are right. 4500$ vs 1700$. Total nickels here.

I had a 40k$ budget back in january for a track car. I am down to 0 right now. I can figure out that an average of 5000$ is a lot of money, and the money I had aside for this is now dry.

When you go to a restaurant, do you buy the most expensive item on the menu? Do you put 91 octane in a car that is rated for 87 just because it's "better"?

I build computers as a sideline. I see plenty of people just dropping in a 600$ processor in their rig where a 200$ i5 would be just as good for their needs; I see plenty of people building computers for like 3k, where I build computers for half the price that will perform just as good. There is no point putting giant brakes if I am going to stick with street rubber.

My point is, just buying the most expensive part available is one way to go. Searching for something that will do as much of a job for less money is another way to go.

There is plenty of options suggested here, which I will look into. In spring, I will have about 5000$. 2000 of this will go for tires, another 1000 for brake pads. I was hoping I could squeeze the BBK in the extra 2k left. I figured, 2 calipers and hardware couldn't be that expensive, right?

On this budget, looks like by streching a bit, I could fit the wilwood kit. For the essex one, well, I could just not race next year at all, and have the money by spring 2020, but seat time > BBK.

If I had a million dollar, I would just go for the best. Unfortunately, I still have to eat, so I'll buy what I can affoard.

Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Hopefully the breakdown above makes more sense. Thanks for listening to me ramble!
No, you thank you for taking your precious time and pacience to explain a stubborn dude how things work. I really appreciate everything you stated, and I will absolutely keep your kits in mind when its time to purchase. So far, I'll finish the season with factory stuff. Thanks to your explanation, I'll upgrade the cooling and upgrade my disks (which are cheapo bremsens) to something a little more decent and pile up money until I decide what I buy.

Just for your information, you have to add the communist import duty to everything coming in. I had also factored a sales tax and shipping (didn't know if you guys had one). This is not your fault, but I have to stick to a budget.

Originally Posted by exracer28 View Post
Factory brakes will last if the driver manages his equipment. $6000 for track day front brakes does not make any sense. Hell Willwood has an set of calipers that were made for C5/6 cars and they list less than a grand and DBA two piece rotors can be had on sale here on the forum for less than Tire Rack or other vendors. Can you buy better stuff sure you can but a good driver will manage his car to last the event. I drive long short track races sometimes 200 laps or more on 3/8 and 1/2 mile tracks and we have time for gas and tires so the equipment has to be managed. Anyone can go out and overheat the car's tires or brakes in a few laps but a good driver knows how to drive fast without causing premature equipment problems. Even in La La land movie "Days of Thunder" they used that as an example of a non driver wearing things out and running out of tires and brakes before other drivers required tires. It is a part of the learning process and you are the only person that can make a difference. The drivers skills and knowledges make him a driver and not just an occupant behind the wheel. Know your car and understand what each part does and what each switch position means. Things like trailing braking may have a place in some situations but over use with, drum roll please, overheat your brakes. Today there is an amazing amount of knowledge available to anyone that has the desire to and will take the time to improve. The old T1 setup using stock brakes were manageable as long as there was a driver that knew how to make them last a race and some lost brakes after a few laps. Have you asked any of the professional races about making the brakes last longer? Not vendors because they just want to make money which is their right but it also adds bias to their answer. Ask Joe or one of the guys at Phoenix how John did as well as he did with CRAP factory brakes. When your only complaint is pad taper then you are closer to learning.
I have read a couple times here about "racing within your car's capabilities" and I am trying to keep that as my main goal. I absolutely love that concept. It's not because your car can deliver a certain amount of performance now that it can sustain this for a whole session. I have done this a couple times where I would rev beyond the peak hp (5800 rpm I think?), where I usually shift, just to get that little more that is needed to pass someone. Then, I would keep my normal shift points.

This is easy with the engine. Not so much with braking. I am trying to improve that, and as I stated earlier, I will finish the season with the current setup in order to work on this. Having purchased the car in january, and started being on the track for the first time in april, that is a steep climb.

I have never done any track before, and I am starting with a C5, so yea, Its a lot to handle.

Now, before you suggest I step down to something less, don't waste your time, it ain't gonna happen. If it doesn't have a V8, I ain't racin it.

Originally Posted by Fulton 1 View Post
Cost is subjective, but IMO the Essex/AP kits actually represent a hell of a value considering what you get in the process. Sure, you're paying a bit more than some other options, but you're getting a lot in the process. Remember that these are engineered and tested packages and not just a collection of components thrown together. Combine that with excellent customer support (look at what Jeff has contributed in this thread alone - if you do a search you'll find this is a pattern). Over the years I've sent Jeff emails with random questions or to get his recommendations and he ALWAYS responds quickly, honestly, and with tremendous detail.

If nothing else, take a few minutes and read up on the Radi-Cal design (I believe you can find a good summary on the Essex site or it may have been posted on this forum somewhere at one point). Its an impressive piece of hardware.

I'll wrap this up with a small example (one that many will likely dismiss as insignificant, but based on experience and my line of work I have a great appreciation for detailed and complete technical content especially when clearly presented) and it's the install manual (sort of an owner's packet, really) that you get with an Essex brake kit. This includes a list, itemized by part number, of every nut, bolt, bracket, and part in the kit with two inspection buy-offs. I've never had an incorrect part shipped nor a part missing and if you need a replacement part you know exactly what's needed - no guesswork. There's even a little tube of red loctite and a fresh set of crush washers in there . You get a detailed install manual with high-quality color pictures, well-written step-by-step install and break-in instructions - complete with proper torque specs and install precautions. These are not just parts thrown in a box.

Sometimes there are times where the intangibles justify the expenditure. Its up to the individual to decide what that trade-off is. For me and for many other happy customers the Essex parts are an easy decision. Heck, I probably spent enough money in C5/C6 calipers, stock rotors, and other band-aids to purchase one of Jeff's Sprint kits lol.
"Sometimes there are times where the intangibles justify the expenditure."

You and I agree on this. Knowledge is worth a lot, and quality is not something that can be measured, only felt. Proper documentation, a knowledgeable person the other side of the phone, and a no-hassle kit is worth a lot of dollars to me, specially since I have been trying to install the totally incomplete DRM transmission/differential "kit".

I'll read the information available on their website.
NoradIV is offline  
Old 07-24-2018, 08:56 PM
  #59  
Nowanker
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Nov 2013
Location: SF Bay Area Ca
Posts: 1,466
Received 126 Likes on 110 Posts
Default

I can appreciate the dilemma. I've been tracking and racing steadily since '97, not financially 'well off', and trying diligently to contain costs.
Every time I cheap out trying to save a buck, I wind up buying the right thing anyway, after throwing away that first 'bargain'.
Not sayin' you need a $4500 brake kit, but with quality, costs tend to go up...
Nowanker is offline  
The following users liked this post:
[email protected] (07-25-2018)
Old 07-25-2018, 12:22 PM
  #60  
[email protected]
Supporting Vendor
 
JRitt@essex's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2009
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,213
Received 176 Likes on 123 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by exracer28 View Post
Factory brakes will last if the driver manages his equipment. $6000 for track day front brakes does not make any sense. Hell Willwood has an set of calipers that were made for C5/6 cars and they list less than a grand and DBA two piece rotors can be had on sale here on the forum for less than Tire Rack or other vendors. Can you buy better stuff sure you can but a good driver will manage his car to last the event. I drive long short track races sometimes 200 laps or more on 3/8 and 1/2 mile tracks and we have time for gas and tires so the equipment has to be managed. Anyone can go out and overheat the car's tires or brakes in a few laps but a good driver knows how to drive fast without causing premature equipment problems. Even in La La land movie "Days of Thunder" they used that as an example of a non driver wearing things out and running out of tires and brakes before other drivers required tires. It is a part of the learning process and you are the only person that can make a difference. The drivers skills and knowledges make him a driver and not just an occupant behind the wheel. Know your car and understand what each part does and what each switch position means. Things like trailing braking may have a place in some situations but over use with, drum roll please, overheat your brakes. Today there is an amazing amount of knowledge available to anyone that has the desire to and will take the time to improve. The old T1 setup using stock brakes were manageable as long as there was a driver that knew how to make them last a race and some lost brakes after a few laps. Have you asked any of the professional races about making the brakes last longer? Not vendors because they just want to make money which is their right but it also adds bias to their answer. Ask Joe or one of the guys at Phoenix how John did as well as he did with CRAP factory brakes. When your only complaint is pad taper then you are closer to learning.
I think there is definitely merit to this post. Frankly, I think everyone should start in a Miata before they're even allowed to drive a vette on the track with other people, but that discussion is a whole different can of worms. As you noted, driver skill and knowledge comes with experience. It is true that John Heinricy won a ridiculous number of races and championships on the OEM brake package, as have many other folks. They all ran those brakes because the rules stated that they must. John also had an obscene amount of seat time, as do many other racers. You're talking about a very different situation vs. the casual enthusiast who wants to go out and rip around the track a few weekends per year. Most of them will never remotely approach John's skill. Frankly, many of them may never be more than mediocre drivers at best. Most of them have a tight work schedule, a growing family, or other obligations that severely limit their track time. For those guys, spending their very limited amount of track time trying to conserve their brakes may not be all that much fun. Maybe they don't even want to become a fantastic driver who can squeeze every drop out of a car. Maybe they just want a thrill, a chance to hang out with some like-minded people, and to feel safe and confident doing it. For those guys, a brake kit is likely a better investment than heads, a cam, headers, and coil-overs. Unfortunately, many people go the other route first, and find out afterwards that their brakes can't hang with their other hardware.

Most of our customers also don't have a support team at the track with them. They don't have professional mechanics helping them bleed the brakes, swap pads, or remove cracked discs. As such, they have to do it themselves. They'd rather be sipping a water, chatting, or attending their classroom instruction between sessions. Any time that can be saved not worrying about all that stuff is valuable. Also, when you're tied up with that junk between sessions, you're usually worried about missing your next session. It's stressful, and missed sessions is like throwing money away. Also, when you're rushing around doing those items, you tend to forget things, which can be costly. For HPDE instructors, they may have two students to keep tabs on. They don't have time for working on their brakes between sessions, or they may not get any track time themselves.

As an FYI, John Heinricy is currently running our front and rear Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kit on his personal C7 Grand Sport. He has told us that they are the best brakes he's ever used. He was initially running our two-piece discs on his Z51, which we detailed in this blog post. When he got his Grand Sport, our four wheel brake kit was one of the first mods he did. He had a choice, and he chose our system over all other available options. At the track he is usually giving a bunch of ride-alongs, etc., and I'm guessing that he doesn't want to worry about any shortcomings or waste any time messing with his brakes. That means a lot to us coming from a legendary Corvette racer and engineer. Also of note, AP Racing brakes have carried the C5.R, C6.R, and C7.R to victory at Le Mans and elsewhere countless times. Budget isn't much of an issue, but they choose what they think will help them win.

Am I biased? Sure I am. But I was an enthusiast on the other side of the coin for five years before joining this industry. I made the jump because motorsports are awesome and I love helping people squeeze the most enjoyment out of their time at the track. Our brake systems help them do exactly that. I like to say that our kits are the 'easy button.' Is that cheating? Are they a shortcut? Are they a crutch for some people? Maybe. As stated before however, some people value the saved time, money, and wrenching more than they value being able to squeeze every drop out of a car. They don't believe that constantly working around a weak link is a good use of their time. They'd rather have the confidence that the brakes will always be there when they need them. That allows them to focus on other things such as learning the line, making sure they see flags, learning to drive in traffic, and hitting consistent brake markers. IMO, those skills are all just as important to a budding racer as conserving the car is, and having a dead-nuts reliable brake system allows you to place your focus elsewhere.

Last edited by [email protected]; 07-25-2018 at 12:36 PM.
JRitt@essex is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Fed up with crap brakes. Need tips for complete overhaul


Sponsored Ads
Vendor Directory

Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: