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Sorry for being late. Here is the latest video I have.
Hard to tell without data, but based on engine noise and perceived decel, it looks like you're early on the brakes and tend to ride them. That'll cook them every time. Need to be fast on / fast off while being smooth.
The cooling you identified in your first post will go a long way towards helping out. I ran that setup on my '13 since it was new. I never once faded my brakes (Carbotech) or boiled my fluid (Ate or Motul 600). I instruct so the car sees a lot of track time on a given day since I'll take people/students for rides. Am I the fastest guy on the track? On occasion but rare. However the rest of the time I'm in the top third. Point being...I'm not out there doing parade laps. I push the car a bit but focus more on consistency.
All of the above means I think you have to decide what your real goals are...
- If your goal is to be the fastest car on track and you want to drive at 10/10ths (ie ragged edge of control) all or the majority of the time, a high dollar brake kit begins to look pretty good. The Essex AP Racing kits are eye-popping and having been in cars with them, I can state they are 100% as good as advertised or even better than advertised.
- If your goal is to have a fun, push the car but remain comfortably in control (ie 7 or 8/10s driving), and spend more time working on technique and consistency then cooling plus good pads and fluid will be fine.
Personally I recommend working on technique and consistency first. Poor technique can cook $5000 brakes just like it can factory brakes...it may simply take an extra lap or two.
Hard to tell without data, but based on engine noise and perceived decel, it looks like you're early on the brakes and tend to ride them. That'll cook them every time. Need to be fast on / fast off while being smooth.
The cooling you identified in your first post will go a long way towards helping out. I ran that setup on my '13 since it was new. I never once faded my brakes (Carbotech) or boiled my fluid (Ate or Motul 600). I instruct so the car sees a lot of track time on a given day since I'll take people/students for rides. Am I the fastest guy on the track? On occasion but rare. However the rest of the time I'm in the top third. Point being...I'm not out there doing parade laps. I push the car a bit but focus more on consistency.
All of the above means I think you have to decide what your real goals are...
- If your goal is to be the fastest car on track and you want to drive at 10/10ths (ie ragged edge of control) all or the majority of the time, a high dollar brake kit begins to look pretty good. The Essex AP Racing kits are eye-popping and having been in cars with them, I can state they are 100% as good as advertised or even better than advertised.
- If your goal is to have a fun, push the car but remain comfortably in control (ie 7 or 8/10s driving), and spend more time working on technique and consistency then cooling plus good pads and fluid will be fine.
Personally I recommend working on technique and consistency first. Poor technique can cook $5000 brakes just like it can factory brakes...it may simply take an extra lap or two.
I am, because I do not trust them. I guess I'll have to exit the comfort zone and brake harder for a shorter period of time.
I already hear everyone laughing, and I know its very unlikely, but I would like to become one of the guys others have been mentioning. Standing on the podium has been a lifelong dream, and I am trying to give it a go.
Problem I have right now is that I have reached a point where most instructors don't have much to tell me anymore. I have to figure out my own, and inconsistent brakes have been the main reason why I have a hard time being consistent; entering the curve too fast = not leaving the curve where I want, and I find difficult to gauge the brake "damage", because the car will brake fine, then the next turn have a **** pedal, and since the problem is slowly creeping up, its hard to gauge where the "limit" is.
If you can find the picture I posted earlier of the track I go to, the curve 9 is where I cook the brakes. If this one was straight, I don't think I would have any issues. However, I am glad its here, I have to learn how to deal with any scenario.
One of the reason I complained about the price is because an expensive BBK mean I won't be able to spend as much on seat time, which is the most important to me. I have not missed any event I could attend with my club this year aside of two, when the car was broken (damn you, steering column lock!).
So, based on JRitt, I think the biggest problem I have right now is that I am using top shelf fluid, top shelf pads and garbage bremsen disks. My local performance part shop carries stoptech stuff. I'll see if I can find decent one-piece disks to match my setup.
I'll then buy some spindle ducts because those are good to have on any brake setup, then I'll pile up for a good BBK kit (looks like essex is the one I should go for), which is not going to happen this year, and unlikely next year either. That should give me more time to git gud.
I am, because I do not trust them. I guess I'll have to exit the comfort zone and brake harder for a shorter period of time.
I already hear everyone laughing, and I know its very unlikely, but I would like to become one of the guys others have been mentioning. Standing on the podium has been a lifelong dream, and I am trying to give it a go.
Problem I have right now is that I have reached a point where most instructors don't have much to tell me anymore. I have to figure out my own, and inconsistent brakes have been the main reason why I have a hard time being consistent; entering the curve too fast = not leaving the curve where I want, and I find difficult to gauge the brake "damage", because the car will brake fine, then the next turn have a **** pedal, and since the problem is slowly creeping up, its hard to gauge where the "limit" is.
If you can find the picture I posted earlier of the track I go to, the curve 9 is where I cook the brakes. If this one was straight, I don't think I would have any issues. However, I am glad its here, I have to learn how to deal with any scenario.
One of the reason I complained about the price is because an expensive BBK mean I won't be able to spend as much on seat time, which is the most important to me. I have not missed any event I could attend with my club this year aside of two, when the car was broken (damn you, steering column lock!).
So, based on JRitt, I think the biggest problem I have right now is that I am using top shelf fluid, top shelf pads and garbage bremsen disks. My local performance part shop carries stoptech stuff. I'll see if I can find decent one-piece disks to match my setup.
I'll then buy some spindle ducts because those are good to have on any brake setup, then I'll pile up for a good BBK kit (looks like essex is the one I should go for), which is not going to happen this year, and unlikely next year either. That should give me more time to git gud.
W2W by definition means you have to learn when to lean hard on the car and when to throttle back. If you're running a 30 minute sprint race with no pit stops on a super hot day, you have to conserve tires which by definition means you have to pick your spots, have a sound race strategy, and a sound in-race plan for passing / blocking / maintaining position.
If you aren't learning much from instructors, it may be time for a new group or it may mean they need to be reminded that you're past the high level "learning the line" stuff. Assuming the latter to be the case, it helps to show up with a list of what you want help on. In your case I'd ask someone to focus on braking technique. I'd also ask to be assigned to someone that has a similar car....not someone who normally drives a Miata or S2000 or WRX. Get the instructor driving the Camaro or Mustang or Challenger or other heavy car on stock brakes.
Regarding discs....plenty of people ran or continue to run cheap rotors on the C5 without issue. They often crack more quickly, but replacement is cheap. They also see pad taper and suffer knock-back but regardless they're still able to perform on track.
As far as Turn 9....that's merely the tipping point. You didn't cook your brakes in one turn. Heat was building over the course of the entire session.
I think you need to dial it back, practice later/hard/smooth brake application, and then after you feel comfortable with it begin adding speed and adjusting your braking zones.
Here's a thought provoking question....Are the majority of people cooking their brakes on this track or primarily only you? Of those not having braking issues, are they faster than you? If it's primarily you and you're being passed, that means it's time to significantly re-evaluate technique.
Btw...you might want to research "Spec Corvette". Relatively inexpensive build as far as C5 based race cars (that are still streetable) go.
Here's the thing with videos: they always look artificially slow. That said, there are a couple points where it's obvious your braking is very lazy. Combine that with a short track and everything gets hot AF. Is there a local hotshoe who may be willing to give you some laps in your own car? Shoring up the driving aspect takes the ball out of your court.
I've raced 1.5 hour enduros on a front only kit from TCE Todd using factory sized rotors from NAPA. I would love long lasting two piece rotors but I have to use NAPA rotors because I spend money elsewhere. Do yourself a favor and hold off on that 500 hp motor.
I'm the one with the Wilwood Aero6, Aero4 calipers for sale. Fresh rebuild and powdercoat. These have the upgraded Thermolock pistons that reduce heat transfer. Both calipers can use 12.8-15" rotors. Includes 4 14" 2-piece rotors. This set up gives you opens at a much cheaper price than the other BBK kits. Let me know if your interested.
I've raced 1.5 hour enduros on a front only kit from TCE Todd using factory sized rotors from NAPA. I would love long lasting two piece rotors but I have to use NAPA rotors because I spend money elsewhere. Do yourself a favor and hold off on that 500 hp motor.
A lot of people seem to stick on that part. This is NOT going to happen anytime soon. Engine will be my last upgrade, once suspension, cage, brakes, cooling, chassis and tires have been sorted out first. I merely answered the question about "planned horsepower".
I'm the one with the Wilwood Aero6, Aero4 calipers for sale. Fresh rebuild and powdercoat. These have the upgraded Thermolock pistons that reduce heat transfer. Both calipers can use 12.8-15" rotors. Includes 4 14" 2-piece rotors. This set up gives you opens at a much cheaper price than the other BBK kits. Let me know if your interested.
Sorry, I have answered your message. My budget for parts as of now is pretty much 0$ for the rest of the season. I was asking questions so I can do some research for this winter.
Sorry, I have answered your message. My budget for parts as of now is pretty much 0$ for the rest of the season. I was asking questions so I can do some research for this winter.
When you're back in the market for brakes, I'd take a good look at the Aero6 from Wilwood. I've have been using them for a few seasons and have had very good luck. Rotors and pads last forever. I've run AP and StopTech in the past. All good systems but I found the Aero6 system to be the best bang for the $$$.
Sorry, I have answered your message. My budget for parts as of now is pretty much 0$ for the rest of the season. I was asking questions so I can do some research for this winter.
W2W by definition means you have to learn when to lean hard on the car and when to throttle back. If you're running a 30 minute sprint race with no pit stops on a super hot day, you have to conserve tires which by definition means you have to pick your spots, have a sound race strategy, and a sound in-race plan for passing / blocking / maintaining position.
If you aren't learning much from instructors, it may be time for a new group or it may mean they need to be reminded that you're past the high level "learning the line" stuff. Assuming the latter to be the case, it helps to show up with a list of what you want help on. In your case I'd ask someone to focus on braking technique. I'd also ask to be assigned to someone that has a similar car....not someone who normally drives a Miata or S2000 or WRX. Get the instructor driving the Camaro or Mustang or Challenger or other heavy car on stock brakes.
Regarding discs....plenty of people ran or continue to run cheap rotors on the C5 without issue. They often crack more quickly, but replacement is cheap. They also see pad taper and suffer knock-back but regardless they're still able to perform on track.
As far as Turn 9....that's merely the tipping point. You didn't cook your brakes in one turn. Heat was building over the course of the entire session.
I think you need to dial it back, practice later/hard/smooth brake application, and then after you feel comfortable with it begin adding speed and adjusting your braking zones.
Here's a thought provoking question....Are the majority of people cooking their brakes on this track or primarily only you? Of those not having braking issues, are they faster than you? If it's primarily you and you're being passed, that means it's time to significantly re-evaluate technique.
Btw...you might want to research "Spec Corvette". Relatively inexpensive build as far as C5 based race cars (that are still streetable) go.
There is an instructor with the exact same car that I have in my club, however, I recently learned that her C5 is her backup car. She usually run a M3. I will ask for a more experienced driver with a heavy car.
There are three "classes" of cars in this club. Dudes running stock cars, lots of BRZ, civics, miata, or other lightweight low power car. Then there are the more "serious" people coming with built cars what are stripped, race tires and such. Mostly light and low power, then there are the rich guys with their lambos and their mercedes, with carbon disks and all. I could be making an excuse here saying that I am the oddball with a fairly heavy car with street tires (not carrying as much momentum through the curves), with a lot of power (so lots of speed to shed in the entries of the turns), making my case a little harder to properly manage everything than it would with, say, a BRZ, but excuses are for people who don't care about improving.
Again, as I have stated numerously in this thread, I am fully aware the problem start between the steering and the seat. People have suggested I remove the competition mode and go full off, which I have done. Next, I have to predict when the brakes are too hot to use them and slow down a bit.
I have dialed down in the past due to engine temp, problem is, when I do that I become lazy and I stop working on my turn entry. Driving faster force me to notice my errors and improve on them, keeps me on the edge.
I don't want to simply reject what you say, or oppose resistance, but I am explaining what I am doing so you can tell me what to change.
W2W by definition means you have to learn when to lean hard on the car and when to throttle back. If you're running a 30 minute sprint race with no pit stops on a super hot day, you have to conserve tires which by definition means you have to pick your spots, have a sound race strategy, and a sound in-race plan for passing / blocking / maintaining position.
I don't care if it's a 45 minute sprint race, I'll be ***** out on lap 1 and never lift. Those who say a race can't be won on the 1st lap have never raced. It's not unusual for me to run my fastest lap at the end of a 30 minute race. Did it again just last weekend. Conserving tires and fuel is for enduros. For the typical NASA weekend I beat my car like it owes me money nonstop.
I don't care if it's a 45 minute sprint race, I'll be ***** out on lap 1 and never lift. Those who say a race can't be won on the 1st lap have never raced. It's not unusual for me to run my fastest lap at the end of a 30 minute race. Did it again just last weekend. Conserving tires and fuel is for enduros. For the typical NASA weekend I beat my car like it owes me money nonstop.
First, nowhere do I say anything about the first lap. Nowhere. Second, try ***** out on a 115* day for 30-45 min and see how the tires work on that last lap.
Bottom line....you have to be smart about how you run and that includes accounting for the environment.
First, nowhere do I say anything about the first lap. Nowhere. Second, try ***** out on a 115* day for 30-45 min and see how the tires work on that last lap.
Bottom line....you have to be smart about how you run and that includes accounting for the environment.
I added the bit about lap1, it's another misconception that drives me nuts. My tires will suck on the last lap just like everyone else's. Get your position before the car takes a dump and then maintain as it deteriorates. Just because someone has a better car at the end, that's no guarantee they can pass at will or at all. At that point you're splitting hairs anyway. You're not comparing a fresh car to one with overheated tires, you're comparing one with slightly less overheated tires but he's a couple corners back because he was too busy being nice to his car.
Last edited by Supercharged111; 08-05-2018 at 08:33 PM.
I am already experimenting with tire pressure. I read somewhere on Michelin's website how to read damage on the tire and adjust accordingly. On a hotter day, I run 32 psi and I have seen less wear and get more grip.
Originally Posted by 96GS#007
First, nowhere do I say anything about the first lap. Nowhere. Second, try ***** out on a 115* day for 30-45 min and see how the tires work on that last lap.
Bottom line....you have to be smart about how you run and that includes accounting for the environment.
I am just on track days here. No actual racing, so merely learning.
Last saturday, I was on a time attack event, and I was the fastest in the Enthusiast class (both on FWD and RWD), and I would be third on street class (Race > Modified > Street > Enthusiast on that event). Best lap was 1.00:216. The fastest was 0:55.xx. Finished on 23rd place out of 61. Street tires with stock car with no performance modifications aside of stainless brake lines and PFC11 pads.
On 10 minutes sessions, there is no fading and no boiling even with the competition driving enabled.
Brake hard and later definitely made me gain some time on the lap.
After today, I think the problem is really the slow creep up of the temp during the 20 minute sessions, and I am confident that duct/better disks will do a good job mitigating this issue.
Just for your information, you have to add the communist import duty to everything coming in. I had also factored a sales tax and shipping (didn't know if you guys had one). This is not your fault, but I have to stick to a budget.
Can't you just drive down to the states, pick up a BBK kit (or have it shipped to a town near the US border on the US side and pick it up there) and drive the kit back in? Better yet, drive the vette to the states, have the kit installed (or install it yourself at a local garage), and then drive the completed car back across the border.
Last edited by quick04Z06; 08-06-2018 at 12:53 PM.
The problem for us canadians is our weak dollar, shipping and customs it adds up quickly...
Even years ago on my old track car i got hit with something like 500+ in customs for 6pot/4pot wilwood brakes... 2 piece floating rotors, lines and pads included.
Now is even worse...
I hate the stock crap brakes so much, all the stories everyone says how the stock brakes are 'good enough' is bullocks... I had arguments with people in the past and you just don't drive hard enough or haven't experienced better brakes...
I would love the essex kit but that will end up probably close to 10k when it gets to the door in canadian dollars.
The aero 6 + 14" C6Z rotors is probably what I will eventually get.
So far this year with being LIGHT on the brakes I've had to put new rotors and pads twice... that is bullocks.... Not only is the braking ability of stock c5 brakes junk, they don't last long... rotors crack... and if you dump money into upgrades (pistons, cooling, etc...) you're still spending big bucks... don't forget labor for some of us...
Import duty to Canada?
Excuse my ignorance, but wasn't NAFTA supposed to open our border to trade?
Please don't tell me that our Idiot-in-Chief was right, and NAFTA actually is a farce...
07-25-2018, 05:27 PM
