Which extinguisher? ABC?
09-19-2018, 08:00 PM
#2
Race Director
summit has the https://www.summitracing.com/parts/htr-mx250r/overview/ which seems to come with a metal bracket, the basic requirement. I haven't tried or tested, but have been looking at them.
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froggy47 (09-20-2018)
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froggy47 (09-20-2018)
09-20-2018, 03:04 AM
#4
Froggy,
After a lot of thought and talking to a very close friend of mine that is a professional smoke jumper of 25 plus years and consultant regarding fire safety to different organizations, military and police agencies, here is what we concluded for a track day car. This is going to be a longer response but I do feel it is good to talk about this and get other peoples experience trying to fight fires. First, there is a difference between extinguishing and suppressing a fire. For this track day car solution, think suppression since there is no way to guarantee extinguishing the fire permanently with a small hand held device.
First, the car is a consumable product that can be replaced....for somebody that does HPDE, etc the only thing that matters first is human life and safety. Only after the human aspect is safely removed from the car/fire, then the car can be addressed if it is still on fire. Make all fire fighting decisions based on protecting you or another driver.....the cars survival is very low on the list.
Our street cars are not race cars....I would estimate 95% or more HPDE cars have full interiors, undercoating, upholstery and tons of plastic and rubber products under the hood and inside the cabin. This is the exact opposite of a full on race car that has nothing but steel exposed panels inside the cabin and under the hood. This is an important to remember as a "halon" type extinguisher works great to put out fire but as soon as the breeze dissipates the gas, any hot plastic, rubber or petroleum products can re-ignite. This is a huge problem if you've ever fought a car fire once it gets going. Street cars are full of stuff that likes to burn. That is the biggest problem with any "gas" type extinguisher...they work great to put out the fire but there is nothing left to smother or cool the surface and keep it from re-igniting.
Dry extinguishers would be our last choice.....if you need to help somebody or if you are trapped in your car and the dry product is sprayed into your cabin, you will be blind from the dust and not able to breath. So even if you are trying to get out of your car, undo something that has you pinned, etc,...you'll be doing it blind and with no breath since you'll be choking and coughing. I don't know the long term effects of breathing in the dry stuff either, but it probably isn't good. If you don't believe how bad the dust cloud is when trying to work around or in a vehicle, go get an el-cheapo dry extinguisher and spray a couple quick blasts into a yard corner and be ready for a huge cloud to overtake the area....now imagine doing this in or around a cabin. This doesn't even address the highly corrosive properties of the dry stuff. You can pretty much total a car if sprayed on enough electrical components under the hood....you'll potentially be chasing electrical gremlins forever. I was at a gas station filling up last month when a vehicle pulled in and parked in the parking area. As soon as he stopped, I could see smoke starting to pour out of the drivers front tire wheel well. At first I thought he had blown a radiator hose but soon realized that the smoke was a blue-ish color....crap, he's on fire. I yell at the guy and he just bends over looking at the top of the tire trying to figure out what is going on. I run into the gas station and grab the ABC fire extinguisher mounted so high on the wall and behind the waist high ice cream freezer that I had to stand on my toes to get it down (crazy, huh?). I run out and tell the guy to stand back. I see the flames on the under side of his motor and hit it with a couple of blasts of dry chemical. We both had to move back since dust cloud was blinding and caused choking.....it was like somebody exploded a bottle of talcum powder inside a small room. There was no breeze and the cloud just hung there. Luckily the fire stayed out and I had the owner pop the hood while I poured bottles of water on the area where the fire was to cool it down and help avoid re-ignition. This experience just re-enforced what my friend explained when trying to fight a vehicle fire with a dry product in tight quarters. I can't imaging getting this dust cloud inside the cabin if I was sitting there injured where I couldn't extricate myself out of the car. Car is on fire and I can't breathe.....worst case scenario.
The product we settled on is a wet foam type product. This is very similar to what fire departments often use when given the opportunity when fighting vehicle or plane fires. There are plenty of different brand names on the market but the key is it is wet, it cools the surface and it doesn't evaporate or blow away. The cooling aspect is very important. You can imagine if you are able to cool a hot exhaust manifold then it cannot re-ignite the petroleum product dripping on it. The liquid helps smoother the oxygen so that helps limit re-ignition. And lastly it is non toxic so you can spray it on a persons face and they will be able to breath and not be blinded. Here is a example of the product my friend has tested and used in real life situations and training: https://www.coldfiretactical.com/products/
He recommends model CF302-20TL which is the 20 oz size for a track car. You can mix and match the 12 oz and 20 oz versions as you see fit since they are sized correctly for mounting inside the vehicle, etc. This type of extinguisher can be sprayed directly on a victim to act as a barrier from fire and heat (in case they are pinned or trapped) or to chill somebody that has already been burned. Remember, you may be in a situation where you are actually helping another driver because you're the first person on the scene. Most tracks have extinguishers at corner workers stations, on the emergency vehicles stationed at parts of the track, etc. But what about the pits where we probably spend more than 60% of our day during a track event? Over the years, I've seen a couple of cars catch fire while parked in the paddock between sessions. All the fire fighting personnel are on the track or the pit exit, etc. Having an extra fire extinguisher handy in your pit gear (separate from the one mounted in your car) is always a prudent thing to have when parked in the paddock. This issue is compounded when people bring fuel with them to the track to refill their car in the paddocks....just one more chance for a fire to erupt.
You can also remove the worry about conducting electricity when using a product to fight a vehicle fire. There is no AC current to worry about.....12 volts DC will not harm a human. So even if you are able to smoother a fire with plain old water and it contacts exposed melted wires, the battery terminals, etc it will not shock you like AC current can. Some fire fighting products do not conduct electricity....but we don't have to worry about that and this means we have more ways to fight the fire.
I feel if you were going to go all out on fire suppression for a track day car, a combination of a gas system professionally plumbed to strategic locations of the engine compartment and the cabin plus a wet foam canister like Coldfire mounted inside the car would be the ultimate in fire suppression. For me, I will just be using the Coldfire type canisters. Interested to hear others thoughts and personal experiences fighting vehicle fires.
After a lot of thought and talking to a very close friend of mine that is a professional smoke jumper of 25 plus years and consultant regarding fire safety to different organizations, military and police agencies, here is what we concluded for a track day car. This is going to be a longer response but I do feel it is good to talk about this and get other peoples experience trying to fight fires. First, there is a difference between extinguishing and suppressing a fire. For this track day car solution, think suppression since there is no way to guarantee extinguishing the fire permanently with a small hand held device.
First, the car is a consumable product that can be replaced....for somebody that does HPDE, etc the only thing that matters first is human life and safety. Only after the human aspect is safely removed from the car/fire, then the car can be addressed if it is still on fire. Make all fire fighting decisions based on protecting you or another driver.....the cars survival is very low on the list.
Our street cars are not race cars....I would estimate 95% or more HPDE cars have full interiors, undercoating, upholstery and tons of plastic and rubber products under the hood and inside the cabin. This is the exact opposite of a full on race car that has nothing but steel exposed panels inside the cabin and under the hood. This is an important to remember as a "halon" type extinguisher works great to put out fire but as soon as the breeze dissipates the gas, any hot plastic, rubber or petroleum products can re-ignite. This is a huge problem if you've ever fought a car fire once it gets going. Street cars are full of stuff that likes to burn. That is the biggest problem with any "gas" type extinguisher...they work great to put out the fire but there is nothing left to smother or cool the surface and keep it from re-igniting.
Dry extinguishers would be our last choice.....if you need to help somebody or if you are trapped in your car and the dry product is sprayed into your cabin, you will be blind from the dust and not able to breath. So even if you are trying to get out of your car, undo something that has you pinned, etc,...you'll be doing it blind and with no breath since you'll be choking and coughing. I don't know the long term effects of breathing in the dry stuff either, but it probably isn't good. If you don't believe how bad the dust cloud is when trying to work around or in a vehicle, go get an el-cheapo dry extinguisher and spray a couple quick blasts into a yard corner and be ready for a huge cloud to overtake the area....now imagine doing this in or around a cabin. This doesn't even address the highly corrosive properties of the dry stuff. You can pretty much total a car if sprayed on enough electrical components under the hood....you'll potentially be chasing electrical gremlins forever. I was at a gas station filling up last month when a vehicle pulled in and parked in the parking area. As soon as he stopped, I could see smoke starting to pour out of the drivers front tire wheel well. At first I thought he had blown a radiator hose but soon realized that the smoke was a blue-ish color....crap, he's on fire. I yell at the guy and he just bends over looking at the top of the tire trying to figure out what is going on. I run into the gas station and grab the ABC fire extinguisher mounted so high on the wall and behind the waist high ice cream freezer that I had to stand on my toes to get it down (crazy, huh?). I run out and tell the guy to stand back. I see the flames on the under side of his motor and hit it with a couple of blasts of dry chemical. We both had to move back since dust cloud was blinding and caused choking.....it was like somebody exploded a bottle of talcum powder inside a small room. There was no breeze and the cloud just hung there. Luckily the fire stayed out and I had the owner pop the hood while I poured bottles of water on the area where the fire was to cool it down and help avoid re-ignition. This experience just re-enforced what my friend explained when trying to fight a vehicle fire with a dry product in tight quarters. I can't imaging getting this dust cloud inside the cabin if I was sitting there injured where I couldn't extricate myself out of the car. Car is on fire and I can't breathe.....worst case scenario.
The product we settled on is a wet foam type product. This is very similar to what fire departments often use when given the opportunity when fighting vehicle or plane fires. There are plenty of different brand names on the market but the key is it is wet, it cools the surface and it doesn't evaporate or blow away. The cooling aspect is very important. You can imagine if you are able to cool a hot exhaust manifold then it cannot re-ignite the petroleum product dripping on it. The liquid helps smoother the oxygen so that helps limit re-ignition. And lastly it is non toxic so you can spray it on a persons face and they will be able to breath and not be blinded. Here is a example of the product my friend has tested and used in real life situations and training: https://www.coldfiretactical.com/products/
He recommends model CF302-20TL which is the 20 oz size for a track car. You can mix and match the 12 oz and 20 oz versions as you see fit since they are sized correctly for mounting inside the vehicle, etc. This type of extinguisher can be sprayed directly on a victim to act as a barrier from fire and heat (in case they are pinned or trapped) or to chill somebody that has already been burned. Remember, you may be in a situation where you are actually helping another driver because you're the first person on the scene. Most tracks have extinguishers at corner workers stations, on the emergency vehicles stationed at parts of the track, etc. But what about the pits where we probably spend more than 60% of our day during a track event? Over the years, I've seen a couple of cars catch fire while parked in the paddock between sessions. All the fire fighting personnel are on the track or the pit exit, etc. Having an extra fire extinguisher handy in your pit gear (separate from the one mounted in your car) is always a prudent thing to have when parked in the paddock. This issue is compounded when people bring fuel with them to the track to refill their car in the paddocks....just one more chance for a fire to erupt.
You can also remove the worry about conducting electricity when using a product to fight a vehicle fire. There is no AC current to worry about.....12 volts DC will not harm a human. So even if you are able to smoother a fire with plain old water and it contacts exposed melted wires, the battery terminals, etc it will not shock you like AC current can. Some fire fighting products do not conduct electricity....but we don't have to worry about that and this means we have more ways to fight the fire.
I feel if you were going to go all out on fire suppression for a track day car, a combination of a gas system professionally plumbed to strategic locations of the engine compartment and the cabin plus a wet foam canister like Coldfire mounted inside the car would be the ultimate in fire suppression. For me, I will just be using the Coldfire type canisters. Interested to hear others thoughts and personal experiences fighting vehicle fires.
09-20-2018, 11:30 AM
#5
Melting Slicks
Pro Mechanic
Member Since: Nov 2013
Location: Ex DPRK, now just N of Medford, OR
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Some very good info here. Nicely written!
I need to replace the system in my race car. I'll look into one of the AFF (wet) systems, makes sense.
Dry chem: it's quite a bummer in a small space!
I need to replace the system in my race car. I'll look into one of the AFF (wet) systems, makes sense.
Dry chem: it's quite a bummer in a small space!
09-20-2018, 01:49 PM
#6
Race Director
Thread Starter
Froggy,
After a lot of thought and talking to a very close friend of mine that is a professional smoke jumper of 25 plus years and consultant regarding fire safety to different organizations, military and police agencies, here is what we concluded for a track day car. This is going to be a longer response but I do feel it is good to talk about this and get other peoples experience trying to fight fires. First, there is a difference between extinguishing and suppressing a fire. For this track day car solution, think suppression since there is no way to guarantee extinguishing the fire permanently with a small hand held device.
First, the car is a consumable product that can be replaced....for somebody that does HPDE, etc the only thing that matters first is human life and safety. Only after the human aspect is safely removed from the car/fire, then the car can be addressed if it is still on fire. Make all fire fighting decisions based on protecting you or another driver.....the cars survival is very low on the list.
Our street cars are not race cars....I would estimate 95% or more HPDE cars have full interiors, undercoating, upholstery and tons of plastic and rubber products under the hood and inside the cabin. This is the exact opposite of a full on race car that has nothing but steel exposed panels inside the cabin and under the hood. This is an important to remember as a "halon" type extinguisher works great to put out fire but as soon as the breeze dissipates the gas, any hot plastic, rubber or petroleum products can re-ignite. This is a huge problem if you've ever fought a car fire once it gets going. Street cars are full of stuff that likes to burn. That is the biggest problem with any "gas" type extinguisher...they work great to put out the fire but there is nothing left to smother or cool the surface and keep it from re-igniting.
Dry extinguishers would be our last choice.....if you need to help somebody or if you are trapped in your car and the dry product is sprayed into your cabin, you will be blind from the dust and not able to breath. So even if you are trying to get out of your car, undo something that has you pinned, etc,...you'll be doing it blind and with no breath since you'll be choking and coughing. I don't know the long term effects of breathing in the dry stuff either, but it probably isn't good. If you don't believe how bad the dust cloud is when trying to work around or in a vehicle, go get an el-cheapo dry extinguisher and spray a couple quick blasts into a yard corner and be ready for a huge cloud to overtake the area....now imagine doing this in or around a cabin. This doesn't even address the highly corrosive properties of the dry stuff. You can pretty much total a car if sprayed on enough electrical components under the hood....you'll potentially be chasing electrical gremlins forever. I was at a gas station filling up last month when a vehicle pulled in and parked in the parking area. As soon as he stopped, I could see smoke starting to pour out of the drivers front tire wheel well. At first I thought he had blown a radiator hose but soon realized that the smoke was a blue-ish color....crap, he's on fire. I yell at the guy and he just bends over looking at the top of the tire trying to figure out what is going on. I run into the gas station and grab the ABC fire extinguisher mounted so high on the wall and behind the waist high ice cream freezer that I had to stand on my toes to get it down (crazy, huh?). I run out and tell the guy to stand back. I see the flames on the under side of his motor and hit it with a couple of blasts of dry chemical. We both had to move back since dust cloud was blinding and caused choking.....it was like somebody exploded a bottle of talcum powder inside a small room. There was no breeze and the cloud just hung there. Luckily the fire stayed out and I had the owner pop the hood while I poured bottles of water on the area where the fire was to cool it down and help avoid re-ignition. This experience just re-enforced what my friend explained when trying to fight a vehicle fire with a dry product in tight quarters. I can't imaging getting this dust cloud inside the cabin if I was sitting there injured where I couldn't extricate myself out of the car. Car is on fire and I can't breathe.....worst case scenario.
The product we settled on is a wet foam type product. This is very similar to what fire departments often use when given the opportunity when fighting vehicle or plane fires. There are plenty of different brand names on the market but the key is it is wet, it cools the surface and it doesn't evaporate or blow away. The cooling aspect is very important. You can imagine if you are able to cool a hot exhaust manifold then it cannot re-ignite the petroleum product dripping on it. The liquid helps smoother the oxygen so that helps limit re-ignition. And lastly it is non toxic so you can spray it on a persons face and they will be able to breath and not be blinded. Here is a example of the product my friend has tested and used in real life situations and training: https://www.coldfiretactical.com/products/
He recommends model CF302-20TL which is the 20 oz size for a track car. You can mix and match the 12 oz and 20 oz versions as you see fit since they are sized correctly for mounting inside the vehicle, etc. This type of extinguisher can be sprayed directly on a victim to act as a barrier from fire and heat (in case they are pinned or trapped) or to chill somebody that has already been burned. Remember, you may be in a situation where you are actually helping another driver because you're the first person on the scene. Most tracks have extinguishers at corner workers stations, on the emergency vehicles stationed at parts of the track, etc. But what about the pits where we probably spend more than 60% of our day during a track event? Over the years, I've seen a couple of cars catch fire while parked in the paddock between sessions. All the fire fighting personnel are on the track or the pit exit, etc. Having an extra fire extinguisher handy in your pit gear (separate from the one mounted in your car) is always a prudent thing to have when parked in the paddock. This issue is compounded when people bring fuel with them to the track to refill their car in the paddocks....just one more chance for a fire to erupt.
You can also remove the worry about conducting electricity when using a product to fight a vehicle fire. There is no AC current to worry about.....12 volts DC will not harm a human. So even if you are able to smoother a fire with plain old water and it contacts exposed melted wires, the battery terminals, etc it will not shock you like AC current can. Some fire fighting products do not conduct electricity....but we don't have to worry about that and this means we have more ways to fight the fire.
I feel if you were going to go all out on fire suppression for a track day car, a combination of a gas system professionally plumbed to strategic locations of the engine compartment and the cabin plus a wet foam canister like Coldfire mounted inside the car would be the ultimate in fire suppression. For me, I will just be using the Coldfire type canisters. Interested to hear others thoughts and personal experiences fighting vehicle fires.
After a lot of thought and talking to a very close friend of mine that is a professional smoke jumper of 25 plus years and consultant regarding fire safety to different organizations, military and police agencies, here is what we concluded for a track day car. This is going to be a longer response but I do feel it is good to talk about this and get other peoples experience trying to fight fires. First, there is a difference between extinguishing and suppressing a fire. For this track day car solution, think suppression since there is no way to guarantee extinguishing the fire permanently with a small hand held device.
First, the car is a consumable product that can be replaced....for somebody that does HPDE, etc the only thing that matters first is human life and safety. Only after the human aspect is safely removed from the car/fire, then the car can be addressed if it is still on fire. Make all fire fighting decisions based on protecting you or another driver.....the cars survival is very low on the list.
Our street cars are not race cars....I would estimate 95% or more HPDE cars have full interiors, undercoating, upholstery and tons of plastic and rubber products under the hood and inside the cabin. This is the exact opposite of a full on race car that has nothing but steel exposed panels inside the cabin and under the hood. This is an important to remember as a "halon" type extinguisher works great to put out fire but as soon as the breeze dissipates the gas, any hot plastic, rubber or petroleum products can re-ignite. This is a huge problem if you've ever fought a car fire once it gets going. Street cars are full of stuff that likes to burn. That is the biggest problem with any "gas" type extinguisher...they work great to put out the fire but there is nothing left to smother or cool the surface and keep it from re-igniting.
Dry extinguishers would be our last choice.....if you need to help somebody or if you are trapped in your car and the dry product is sprayed into your cabin, you will be blind from the dust and not able to breath. So even if you are trying to get out of your car, undo something that has you pinned, etc,...you'll be doing it blind and with no breath since you'll be choking and coughing. I don't know the long term effects of breathing in the dry stuff either, but it probably isn't good. If you don't believe how bad the dust cloud is when trying to work around or in a vehicle, go get an el-cheapo dry extinguisher and spray a couple quick blasts into a yard corner and be ready for a huge cloud to overtake the area....now imagine doing this in or around a cabin. This doesn't even address the highly corrosive properties of the dry stuff. You can pretty much total a car if sprayed on enough electrical components under the hood....you'll potentially be chasing electrical gremlins forever. I was at a gas station filling up last month when a vehicle pulled in and parked in the parking area. As soon as he stopped, I could see smoke starting to pour out of the drivers front tire wheel well. At first I thought he had blown a radiator hose but soon realized that the smoke was a blue-ish color....crap, he's on fire. I yell at the guy and he just bends over looking at the top of the tire trying to figure out what is going on. I run into the gas station and grab the ABC fire extinguisher mounted so high on the wall and behind the waist high ice cream freezer that I had to stand on my toes to get it down (crazy, huh?). I run out and tell the guy to stand back. I see the flames on the under side of his motor and hit it with a couple of blasts of dry chemical. We both had to move back since dust cloud was blinding and caused choking.....it was like somebody exploded a bottle of talcum powder inside a small room. There was no breeze and the cloud just hung there. Luckily the fire stayed out and I had the owner pop the hood while I poured bottles of water on the area where the fire was to cool it down and help avoid re-ignition. This experience just re-enforced what my friend explained when trying to fight a vehicle fire with a dry product in tight quarters. I can't imaging getting this dust cloud inside the cabin if I was sitting there injured where I couldn't extricate myself out of the car. Car is on fire and I can't breathe.....worst case scenario.
The product we settled on is a wet foam type product. This is very similar to what fire departments often use when given the opportunity when fighting vehicle or plane fires. There are plenty of different brand names on the market but the key is it is wet, it cools the surface and it doesn't evaporate or blow away. The cooling aspect is very important. You can imagine if you are able to cool a hot exhaust manifold then it cannot re-ignite the petroleum product dripping on it. The liquid helps smoother the oxygen so that helps limit re-ignition. And lastly it is non toxic so you can spray it on a persons face and they will be able to breath and not be blinded. Here is a example of the product my friend has tested and used in real life situations and training: https://www.coldfiretactical.com/products/
He recommends model CF302-20TL which is the 20 oz size for a track car. You can mix and match the 12 oz and 20 oz versions as you see fit since they are sized correctly for mounting inside the vehicle, etc. This type of extinguisher can be sprayed directly on a victim to act as a barrier from fire and heat (in case they are pinned or trapped) or to chill somebody that has already been burned. Remember, you may be in a situation where you are actually helping another driver because you're the first person on the scene. Most tracks have extinguishers at corner workers stations, on the emergency vehicles stationed at parts of the track, etc. But what about the pits where we probably spend more than 60% of our day during a track event? Over the years, I've seen a couple of cars catch fire while parked in the paddock between sessions. All the fire fighting personnel are on the track or the pit exit, etc. Having an extra fire extinguisher handy in your pit gear (separate from the one mounted in your car) is always a prudent thing to have when parked in the paddock. This issue is compounded when people bring fuel with them to the track to refill their car in the paddocks....just one more chance for a fire to erupt.
You can also remove the worry about conducting electricity when using a product to fight a vehicle fire. There is no AC current to worry about.....12 volts DC will not harm a human. So even if you are able to smoother a fire with plain old water and it contacts exposed melted wires, the battery terminals, etc it will not shock you like AC current can. Some fire fighting products do not conduct electricity....but we don't have to worry about that and this means we have more ways to fight the fire.
I feel if you were going to go all out on fire suppression for a track day car, a combination of a gas system professionally plumbed to strategic locations of the engine compartment and the cabin plus a wet foam canister like Coldfire mounted inside the car would be the ultimate in fire suppression. For me, I will just be using the Coldfire type canisters. Interested to hear others thoughts and personal experiences fighting vehicle fires.
If you get the chance, I'd love to hear what you and your buddy, would change, if anything, for fighting a fire on a hybrid car (probably nothing) or all electric car (?). the amps/voltages are all higher than our good old 12 volt cars.
09-20-2018, 02:26 PM
#7
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Feb 2009
Location: Dallas Georgia
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2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (track prepared)
C3 of Year Winner (track prepared) 2019
Any thoughts on Element fire extinguishers? I put an E50 in every car we own, along with my normal extinguishers in the track cars.
Did I fall for marketing hype? It's better than the no fire extinguisher we had before, so I guess there's that.
https://elementfire.com/
Did I fall for marketing hype? It's better than the no fire extinguisher we had before, so I guess there's that.
https://elementfire.com/
Last edited by fleming23; 09-20-2018 at 02:27 PM.
09-20-2018, 03:56 PM
#8
Race Director
Thread Starter
Any thoughts on Element fire extinguishers? I put an E50 in every car we own, along with my normal extinguishers in the track cars.
Did I fall for marketing hype? It's better than the no fire extinguisher we had before, so I guess there's that.
https://elementfire.com/
Did I fall for marketing hype? It's better than the no fire extinguisher we had before, so I guess there's that.
https://elementfire.com/
09-20-2018, 07:31 PM
#9
Froggy,
Regarding the electric car battery system catching fire, that is a whole other issue. I did not research or talk to my friend in depth about it since we were strictly talking street driven track cars. The problem with a battery pack catching fire is it is very hard to put out. I don't know what kind of gases are released either when the battery starts to burn and if you can stand near the fire to fight it or if the fumes are so noxious that they cause you to start gasping for clean air. My understanding is a lithium type battery catching fire is a real bitch to put out. I do know that fire fighters do train for this and there are power cut offs in the car that they learn about not only for the fire, but to keep the battery from electrocuting them as they try to extricate an accident victim. They also carry large cable cutters that are insulated so they can lift the hood and cut the main power cable from the battery pack to the rest of the car so they don't get shocked. Imagine having to figure this out while the car is on fire and people are trapped in the car......talk about some courage!!
The best thing about fire damage is most vehicle insurance companies cover the damage, even if it is a liability coverage car and not full comprehensive (not talking track stuff, just street driving)...unless the damage exceeds its value and is going to cause it to be totaled. If a car catches fire and really starts to burn a bit, you as the owner needs to determine if you are going to try to put out the fire and deal with a vehicle that may never be the same even after it is "repaired" or do you just let it burn even though you may have a fire extinguisher handy. Tough call.....you're going to be out your deductible either way. Unfortunately you only have a few seconds of time to make the decision.....the key is to make sure you and the people around are safe and you can rescue any important belongings from the car. Then and only then do you decide to fight the fire....like I said, tough call.
Regarding the Element fire extinguisher, it is way better than nothing and it does work as advertised. But no two fires are the same when dealing with vehicles. One product may work great while another does not. Here is something to think about with all the "gas" type extinguishers......can you breath their gas in an enclosed area if this thing is set off? In other words, does it remove the breathable oxygen to replace it with the oxygen depleting gas? That I do not know. But back in the late 1980's my father in law was racing SCCA in the GT4 class and we'd go to Sears Point to watch him and help with the car. One of the other racers that was in the same class that we'd become friends with came up to tell us an interesting story. He had just set his personal best time at Sears Point and in his excitement started fist pumping his right arm and inadvertently hit the Halon fire suppression system trigger with his elbow and did not realize it. The Halon (which is not even available in its old form today IIRC) sucked the oxygen out of the car and he though he was suffocating or having a heart attack for a few moments. He then realized that he had triggered the fire suppression system and it replaced the breathable air with the fire suppression gas.
I do not know if all "gas" fire extinguisher work the same way and if all the gases are breathable. If using the Element in an enclosed space, that is something to verify with the manufacturer that the gas it creates is breathable. I think the Element would work great for putting out flames under the hood, I just don't know for sure if you can breathe the gas without choking or blacking out. I haven't looked, but the info may be on their website....best to contact the manufacturer for clarification.
When doing this research with my friend, I also found out that some manufacturers use the term "extinguisher" and some use the term "suppression" when marketing their products. Apparently this has to do with legal liability of the product....suppressing the fire is not the same as extinguishing it which implies the fire is out permanently. Kind of hard to make that promise and claim on every fire that might come up. Pretty much useless trivia but I thought I'd put it out there.
Regarding the electric car battery system catching fire, that is a whole other issue. I did not research or talk to my friend in depth about it since we were strictly talking street driven track cars. The problem with a battery pack catching fire is it is very hard to put out. I don't know what kind of gases are released either when the battery starts to burn and if you can stand near the fire to fight it or if the fumes are so noxious that they cause you to start gasping for clean air. My understanding is a lithium type battery catching fire is a real bitch to put out. I do know that fire fighters do train for this and there are power cut offs in the car that they learn about not only for the fire, but to keep the battery from electrocuting them as they try to extricate an accident victim. They also carry large cable cutters that are insulated so they can lift the hood and cut the main power cable from the battery pack to the rest of the car so they don't get shocked. Imagine having to figure this out while the car is on fire and people are trapped in the car......talk about some courage!!
The best thing about fire damage is most vehicle insurance companies cover the damage, even if it is a liability coverage car and not full comprehensive (not talking track stuff, just street driving)...unless the damage exceeds its value and is going to cause it to be totaled. If a car catches fire and really starts to burn a bit, you as the owner needs to determine if you are going to try to put out the fire and deal with a vehicle that may never be the same even after it is "repaired" or do you just let it burn even though you may have a fire extinguisher handy. Tough call.....you're going to be out your deductible either way. Unfortunately you only have a few seconds of time to make the decision.....the key is to make sure you and the people around are safe and you can rescue any important belongings from the car. Then and only then do you decide to fight the fire....like I said, tough call.
Regarding the Element fire extinguisher, it is way better than nothing and it does work as advertised. But no two fires are the same when dealing with vehicles. One product may work great while another does not. Here is something to think about with all the "gas" type extinguishers......can you breath their gas in an enclosed area if this thing is set off? In other words, does it remove the breathable oxygen to replace it with the oxygen depleting gas? That I do not know. But back in the late 1980's my father in law was racing SCCA in the GT4 class and we'd go to Sears Point to watch him and help with the car. One of the other racers that was in the same class that we'd become friends with came up to tell us an interesting story. He had just set his personal best time at Sears Point and in his excitement started fist pumping his right arm and inadvertently hit the Halon fire suppression system trigger with his elbow and did not realize it. The Halon (which is not even available in its old form today IIRC) sucked the oxygen out of the car and he though he was suffocating or having a heart attack for a few moments. He then realized that he had triggered the fire suppression system and it replaced the breathable air with the fire suppression gas.
I do not know if all "gas" fire extinguisher work the same way and if all the gases are breathable. If using the Element in an enclosed space, that is something to verify with the manufacturer that the gas it creates is breathable. I think the Element would work great for putting out flames under the hood, I just don't know for sure if you can breathe the gas without choking or blacking out. I haven't looked, but the info may be on their website....best to contact the manufacturer for clarification.
When doing this research with my friend, I also found out that some manufacturers use the term "extinguisher" and some use the term "suppression" when marketing their products. Apparently this has to do with legal liability of the product....suppressing the fire is not the same as extinguishing it which implies the fire is out permanently. Kind of hard to make that promise and claim on every fire that might come up. Pretty much useless trivia but I thought I'd put it out there.
09-20-2018, 09:31 PM
#10
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Oct 1999
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No matter which FE you choose you need it easily accessible. If it is mounted in front of the passenger seat it is impossible to get to if you are belted into the car, if you release the belts and then hike yourself up on the console and reach down to get the FE it takes some time that might be better used to get out of the car. If the FE is mounted behind seats in the opening between them you still have to loosen the belts and twist your body around to reach the FE. Again time that maybe better used getting out of the car. When I blew the engine on my C6Z and I thought the car was on fire the in car video showed from the time I recognized there might be a problem until I unbuckled, got out of the race seat with my helmet and HANS device on and out the door looking into the car was a total of 10 seconds. At least half of that was getting free of the seat and getting my head ducked down far enough the HANS wouldn't catch on the top of the car. I had an FE sitting in front of the passenger seat but didn't even think about using it as it was not reachable in time. I could have walked around the car and gotten the FE but the fire engine showed up about that time and I let them take care of the issue.
Buy the best system you can afford but make sure it really will be accessible when you are in an emergency and have to get out of the car. If you can't get to it and use it it really doesn't matter how good of a system it is.
Bill
Buy the best system you can afford but make sure it really will be accessible when you are in an emergency and have to get out of the car. If you can't get to it and use it it really doesn't matter how good of a system it is.
Bill
09-20-2018, 10:42 PM
#11
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: Rochester NY
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2018 C6 of Year Finalist
St. Jude Donor '10, '17
TrackAire, thanks much for the detailed write-up and info. It is very helpful, much appreciated and will be referenced. I currently also use the Element, but will add a Coldfire. I too have seen fires at the paddock, and I watched a C6Z burn outside of garage stall 1 at Watkins Glen this year from a ruptured fuel line that didn't ignite until he got off the track and stopped in the paddock.
09-21-2018, 03:46 AM
#12
Thanks Mordeth. I'm not an expert at this and am learning about different systems due to a couple of in car fires I saw that were absolutely terrifying and figured I'd better educate myself a little on this. Luckily my fire fighting friend brought up a lot of good points that I hadn't thought of and the key is we drive street based cars even though we are on the track. I'm trying to post the most correct info but if any firefighters have different views, experiences or newer info I'm all ears. There is no perfect solution but at least thinking about the potential issues is a good start.
One thing about the Element to think about is the way it strikes to ignite. I've not used one yet, but it appears to be very similar to a road flare and uses the same type of striker and chemical that a road flare uses. About 4 years ago I was teaching my daughter what do in case of an emergency on the road and if road flares had to be deployed. I was going to take a couple of flares and have her physically strike them so she understood the process. Well I reached for the flares that were stored in my truck for the last 5 years for just such an emergency and proceeded to try and ignite one to show her how it's done. The chemical "button" that the striker is suppose to ignite just crumbled away. Hmmm....I grab another flare and the same thing happened again. Out of the 6 flares that I had in my truck, 4 of them were not able to be used. I didn't think 5 years old was that old....maybe I got some bum flares, I don't know. But the point is if the striker chemical blob that is supposed to ignite breaks off or crumbles, you might be SOL. I'm hoping that the quality of the Element is much higher than a standard road flare since it could be a life or death situation, but just keep that in mind. When Element says it can last indefinitely you have to take that with a grain of salt as our cars are subject to everything from super cold temps to very hot temps inside the car. In those conditions, nothing lasts forever so maybe consider swapping out the Element every 5 or 6 years to be on the safe side. After watching a couple of videos on the Element, one of the potential pluses is you can ignite it and literally toss it on top of the engine and lower the hood and start either another fire fighting process or start emptying the car as this may buy you more time before an engine fire starts working its way through the firewall. For the Element to work the unit has to be very close to the fire.....you can't shoot it at the flames from 7 or 8 feet away.
Here are some cool videos of in car suppression systems....the new eco friendly Halon gas replacement option should allow you to breathe even if the cabin is filled with the fire suppression gas (at least according to the video):
Here is a fire suppression system from OMP that appears at least to me to use a foam type suppressant. They activate it on purpose to show how it works. Looks like a thin layer of shave cream:
Last is this video that was sent to me today by an off roading friend just by coincidence....I'm my opinion this guy did just about everything you could do right when your vehicle catches fire and it was still a disaster. He was alone out in the desert....he kept his cool way better than I think I would have. The fire starts at about the 10 minute mark of the video.....although not a track situation it is a very good video to watch for life in general. You never know when the SHTF, lol:
One thing about the Element to think about is the way it strikes to ignite. I've not used one yet, but it appears to be very similar to a road flare and uses the same type of striker and chemical that a road flare uses. About 4 years ago I was teaching my daughter what do in case of an emergency on the road and if road flares had to be deployed. I was going to take a couple of flares and have her physically strike them so she understood the process. Well I reached for the flares that were stored in my truck for the last 5 years for just such an emergency and proceeded to try and ignite one to show her how it's done. The chemical "button" that the striker is suppose to ignite just crumbled away. Hmmm....I grab another flare and the same thing happened again. Out of the 6 flares that I had in my truck, 4 of them were not able to be used. I didn't think 5 years old was that old....maybe I got some bum flares, I don't know. But the point is if the striker chemical blob that is supposed to ignite breaks off or crumbles, you might be SOL. I'm hoping that the quality of the Element is much higher than a standard road flare since it could be a life or death situation, but just keep that in mind. When Element says it can last indefinitely you have to take that with a grain of salt as our cars are subject to everything from super cold temps to very hot temps inside the car. In those conditions, nothing lasts forever so maybe consider swapping out the Element every 5 or 6 years to be on the safe side. After watching a couple of videos on the Element, one of the potential pluses is you can ignite it and literally toss it on top of the engine and lower the hood and start either another fire fighting process or start emptying the car as this may buy you more time before an engine fire starts working its way through the firewall. For the Element to work the unit has to be very close to the fire.....you can't shoot it at the flames from 7 or 8 feet away.
Here are some cool videos of in car suppression systems....the new eco friendly Halon gas replacement option should allow you to breathe even if the cabin is filled with the fire suppression gas (at least according to the video):
Here is a fire suppression system from OMP that appears at least to me to use a foam type suppressant. They activate it on purpose to show how it works. Looks like a thin layer of shave cream:
Last is this video that was sent to me today by an off roading friend just by coincidence....I'm my opinion this guy did just about everything you could do right when your vehicle catches fire and it was still a disaster. He was alone out in the desert....he kept his cool way better than I think I would have. The fire starts at about the 10 minute mark of the video.....although not a track situation it is a very good video to watch for life in general. You never know when the SHTF, lol:
09-21-2018, 12:20 PM
#13
Le Mans Master
Interesting. I was the first person to comment on the SportsCar Mag video eight years ago.
I too have considered fire ramifications in my race car amply. I suppose that is why I have two separate systems for redundancy and purpose. I figure in a bad shunt one could be damaged, particularly the lines. Second, is purpose and qualities of different systems.
My halon I figure will dissipate more broadly than foam that only works where the nozzle is pointed. If I am still rolling, I can activate the halon while coming to a stop and still see out the windshield as foam could obscure view. My halon can be manually activated by me, or it will auto discharge at 155 degrees.
My foam system is from ESS. I can recharge the system myself at the track if required for about $70. I have done this twice, once because of an accidental discharge, and the other when I broke a brake fluid line and got a fire. I was not reluctant to pull the handle for that small fire as I knew it would not end my weekend. With only one fire system of the non-rechargeable type my weekend racing would have ended and I was about 800 miles from home. I also figure the foam will cool the fire ignition source and also douse me to keep me cool while I get out of the car. If there are fluids, the foam will cover them somewhat to mitigate flames. Also, I have added grip tape to the driver side floor of my car as any foam there is going to make it slippery and harder for me to evacuate the race car. This system is set to auto discharge at 185 degrees.
http://www.essfire.com/5_0_liter.php
Some other notes and observations:
I hope my input and experience is helpful.
I too have considered fire ramifications in my race car amply. I suppose that is why I have two separate systems for redundancy and purpose. I figure in a bad shunt one could be damaged, particularly the lines. Second, is purpose and qualities of different systems.
My halon I figure will dissipate more broadly than foam that only works where the nozzle is pointed. If I am still rolling, I can activate the halon while coming to a stop and still see out the windshield as foam could obscure view. My halon can be manually activated by me, or it will auto discharge at 155 degrees.
My foam system is from ESS. I can recharge the system myself at the track if required for about $70. I have done this twice, once because of an accidental discharge, and the other when I broke a brake fluid line and got a fire. I was not reluctant to pull the handle for that small fire as I knew it would not end my weekend. With only one fire system of the non-rechargeable type my weekend racing would have ended and I was about 800 miles from home. I also figure the foam will cool the fire ignition source and also douse me to keep me cool while I get out of the car. If there are fluids, the foam will cover them somewhat to mitigate flames. Also, I have added grip tape to the driver side floor of my car as any foam there is going to make it slippery and harder for me to evacuate the race car. This system is set to auto discharge at 185 degrees.
http://www.essfire.com/5_0_liter.php
Some other notes and observations:
- I have auto-discharge on both systems in preparation that a shunt might be so hard I am knocked unconscious or unable to respond appropriately.
- I had a blown engine and fire at Laguna Seca and I only had foam nozzles under the hood. It only slowed the fire and the track fire fighters were very slow in arriving to the top of the Cork Screw where i pulled off. There was still considerable fire damage.
- I am a father/husband first, businessman second and racer third so I will carry a few extra pounds for fire suppression.
- I know this conversation is mainly about mobile fire extinguishers, but I thought I would add my thoughts on in-car systems.
- I just got two Element fire extinguishers I plan to put in both race cars. Having a handheld unit would have helped me direct fire suppression right at the source of the fire, the same would have been true for the brake fluid fire. Another reason for a hand held unit is that a fellow racer had an off at a track with a lot of brush in the infield. As he sat there the car ignited the brush and his car started to burn. He said a hand held unit would have kept the fire at bay until the track fire fighters got there.
- The new halon does not seem to choke, but as directions say, it did make me hoarse for a couple of days.
I hope my input and experience is helpful.
