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Making adjustments without a lift is a real pain to the bottom adjusters with the wheels on, but with the wheels off, you can adjust and check very quickly. I use shims on the upper arms, but this works great both ways.
Forgive the crude design, I made this as a I wonder if this will work kinda project. The block height is set so the hub center is the same as when the wheels are on the ground. Use plastic bags under the rear wheels. Have two of these, do the front end first then the rear. Added the side retainer 1x2 to help keep the car from sliding off, it's very slick on the teflon when you put a few drops of motor oil on them. They are just cut down cutting boards.
Excellent idea. If I didn't have a lift, this is without a doubt the method that I would use. It's by far the easiest and most practical DIY idea that I've seen for setting toe on a Corvette (assuming the coefficient of friction is acceptable).
You could make it circular for adjusting caster and camber which is not really possible in the existing design.
Kudos man.
Just need to add (or make) some hub munt toe plates like this:
Excellent idea. If I didn't have a lift, this is without a doubt the method that I would use. It's by far the easiest and most practical DIY idea that I've seen for setting toe on a Corvette (assuming the coefficient of friction is acceptable).
You could make it circular for adjusting caster and camber which is not really possible in the existing design.
Kudos man.
Just need to add (or make) some hub munt toe plates like this:
The aluminum bar is spaced out for the toe adjustment with a ruler on the front and back of the bar. I check camber with a digital angle gauge on the steel plate that the wheel studs go through, caster is calculated easily as turning the wheel is easy when on the blocks. With having coil overs, there is very minimal droop in the suspension so you only have to jack the car up a few inches to unload the upper a arms to loosen to add or subtract shims. Setting up my strings parallel is the part that takes the longest out of the whole process to set toe. Really it only takes an hour all said and done.
How would you set or check thrust with the tape measure across the bottom of the car?
Laser.
I've posted my technique a hundred times here on the forum if you want to search for it. It's super easy, accurate and fast.
All you need is two 4-foot levels, four short sections of 2x4, two tape measures, a ruler and a laser level.
Froggy, works the same as your old C5. You need to pull the dog bones to remove the washers then you can just slip shims behind the dog bones for adjustments.
I used the camber plates to rough in the alignment then fine tune with the shims (Harbor freight)
Froggy, works the same as your old C5. You need to pull the dog bones to remove the washers then you can just slip shims behind the dog bones for adjustments.
I used the camber plates to rough in the alignment then fine tune with the shims (Harbor freight)
OK, if I build these "hub stands", then take my measure, do I jack it up off the stand a little to take tension off the UCA studs?
i have been doing my own alignment for ages and i have the impression most people really complicate things (strings, contraptions etc.). you really only need two digital angle gauges and two or three aluminum straight edges (that you have anyway). but its imperative to precisely calibrate the gauges, one for vertical, the other for horizontal. (the chinese stuff repeats but precision is less than 0.5°.) you absolutely have to shim the tires. think about it: if the floor is 0.1° off, you get a difference of 0.2° in camber. 0.5° you can see by eye.
edit: btw, castor = 180/pi x delta camb./delta toe.
The aluminum bar is spaced out for the toe adjustment with a ruler on the front and back of the bar. I check camber with a digital angle gauge on the steel plate that the wheel studs go through, caster is calculated easily as turning the wheel is easy when on the blocks. With having coil overs, there is very minimal droop in the suspension so you only have to jack the car up a few inches to unload the upper a arms to loosen to add or subtract shims. Setting up my strings parallel is the part that takes the longest out of the whole process to set toe. Really it only takes an hour all said and done.
To speed up the toe process I would make the follow changes. This will cut down the setup time and also improve accuracy and error allowance.First we need to center the steering wheel. (with my C6 I set the steering wheel sensor to read 0 degrees) Then measure if each wheel is the same side to side from the rear axle. In the pictures below I am using / checking the rear thrust angle, but the same applies to the front setup. Mount the laser on the front hub and measure the distance from the rear hub. Measure both sides. If they are equal and the steering wheel is centered then you have equal toe on both wheels. If they are not equal then adjust either side until they are equal. At this point YOU DONT CARE what the actual toe measurement is AS LONG AS THEY ARE EQUAL. From this point on you will be adjusting for total toe making equal adjustments on both sides. Turing each adjusting rod equal rotations.
Here is were the time saving will come from.
Then setup the measuring bar / Tapes similar to the picture below. The yellow 4' levels are only used as equal length spacers away from the tires. With the tires on the car this takes less than a minute because you use the tires
as the reference point to space the bars parallel to the front axle. For you the trick is finding a reference point with the wheels off but I would suggest using a plumbob at the rotor center, mark the spot on the floor, and then place the spacers edge to edge and front and back to make them parallel to the front axle. It will look similar to the picture below, but the yellow levels will be touching each other spacing the measuring bar equal from the center of the rotor.
That will be your total setup time. Should take less than 2 minutes. Then place a laser level on the bar mounted to your hub pointing forward and see where the laser points too.
My example it points to 908mm ( using metric system is easier than converting fractions to decimals but I will show you how you can use either. )
Next reverse the laser to point in the other direction.
Then move the measuring bar until it reads the same starting point. Then move the laser to the other side and take readings.
So if pointing forward it read 2790 and pointing to the rear it reads 2795 you have a difference of 5mm.Measure the distance between the 2 measuring bars. ex 2764mm. You can also check how parallel your setup is by measuring each side they should be the same.
Now you can calculate total toe angle which equals the inverse tangent of (5mm/2764) = 0.10364 degrees. which is ~ 3/64th total toe.
So here is where the accuracy and margin of error come from.
Lets say you measure the distance of your bar from a string and we will use a 1/32" difference front to back.
If your measuring bar is a total length of 20" the best reading you can get isinverse tan of 1/32" = 0.3125 / 20 = 0.08952 degrees per wheel x 2 for a total toe of 0.179 degrees = for a 26.5 dia wheel = 0.0828" = ~ 2-3 /32nd's total toe.
Also lets say your judgement of the distance from the string was poor and one reading should have been 2/32nds from the string the error becomes even more. So how do you make it possible to measure / setup 1/32nd total toe. Well you cannot do it using strings using simple measuring tools, there is too much judgement involved .
So the next option is to use a tape measure front and back of the wheels and provided you can get equal slack on the tape measure and judge the reading on the tape the same each time you can get 1/32nd total toe.So the key to increase accuracy and remove judgement error is to increase the measuring distance front vs rear.
So in my example using lasers let look at the same issues. First if we measured a difference of 5mm total toe, which = 0.10364 degrees = ~ 1 - 2 /32nd's or 3/64th's total toeSo lets say you made a error placing the bar off or a piece of dirt went under the laser and the pointer was off by 2mm on one reading. so instead of reading 2795 it read 2997 so a total difference of 7mm vs 5 mm.so inverse tan of 7mm / 2764mm = 0.1451 total toe which is ~ 4/64th total toe or 2/32nd total toe. when the original calculation was 3/64th total toe.
So my point is how every you measure toe doesn't matter, but the margin of error increases the shorter the distance you measure from. So using strings to the rim @ ~ 15-20" rim size has a lot of possible error.
When I use lasers pointing to measuring bars at 2764mm distance I can increase the precision and reduce the margin of error at the same time. The setup is quick because you are using a jig setup placed against know reference points and the setup is the same each time.
So once you start using this method all you need to do is create a chart of the difference measurements.
eg chart 1 thur 10mm over your measuring distance (2764)so lets say you want to setup for 1/32" total toe.
Your chart will show you need total 0.0676 total toe. ( 1/32nd Total Toe)
Which would be a setup for a 3mm difference in reading. 2790 front reading vs 2793 rear reading.
you can make the same chart using 1/32nd or 1/64th inch measurements. Its only the difference between the 2 readings you care about. I have made a spreadsheet that makes all the calculations, but I don't use it anymore since I setup my car for 0-3mm difference now.
Once you have the chart you don't need to do any math ever again. Your jig setup will be the same (2764mm) Parallel to the axle. So lets say you wanted to check your toe settings to see if it has changed from the previous track day. Leave the wheels on the car and setup as my picture. up against the tires. Setup time less than 1 minute.
Use a mounting bar attached to the rim, point forward and measure, point backward and set to the same measurement.
Then move to the other wheel, point forward record reading, point backward record reading,
subtract the 2 readings and look at your chart or just remember it should be 3mm and your done. This takes me ~ 5 minutes.
Last edited by cagotzmann; 12-15-2018 at 09:49 PM.
To speed up the toe process I would make the follow changes. This will cut down the setup time and also improve accuracy and error allowance.First we need to center the steering wheel. (with my C6 I set the steering wheel sensor to read 0 degrees) Then measure if each wheel is the same side to side from the rear axle. In the pictures below I am using / checking the rear thrust angle, but the same applies to the front setup. Mount the laser on the front hub and measure the distance from the rear hub. Measure both sides. If they are equal and the steering wheel is centered then you have equal toe on both wheels. If they are not equal then adjust either side until they are equal. At this point YOU DONT CARE what the actual toe measurement is AS LONG AS THEY ARE EQUAL. From this point on you will be adjusting for total toe making equal adjustments on both sides. Turing each adjusting rod equal rotations.
Here is were the time saving will come from.
Then setup the measuring bar / Tapes similar to the picture below. The yellow 4' levels are only used as equal length spacers away from the tires. With the tires on the car this takes less than a minute because you use the tires
as the reference point to space the bars parallel to the front axle. For you the trick is finding a reference point with the wheels off but I would suggest using a plumbob at the rotor center, mark the spot on the floor, and then place the spacers edge to edge and front and back to make them parallel to the front axle. It will look similar to the picture below, but the yellow levels will be touching each other spacing the measuring bar equal from the center of the rotor.
That will be your total setup time. Should take less than 2 minutes. Then place a laser level on the bar mounted to your hub pointing forward and see where the laser points too.
My example it points to 908mm ( using metric system is easier than converting fractions to decimals but I will show you how you can use either. )
Next reverse the laser to point in the other direction.
Then move the measuring bar until it reads the same starting point. Then move the laser to the other side and take readings.
So if pointing forward it read 2790 and pointing to the rear it reads 2795 you have a difference of 5mm.Measure the distance between the 2 measuring bars. ex 2764mm. You can also check how parallel your setup is by measuring each side they should be the same.
Now you can calculate total toe angle which equals the inverse tangent of (5mm/2764) = 0.10364 degrees. which is ~ 3/64th total toe.
So here is where the accuracy and margin of error come from.
Lets say you measure the distance of your bar from a string and we will use a 1/32" difference front to back.
If your measuring bar is a total length of 20" the best reading you can get isinverse tan of 1/32" = 0.3125 / 20 = 0.08952 degrees per wheel x 2 for a total toe of 0.179 degrees = for a 26.5 dia wheel = 0.0828" = ~ 2-3 /32nd's total toe.
Also lets say your judgement of the distance from the string was poor and one reading should have been 2/32nds from the string the error becomes even more. So how do you make it possible to measure / setup 1/32nd total toe. Well you cannot do it using strings using simple measuring tools, there is too much judgement involved .
So the next option is to use a tape measure front and back of the wheels and provided you can get equal slack on the tape measure and judge the reading on the tape the same each time you can get 1/32nd total toe.So the key to increase accuracy and remove judgement error is to increase the measuring distance front vs rear.
So in my example using lasers let look at the same issues. First if we measured a difference of 5mm total toe, which = 0.10364 degrees = ~ 1 - 2 /32nd's or 3/64th's total toeSo lets say you made a error placing the bar off or a piece of dirt went under the laser and the pointer was off by 2mm on one reading. so instead of reading 2795 it read 2997 so a total difference of 7mm vs 5 mm.so inverse tan of 7mm / 2764mm = 0.1451 total toe which is ~ 4/64th total toe or 2/32nd total toe. when the original calculation was 3/64th total toe.
So my point is how every you measure toe doesn't matter, but the margin of error increases the shorter the distance you measure from. So using strings to the rim @ ~ 15-20" rim size has a lot of possible error.
When I use lasers pointing to measuring bars at 2764mm distance I can reduce the precision and reduce the margin of error at the same time. The setup is quick because you are using a jig setup placed against know reference points and the setup is the same each time.
So once you start using this method all you need to do is create a chart of the difference measurements.
eg chart 1 thur 10mm over your measuring distance (2764)so lets say you want to setup for 1/32" total toe.
Your chart will show you need total 0.0676 total toe. ( 1/32nd Total Toe)
Which would be a setup for a 3mm difference in reading. 2790 front reading vs 2793 rear reading.
you can make the same chart using 1/32nd or 1/64th inch measurements. Its only the difference between the 2 readings you care about. I have made a spreadsheet that makes all the calculations, but I don't use it anymore since I setup my car for 0-3mm difference now.
Once you have the chart you don't need to do any math ever again. Your jig setup will be the same (2764mm) Parallel to the axle. So lets say you wanted to check your toe settings to see if it has changed from the previous track day. Leave the wheels on the car and setup as my picture. up against the tires. Setup time less than 1 minute.
Use a mounting bar attached to the rim, point forward and measure, point backward and set to the same measurement.
Then move to the other wheel, point forward record reading, point backward record reading,
subtract the 2 readings and look at your chart or just remember it should be 3mm and your done. This takes me ~ 5 minutes.
This is a perfect explication, thank you very much. Will definitely try this method next.
@kagotz: again, i hope you somehow calibrated your laser contraption. these thingies have a precision of less than 1 mm/m (usually) and mounted like yours it could really be anything.
I have done string/toe alignments many times & could not agree more, setting up the strings takes forever. I am going to try toe plates.
Is there any cheap source for toe plates? Not the kind that you use with tires on, but the kind shown above. I do not have the means to PRECISION cut the alum parts.
@kagotz: again, i hope you somehow calibrated your laser contraption. these thingies have a precision of less than 1 mm/m (usually) and mounted like yours it could really be anything.
that part is easy simply flip it top to bottom if the laser point doesn’t move it is perfect
@kagotz: again, i hope you somehow calibrated your laser contraption. these thingies have a precision of less than 1 mm/m (usually) and mounted like yours it could really be anything.
The nice part about this process is it doesn't matter because the distance being measured is the same for all positions therefor the error of the laser is consistent for all placements. In my case the laser can only be positioned 1 way so I always have the same orientation. If the unit can be positioned in multiple positions then mark the orientation so you use the same position each time and therefor the error will be consistent.
Now if you use 2 laser pointers etc it also doesn't matter as long as you use 1 for the left side and 1 for the right side. Remember we only need the difference and not the actual measurement. And you can also have a error of 2mm over 2764mm and you are only out by 1/64th" total toe.
But lets say the laser is out by 1mm (pointing high to level) over the 1382mm half of the total distance (2764) . So on the left side you set the measuring rulers = 908mm . If the laser was perfect the actual reading should be 907mm, but the other side will read also 907mm because the error is consistent. The only time you need to know the calibration is when the distance you measure is not the same in both directions.
So I will use 2 examples
1. Perfect Level
2. Level off by 2mm over 5760mm actual distance to measure is 2764mm / 2.
Case 1
Left side set to 908mm both directions
Right side reads 2790 & 2795 5mm difference = inv tan 5/2764 = 0.10364 degrees total toe.
Case 2 laser is off by .48mm over a 2764/2 distance.
Left side set to 908mm both directions but actual reading should be 907.52mm but they are relative so nothing changes.
Right side 2790 should read as 2789.52mm and 2794.52 its still a 5mm difference. AGAIN IT DOSEN"T MATTER as long as the orientation is consistent and the distance is the same.
Last edited by cagotzmann; 12-16-2018 at 05:17 PM.
I have done string/toe alignments many times & could not agree more, setting up the strings takes forever. I am going to try toe plates.
Is there any cheap source for toe plates? Not the kind that you use with tires on, but the kind shown above. I do not have the means to PRECISION cut the alum parts.
I use a different approach. Since the setup and measurement happens very quickly with the tires on, I chart how much a 1/4 turn of each tie rod adjuster turn effects total toe.
So It would look something like this. lets say 1/4 turn on each tie rod adjuster = 1/32" total toe. For the rear with my 78 its shim thickness moved from inner to outer position.
1 First check your thrust angle. For the front center the steering wheel and measure each wheel relative to the rear axle. Adjust the tie rod adjuster to make both side equal. (don't care about total toe, just make it equal.)
2 Measure the current toe alignment example current is 3/32' total toe but you want zero (0) toe then turn each tie rod adjuster 3/4 turn.
3.Then I drive and re-measure. The most time spent is the actual adjustment, but because you know a approximate adjustment amount you usually only make 1 adjustment.
Now for those people where you car spends most of the time at the track you can also tell how tight your suspension parts are by doing the following procedure.
1. Drive you car around the block and into position (dry payment) and take your camber and toe measurements. This should take 15 minutes.
2. Then drive onto skid plates or anything that allows the suspension steering with zero friction. I use Teflon cooking sheets with grease between. Take measurements again.
The difference is a good indicator on how tight your suspension & steering is. Because you can do this complete procedure in less than 1 hour you don't mind checking.
I have found bad ball joints and control arm bushings because the total toe varied by more than 1/4" while other methods of testing they tested / looked ok.
Last edited by cagotzmann; 12-16-2018 at 05:19 PM.
12-12-2018, 11:55 AM
