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The people that I have talked to say there is no comparison between the C5/C6 and the C7; the C7 is a much better platform.
I have only driven a base C7 once for two laps at ACS about four years ago or so. Is it really a much different and superior platform or is it really just a superior electronics set in the stability control system and diff?
I have a 2018 GS as a dedicated track car that I keep at Spring Mountain where I have a membership. Stock 1LT, no option car. 18x11 and 18x12.5 wheels and I run Pirelli scrubs. I have about 2K miles on the track. Even when it was 110F+ temperatures were at the upper end of reasonable after a twenty minute session. The car is really a lot of fun and incredibly competitive for less than $60K total investment. The weak spot is definitely the brakes. I have nearly plowed into the back of a GT3 that I was trying to get around that a slower driver just over braked. When I'm driving like an a**hole and over-braking I have had the brake pedal go to the floor. I've learned to give up a couple of seconds a lap and spend a helluva lot less on brake pads. I may upgrade the brakes at some point. The rear end of the C7s are pretty loose and when they start to come around, they come around quickly and you tend to loose a lot of speed, especially off the throttle. Some aero for the rear is in my near future. On the long straight at Spring Mountain, if I'm on the rear of a GT3 or a Z06 exiting turn 7, they will only pick up 3-4 car lengths at the end of the straight. More power may make the car more fun to drive but it is not likely to make you much faster. After hearing some of the C7 exhausts at the Porsche Club event there a couple of weeks ago, I definitely plan to do that. Just so I can hear what the engine is doing
I will probably strip the interior of all the unnecessary stuff my next trip down. Reducing weight will have the biggest effect on making the car go faster IMO.
The people that I have talked to say there is no comparison between the C5/C6 and the C7; the C7 is a much better platform.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (track prepared)
C7 of Year Winner (track prepared) 2019
C7 has been a great base for a track car a little to much electronic crap.
Comparing stability control and TC I can’t really do as I’m not using them
the car out of the box is very under steery which can be helped with aero, suspension and corner balancing
as for the guy who’s brakes aren’t enough I would want to know what fluid and pads and what spring mountain track configuration most frequently driven
I have a 2018 GS as a dedicated track car that I keep at Spring Mountain where I have a membership. Stock 1LT, no option car. 18x11 and 18x12.5 wheels and I run Pirelli scrubs. I have about 2K miles on the track. Even when it was 110F+ temperatures were at the upper end of reasonable after a twenty minute session. The car is really a lot of fun and incredibly competitive for less than $60K total investment. The weak spot is definitely the brakes. I have nearly plowed into the back of a GT3 that I was trying to get around that a slower driver just over braked. When I'm driving like an a**hole and over-braking I have had the brake pedal go to the floor. I've learned to give up a couple of seconds a lap and spend a helluva lot less on brake pads. I may upgrade the brakes at some point. The rear end of the C7s are pretty loose and when they start to come around, they come around quickly and you tend to loose a lot of speed, especially off the throttle. Some aero for the rear is in my near future. On the long straight at Spring Mountain, if I'm on the rear of a GT3 or a Z06 exiting turn 7, they will only pick up 3-4 car lengths at the end of the straight. More power may make the car more fun to drive but it is not likely to make you much faster. After hearing some of the C7 exhausts at the Porsche Club event there a couple of weeks ago, I definitely plan to do that. Just so I can hear what the engine is doing
I will probably strip the interior of all the unnecessary stuff my next trip down. Reducing weight will have the biggest effect on making the car go faster IMO.
The people that I have talked to say there is no comparison between the C5/C6 and the C7; the C7 is a much better platform.
See this is odd. I have a stock z51 on stock size tires and to me the rear is veeeeery controllable on both supersports, hankook r-s3s and r888rs. -2.2
front and -1.8 rear with slight toe in (street car, toe out was annoying).
I highly doubt the stock grand sport brakes aren't enough with the correct pads and fluid. If it's pedal to the floor you might want to rethink your braking and the fluid you're using and how often you're bleeding /replacing the fluid.
I've owned a highly modified C6 Z06 and 4 (soon to be 5) C7s. I don't know if it's the better aero, the ediff, the steering, chassis stiffening, or some other change but for me I felt like they all were much easier to drive at the limit on track. It's not a function of the AH because I typically run with that off or if on in Sport 1 it doesn't really intervene. I think PTM helps (queue HeavyChevy to tell me I'm wrong ) but it's more about how confidence inspiriting the chassis is and the ability to place it where you want it on track.
I've owned a highly modified C6 Z06 and 4 (soon to be 5) C7s. I don't know if it's the better aero, the ediff, the steering, chassis stiffening, or some other change but for me I felt like they all were much easier to drive at the limit on track. It's not a function of the AH because I typically run with that off or if on in Sport 1 it doesn't really intervene. I think PTM helps (queue HeavyChevy to tell me I'm wrong ) but it's more about how confidence inspiriting the chassis is and the ability to place it where you want it on track.
I'll definitely be going with AP Racing brakes.
Is this a typo? Sport 1?
Sport 1 is very intrusive. I overheat the brakes immediately in sport 1. Wayyyy too intrusive. Heck, Race 2 is intrusive. You really cant rotate the car like you can with it in Race or completely off.
Removing a few hundred pounds, I really don't think you'll need to upgrade factory brakes for a while :: Aftermarket can certainly make improvements for weight and stuff, but it seems like a lot of money for minor gains.
Last edited by village idiot; 12-01-2018 at 12:42 PM.
Sport 1 is very intrusive. I overheat the brakes immediately in sport 1. Wayyyy too intrusive. Heck, Race 2 is intrusive. You really cant rotate the car like you can with it in Race or completely off.
Removing a few hundred pounds, I really don't think you'll need to upgrade factory brakes for a while :: Aftermarket can certainly make improvements for weight and stuff, but it seems like a lot of money for minor gains.
Must be a driving style thing because I can do a lot in Track - Sport 1 and I see very little difference between Track - Sport 2 and Track - Race.
Must be a driving style thing because I can do a lot in Track - Sport 1 and I see very little difference between Track - Sport 2 and Track - Race.
There is a WORLD of difference. I can't even get around in sport 1. It's not as noticable because TC has gotten really good at being smooth, but man does it limit you in corner speed and exit.
I actually learned some very bad habits from driving in sport 1 at Spring Mountain. I knew it was there and would just lean into it and let it limit me, since I knew that was the limit (if that makes sense). Sport 1 seriously limits the ability to rotate the car and slide a little, which you need to do to go fast.
I'd strongly suggest going to sport 2 and then up to race. It's not a "style" thing. Sport 1 is horribly limiting.
I'm far from a pro driver and I can feel (and hear) race mode cutting throttle from me from time to time. I'm easily 2 seconds faster from sport 1 to sport 2 and probably half a second faster from sport 2 to race (though a good driver is probably a full second faster from sport 2 to race).
There is a WORLD of difference. I can't even get around in sport 1. It's not as noticable because TC has gotten really good at being smooth, but man does it limit you in corner speed and exit.
I actually learned some very bad habits from driving in sport 1 at Spring Mountain. I knew it was there and would just lean into it and let it limit me, since I knew that was the limit (if that makes sense). Sport 1 seriously limits the ability to rotate the car and slide a little, which you need to do to go fast.
I'd strongly suggest going to sport 2 and then up to race. It's not a "style" thing. Sport 1 is horribly limiting.
I'm far from a pro driver and I can feel (and hear) race mode cutting throttle from me from time to time. I'm easily 2 seconds faster from sport 1 to sport 2 and probably half a second faster from sport 2 to race (though a good driver is probably a full second faster from sport 2 to race).
I wonder if this is a function of the different tires and maybe alignment between the two cars. My assumption is... "Higher grip tires should reduce corner-exit intervention and thus could contribute to Poor-sha seeing a smaller difference between the various PTM-Track modes." We know the Cup2's are the max grip tires that the factory uses for calibrations and I've been told that they fall off after a handful of laps. Therefore it would makes sense that intervention of the lower PTM-modes be slightly more aggressive to account for the eventual perceived lack of grip.
I use Spring Mountain for my service (which is awesome btw) and they run the Hawk pads. I had them replace the rears my last trip out with a "more aggressive" compound and they seemed a bit better. I'll try the same on the fronts and hope for a bit more.
C7 has been a great base for a track car a little to much electronic crap.
Comparing stability control and TC I can’t really do as I’m not using them
the car out of the box is very under steery which can be helped with aero, suspension and corner balancing
as for the guy who’s brakes aren’t enough I would want to know what fluid and pads and what spring mountain track configuration most frequently driven
What Spring Mountain uses for pads and fluid. I've driven a lot of different configurations at Spring Mountain. Most recently Mansel B (I think) during the Porsche club event. I've had the pedal go to the floor going into ego check braking from about 125 and again at exit 28. A Z06 at that event had trouble at ego check, exited the track and hit the wall hard. He got a helicopter ride and it looked like his car was totaled. They only have 2 braking markers there and they are both pretty deep. If your still turning a little right when you get hard on the brakes, the rear wants to come around to the left.
I wonder if this is a function of the different tires and maybe alignment between the two cars. My assumption is... "Higher grip tires should reduce corner-exit intervention and thus could contribute to Poor-sha seeing a smaller difference between the various PTM-Track modes." We know the Cup2's are the max grip tires that the factory uses for calibrations and I've been told that they fall off after a handful of laps. Therefore it would makes sense that intervention of the lower PTM-modes be slightly more aggressive to account for the eventual perceived lack of grip.
I don't have PDR and I don't very often keep track of my lap times but I usually run Sport 1 or Sport 2. I'm not trying to win any races, just have fun and learn, tracking a car is fairly new to me. My experience is that if the rear steps out, especially under power, I've lost time. The one spot I usually let the rear slide is braking into patience. You can back it in there and the slide helps you pivot to the apex at the far end of the corner. I would say that the PTM has saved my butt over-cooking it into turn 6 (left before the long straight) and into pahrump 2. I run the Pirelli scrubs and the quality of the grip can vary greatly from tire to tire and as they heat cycle out. I'm cheap and I usually run them to the cords.
Last edited by Youngwerth; 12-01-2018 at 05:25 PM.
I use Spring Mountain for my service (which is awesome btw) and they run the Hawk pads. I had them replace the rears my last trip out with a "more aggressive" compound and they seemed a bit better. I'll try the same on the fronts and hope for a bit more.
Very fast guys here in Texas run something like Carbotech X12 (maybe 12/10 or something like that) at COTA and ECR- the tracks hardest on brakes I've ever heard of, without problem. If your foot is going to the floor, you have a brake fluid problem. Tell them to use SRF. Stock brakes with good race pads and SRF should never overheat like that.
Originally Posted by truth.b
I wonder if this is a function of the different tires and maybe alignment between the two cars. My assumption is... "Higher grip tires should reduce corner-exit intervention and thus could contribute to Poor-sha seeing a smaller difference between the various PTM-Track modes." We know the Cup2's are the max grip tires that the factory uses for calibrations and I've been told that they fall off after a handful of laps. Therefore it would makes sense that intervention of the lower PTM-modes be slightly more aggressive to account for the eventual perceived lack of grip.
If anything, if the car factors in maximum grip into its TC calculus, the car would be MORE intrusive when he needed it LESS. IE: If cup2 can do 1.25G and slicks can do 1.75G, it's going to freak out at 1.5G when he was plenty of grip left. I'm not sure they'd do it based on total G's though. That's pretty silly. I can pull more G's in some turns on street tires than slicks in others. A turn with good compression, camber and grip will pull a lot of g's where a downhill, off camber turn won't. It would be silly to set a maximum G or something. It's almost certainly done by wheel speed differential and accelerometers in the car detecting slip.
You need SOME slip for best lap times. You actually want the momentum of the rear to bring the rear around while you have the wheel straight coming out of a turn. Sport 1 certainly doesn't let that happen. Sport 2 stops most of it.
Originally Posted by Youngwerth
What Spring Mountain uses for pads and fluid. I've driven a lot of different configurations at Spring Mountain. Most recently Mansel B (I think) during the Porsche club event. I've had the pedal go to the floor going into ego check braking from about 125 and again at exit 28. A Z06 at that event had trouble at ego check, exited the track and hit the wall hard. He got a helicopter ride and it looked like his car was totaled. They only have 2 braking markers there and they are both pretty deep. If your still turning a little right when you get hard on the brakes, the rear wants to come around to the left.
I'd stop using whatever they use and go to SRF. You may have a higher tolerance for crashing into walls than me though.
I've owned a highly modified C6 Z06 and 4 (soon to be 5) C7s. I don't know if it's the better aero, the ediff, the steering, chassis stiffening, or some other change but for me I felt like they all were much easier to drive at the limit on track. It's not a function of the AH because I typically run with that off or if on in Sport 1 it doesn't really intervene. I think PTM helps (queue HeavyChevy to tell me I'm wrong ) but it's more about how confidence inspiriting the chassis is and the ability to place it where you want it on track.
If you leave it on, I think PTM makes a big difference in terms of making the car easier to drive. There is a whole chunk of car control that doesn't need to be learned if PTM is there to manage power delivery.
If you leave it on, I think PTM makes a big difference in terms of making the car easier to drive. There is a whole chunk of car control that doesn't need to be learned if PTM is there to manage power delivery.
Yes, but you're substantially slower if you dont learn it. I went out yesterday and ran in PTM Sport2 for maybe a lap and had to switch into race. It just doesn't let you keep any momentum.
Yes, but you're substantially slower if you dont learn it. I went out yesterday and ran in PTM Sport2 for maybe a lap and had to switch into race. It just doesn't let you keep any momentum.
Race is the same thing though, you don't really need to manage power delivery with any mode of PTM. At least you don't need to be better at managing it than if you were driving around a 150hp car. I would agree with some others - I don't think the differences between modes are massive. For sure there are certain kinds of track elements that Sport 2 won't like very much. And there are going to be elements that Race is still too conservative for. But in most cases you will win back the time because the system ensures that you don't overdo the throttle and slide around too much, which makes for a really easy car to manage.
Race is the same thing though, you don't really need to manage power delivery with any mode of PTM. At least you don't need to be better at managing it than if you were driving around a 150hp car. I would agree with some others - I don't think the differences between modes are massive. For sure there are certain kinds of track elements that Sport 2 won't like very much. And there are going to be elements that Race is still too conservative for. But in most cases you will win back the time because the system ensures that you don't overdo the throttle and slide around too much, which makes for a really easy car to manage.
This all goes back to a long debate in the C7 section where ZR1 owners thought 500hp cars were perfectly fine cars to learn to drive on and lower powered cars don't teach you things like gas and brake and you'd never really get fast driving slower cars. I'm not trying to be a sh!tbag about it, but it's the people saying 5/6/700hp cars make great cars to learn on are running in PTM 1. Yeah, anyone can manage 750hp with super intrusive traction control and ABS. It's not surprising these people feel like they're handling their cars well and learned so much- it's because the very advanced TC systems make them look like heros.
Yes, race keeps the rear tires from lighting up. It definitely interferes when I'm driving, but it's not nearly as bad as something like race 1 or even 2. I learned a lot at Spring Mountain, but I also picked up some bad habits with sport 1. Last time I was out my pro racer buddy did a session with me and noted that once I thought I had room to put power down, I was just going WOT rather than gradually laying into it. I noticed that at SM, I was just smashing into limits I knew the PTM would save me from, especially on exit. Even on entry some things I did changed.
You can't rotate the car on the brakes or really drive the car out of a turn with it on that "slightly loose, right on the edge" drive or use the momentum of the rear to swing the car around with Sport 1 or 2. You're just following a straight line with the car straight. It's a completely different kind of driving IMO (and one that is very difficult to get comfortable with to begin with, and much much much more difficult when it's a high HP car).
Last edited by village idiot; 12-04-2018 at 09:42 AM.
Clearly we're not going to agree on this just like we didn't in the other threads where this came up. Any chance we can get this thread back on the topic of building a C7 track car and take the debate over PTM to another thread?
No compromises and bang for the buck. I'd be looking at a used properly built and sorted race car. You'd have all the weak links fixed plus the car would be a lot safer for the driver. For power the Katech 427 would be cool but I would look hard at a Mast 388ci ( destroked Ls7 ) 700+ hp, 8500rpm.
11-30-2018, 09:01 AM
: Aftermarket can certainly make improvements for weight and stuff, but it seems like a lot of money for minor gains.
