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Good stuff there Scott. Why do you think an ARE or Dailey dry sump is needed? Supposedly the ZR1 has exceeded 1.9G in testing. To be honest, my experience with the aftermarket systems is that they are kind of a pain to deal with. Catch cans filling with oil, having to more oil lines to do an oil change, special startup procedures, etc.
The only life this car will ever know is WFO on the race track. I think there is a real possibility you may wind up in a racing class or TT series and the oiling system needs to be bulletproof. Dailey can do a system where the pump bolts directly to the pan eliminating a lot of lines and connections.
Again, I think you should run the first season on the nearly stock LT1 (limit engine mods to CAI, throttle body, ported intake, exhaust system, and dyno tuning) and get the other areas dialed in first. Add more power after you are really happy with the rest of the car.
im not sure if you are disagreeing, or reiterating?
on the nanny front, and there plenty of info on this, if you are past the limit, as the settings you chose and the program dictates from the sensor data present, the nannies intervene- that said, if you are on the bleeding edge limit, hypothetically, you would be as fast as is possible, and the nannies wouldn’t intervene, as you are at the limit, not exceeding the programmed envelope. The various settings allow a larger envelope, more yaw (rotation), more tire slip, more power to be put down. I hope we agree on that? If not, well, I dunno. The learning curve is difficult to test for most drivers, who pay for their hardware, and are not Randy pobst or a development driver, especially in a car that can pull a g on a skid pad and has 650hp. It takes a long time on a track to find the limit. The nannies just keep you from paying for making SOME mistakes. Will they slow hamhanded roughshod drivers (DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE NOT INTENDED TO MEAN YOU) downsometimes? Probably, because they aren’t listening to what the car is telling them. will some drivers be faster without them? Of course. But even the fastest guys seem to do a bit better w the systems developed at Ferrari, Porsche and I think in the c7 case. Ymmv, tho. And we agreed they do reward bad habits and make you look better than you are. The designers and engineers did that on purpose, they will tell you, allowing you to safely “access” more of the cars potential ����*♂️
That's not accurate. The car needs to slip a little bit.You need to rotate the car, which freaks out PTM, even PTM 2. You want to come out of turns with the momentum of the car rotating it and the front wheels straight(er). All these things freak PTM out. If you drove on the absolute cusp of engaging PTM 1 or 2, you wouldn't be a rolling chicane or anything, but you're a ways off being fast. PTM 2 to race is easily 1.5 seconds for me. Probably more- and I'm not anything resembling a superb driver.
It may, especially in a 650-750hp car on giant tires/slicks, be good enough to win you praise at your average HPDE, but it's not actually fast.
Originally Posted by lobsterroboto
If the nannies are on and you're not triggering them you're not going to be driving anywhere near the limit.
Sport 1 Active handling remains on as well as TC.
To be "fast' the car in many scenarios has to rotate. If the nannies aren't allowing rotation. you're not gonna be fast. If you cant get power down because it's cutting throttle on corner exit you're not going to be fast.
Nannies teach that it's okay to just smash the throttle like an on/off switch with no side effects. Turn the nannies off and do that and you'll loop the car.
This is accurate. I picked up a lot of bad habits driving PTM 1 at Spring Mountain as that's what they force you to drive (fortunately, they were easy to break and I learned a lot of other good stuff).
Someone said it somewhere, but I agree with the assessment that Race to "naked" isn't that big. All race does is cut power if you spin the rear tires. You probably shouldn't be lighting up the rear anyway. I'm not sure there is any circumstance where that is helpful to anything. I don't care what the manual says- PTM definitely still has a stability control thing going on.
I must say this thread is turning into one of the most epic threads on the forum! So much amazing info here! Thanks everyone for contributing and @Poor-sha for starting this!
That's not accurate. The car needs to slip a little bit.You need to rotate the car, which freaks out PTM, even PTM 2. You want to come out of turns with the momentum of the car rotating it and the front wheels straight(er). All these things freak PTM out. If you drove on the absolute cusp of engaging PTM 1 or 2, you wouldn't be a rolling chicane or anything, but you're a ways off being fast. PTM 2 to race is easily 1.5 seconds for me. Probably more- and I'm not anything resembling a superb driver.
It may, especially in a 650-750hp car on giant tires/slicks, be good enough to win you praise at your average HPDE, but it's not actually fast.
This is accurate. I picked up a lot of bad habits driving PTM 1 at Spring Mountain as that's what they force you to drive (fortunately, they were easy to break and I learned a lot of other good stuff).
Someone said it somewhere, but I agree with the assessment that Race to "naked" isn't that big. All race does is cut power if you spin the rear tires. You probably shouldn't be lighting up the rear anyway. I'm not sure there is any circumstance where that is helpful to anything. I don't care what the manual says- PTM definitely still has a stability control thing going on.
Here we are again debating PTM in this thread but I really don't understand what you are saying . You rotate the car on entry to the corner by trail braking until you get to apex where you want to accelerate and then you add throttle until you can get to WOT. You shouldn't be trying to rotate the car under throttle because as soon as you add throttle the diff locks up and the natural tendency of the car is to understeer, you can see this clearly on a skid pad.
PTM has no effect on rotation under braking and I can absolutely rotate the car, even in Sport 1 if it's done smoothly. It's true that you can rotate it more with AH but honestly I have seen very few times where that is actually saving time. What PTM does allow you to do is shorten the time from initial throttle application until WOT because you as the driver don't have to monitor and if necessary adjust for wheelspin. Yes the system kicks in but I have seen no data that it is actually accelerating the car less strongly that if it were off and you were doing it yourself, if anything it is quicker because the system can react more quickly with more fine adjustments than you can with your right foot.
PTM is doing this preemptively and not in response to you lighting up the tires. If it's doing it aggressively in response to wheelspin you really should validate whether you are in PTM mode. Lots of folks (including a pro I know) have made the mistake of thinking PTM was on but they hit the button again and turned it off. Perhaps that's happening to you. I fully agree that if you are not in a PTM mode the car is aweful to drive on track.
Yeah, I started analyzing the ratios for the build and it was clear I was going to want to put the Z06/ZR1 gears in. I tried to post my spreadsheet but it looks like garbage. When is this forum going to have tables?
The car falls flat on it's face at 105. I can't imagine how bad it would be with aero drag. A perfect ratio for the lower powered GS would be z06 gearing with 3.73 rear end (aka zl1 manual ratios). Just watch zl1 1le videos.
What are you guys talking about? The GS/Z51 have the ratios from the C5Z06. Yes there's a spread from 3/4, but I wouldn't say the car "falls on it's face". It still maxes out 4th easily at the end of the straights at VIR and 3rd has great grunt out of 2 and oak tree where a taller 3rd wouldn't.
I agree the GS/Z51 gears are not ideal for lap times. However, in my Z51 it was nice @ VIR, Summit Point, and Watkins Glen to not need 5th gear. When I switched to the C7 Z06, it is still taking time to get 5th gear quickly. I wouldn't call it Speed Shifting that I'm doing and it still feels like mush going into 5th. Have a split second moment of concern when letting out the clutch that I hit the gear. I tend to slow down that shift to guarantee success and give up the time. I'm not convinced that either gearing is the ideal answer. Z06 at some long straight tracks, you are only hitting 5th for a second before back on brakes. Excited about this build as I concur there are cheaper ways to build a track car, but the C7 is far superior to a C5 and even C6 platform as I've tracked all three. Superior equally trust/confidence, fun factor, and consistency. Can't wait to see you on track with this monster...hopefully next season.
Here we are again debating PTM in this thread but I really don't understand what you are saying . You rotate the car on entry to the corner by trail braking until you get to apex where you want to accelerate and then you add throttle until you can get to WOT. You shouldn't be trying to rotate the car under throttle because as soon as you add throttle the diff locks up and the natural tendency of the car is to understeer, you can see this clearly on a skid pad.
PTM has no effect on rotation under braking and I can absolutely rotate the car, even in Sport 1 if it's done smoothly. It's true that you can rotate it more with AH but honestly I have seen very few times where that is actually saving time. What PTM does allow you to do is shorten the time from initial throttle application until WOT because you as the driver don't have to monitor and if necessary adjust for wheelspin. Yes the system kicks in but I have seen no data that it is actually accelerating the car less strongly that if it were off and you were doing it yourself, if anything it is quicker because the system can react more quickly with more fine adjustments than you can with your right foot.
PTM is doing this preemptively and not in response to you lighting up the tires. If it's doing it aggressively in response to wheelspin you really should validate whether you are in PTM mode. Lots of folks (including a pro I know) have made the mistake of thinking PTM was on but they hit the button again and turned it off. Perhaps that's happening to you. I fully agree that if you are not in a PTM mode the car is aweful to drive on track.
Thats just not true. It definitely limits you when rotating the car. That’s not even debatable. If it senses any slip in the turn it also freaks out and starts braking mid turn when a little slip isn’t a big deal and/or you can correct by taking a little or steering out while staying on the gas rather than braking.
With regard to steering, yes being on the gas will always open you up wider due to on throttle underwater and the locker. But that doesn’t mean throttle steer isn’t a thing.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (track prepared)
C7 of Year Winner (track prepared) 2019
Originally Posted by village idiot
Thats just not true. It definitely limits you when rotating the car. That’s not even debatable. If it senses any slip in the turn it also freaks out and starts braking mid turn when a little slip isn’t a big deal and/or you can correct by taking a little or steering out while staying on the gas rather than braking.
With regard to steering, yes being on the gas will always open you up wider due to on throttle underwater and the locker. But that doesn’t mean throttle steer isn’t a thing.
I don't believe PTM sport 1 and higher uses the brakes.
It'll allow me to rotate all I want if you're foot isn't on the gas.
It's just that it severely impedes on how fast you can get back to throttle if the car is rotated.
Last edited by lobsterroboto; 12-10-2018 at 11:59 AM.
Thats just not true. It definitely limits you when rotating the car. That’s not even debatable. If it senses any slip in the turn it also freaks out and starts braking mid turn when a little slip isn’t a big deal and/or you can correct by taking a little or steering out while staying on the gas rather than braking.
With regard to steering, yes being on the gas will always open you up wider due to on throttle underwater and the locker. But that doesn’t mean throttle steer isn’t a thing.
When in Sport 2 or Race Stability Control is off and PTM only regulates how much power goes to the rear wheels so the driver doesn't have to pay as close attention to rear wheel slip when accelerating out of a corner. Even then under certain conditions the back end will step out if the driver adds too much power to quickly. It cost $14K in damages to my car to find that out.
Bill
Last edited by Bill Dearborn; 12-11-2018 at 11:53 AM.
Good stuff there Scott. Why do you think an ARE or Dailey dry sump is needed? Supposedly the ZR1 has exceeded 1.9G in testing. To be honest, my experience with the aftermarket systems is that they are kind of a pain to deal with. Catch cans filling with oil, having to more oil lines to do an oil change, special startup procedures, etc.
The Dailey "Signature Series" pump/pan is a billet unit that bolts directly to the billet pan - no scavenge lines. Another benefit is that you can get an integral oil-air separator that has a line to take air to the tank separate from the de-aeriated oil. When planning your headers you have to take into account the length of the pump. Here is the Dailey system for my BBC - quality piece!
When in Sport 2 or Race Stability Control is off and PTM only regulates how much power goes to the rear wheels so the driver doesn't have to pay as close attention to rear wheel slip when accelerating out of a corner. Even then under certain conditions the back end will step out if the driver adds too much power to quickly. It cost $14K in damages to my car to find that out.
Bill
I know it says that, but I've definitely felt it straighten the ship out in PTM2. Race, I agree.
If you are going to spend most of your time tracking and you want to have fun and actually work on your driving, not managing heat issues along with all the other ones associated with the Z06 and ZR1 then the GS is by far the best. I got rid of my 15- Z06 and bought a '18 GS 3LT. Best thing I could have done. Had a great year, lots of fun and absoslutley 0- ZERO problems.
Mods-
DSC- Controller and RTx shocks.- DSC Sport
AP Brakes front and rear- essex Parts
APR- Wing and Splitter
Forgeline - Wheels- WeaponXMotorsports
Hoosiers- Radial Tire- Maryland
Akrapovic - Exhaust - WeaponXMotorSports
Kooks Headers- green cats and x-pipe
SharkBAR - Harness Bar- Harnesses and Sparco Seat-
Custom Seat Bracket- Piper Motorsports
NO Tune- no warranty voiding mods
2018 NASA Mid Atlantic TTU Championship
NASA TTU Wins- Summit Point- Pitt Race- VIR- Dominion-
VIR - 1:59's on older Hoosiers- :58s deffnetly possible with a clear track
Summit Point- 1:16's
Pitt Race - 1:49
Lots of things planned for 2019.
Looking to Do the Optima Street car Challenge series, NASA- Nationals- And some of the other Time trial events- Grid Life Etc.
Sean - I am happy to send you any of the PDR files for comparison.
Hope Everyone has a Great Holiday and a Happy New Year!!! Mike
If you are going to spend most of your time tracking and you want to have fun and actually work on your driving, not managing heat issues along with all the other ones associated with the Z06 and ZR1 then the GS is by far the best. I got rid of my 15- Z06 and bought a '18 GS 3LT. Best thing I could have done. Had a great year, lots of fun and absoslutley 0- ZERO problems.
Mods-
DSC- Controller and RTx shocks.- DSC Sport
AP Brakes front and rear- essex Parts
APR- Wing and Splitter
Forgeline - Wheels- WeaponXMotorsports
Hoosiers- Radial Tire- Maryland
Akrapovic - Exhaust - WeaponXMotorSports
Kooks Headers- green cats and x-pipe
SharkBAR - Harness Bar- Harnesses and Sparco Seat-
Custom Seat Bracket- Piper Motorsports
NO Tune- no warranty voiding mods
2018 NASA Mid Atlantic TTU Championship
NASA TTU Wins- Summit Point- Pitt Race- VIR- Dominion-
VIR - 1:59's on older Hoosiers- :58s deffnetly possible with a clear track
Summit Point- 1:16's
Pitt Race - 1:49
Lots of things planned for 2019.
Looking to Do the Optima Street car Challenge series, NASA- Nationals- And some of the other Time trial events- Grid Life Etc.
Sean - I am happy to send you any of the PDR files for comparison.
Hope Everyone has a Great Holiday and a Happy New Year!!! Mike
If you take your car in for warranty work, make sure you don't mention the timed/competitive races. That voids warranty. Also, I think a harness bar voids the extended warranty- not sure about the first 3/36. It's also a good way to crush your neck in a roll over. Headers can definitely void powertrain warranty. Be real careful if you take it in.
Two questions:
Any real better feeling between factory brembo and AP using the same or similar pads?
How much downforce/what angle do you have your rear wing set at? Running 315 fronts, stage 3 aero front and only 2 rear, I still think I have a little push. I'm going to drop to stage 1 rear this weekend and see how it changes lap times. I feel like factory stage 2 and a good splitter would be ideal (but obviously a wing can make the same downforce with less drag).
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (track prepared)
C7 of Year Winner (track prepared) 2019
Originally Posted by Fitz89
If you are going to spend most of your time tracking and you want to have fun and actually work on your driving, not managing heat issues along with all the other ones associated with the Z06 and ZR1 then the GS is by far the best. I got rid of my 15- Z06 and bought a '18 GS 3LT. Best thing I could have done. Had a great year, lots of fun and absoslutley 0- ZERO problems.
Mods-
DSC- Controller and RTx shocks.- DSC Sport
AP Brakes front and rear- essex Parts
APR- Wing and Splitter
Forgeline - Wheels- WeaponXMotorsports
Hoosiers- Radial Tire- Maryland
Akrapovic - Exhaust - WeaponXMotorSports
Kooks Headers- green cats and x-pipe
SharkBAR - Harness Bar- Harnesses and Sparco Seat-
Custom Seat Bracket- Piper Motorsports
NO Tune- no warranty voiding mods
2018 NASA Mid Atlantic TTU Championship
NASA TTU Wins- Summit Point- Pitt Race- VIR- Dominion-
VIR - 1:59's on older Hoosiers- :58s deffnetly possible with a clear track
Summit Point- 1:16's
Pitt Race - 1:49
Lots of things planned for 2019.
Looking to Do the Optima Street car Challenge series, NASA- Nationals- And some of the other Time trial events- Grid Life Etc.
Sean - I am happy to send you any of the PDR files for comparison.
Hope Everyone has a Great Holiday and a Happy New Year!!! Mike
looks like your wins are 1:18's at Summit point.
Why are you running in TTU though?
C7/C7GS classes well in ST/TT2 and by the looks of your times you would be really competitive.
btw I got my regions TT2 regional win this year. It's more like an attendance award tho. a few much faster drivers than me this year but I showed up the most and podium'd often.
Last edited by lobsterroboto; 12-26-2018 at 06:06 PM.
12-09-2018, 07:58 PM
