W2W: SCCA or NASA?
02-14-2019, 10:49 PM
#61
Melting Slicks
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Heya Cory. There is alot of good advice in this thread from experienced individuals. Much can be learned by listening, reading and considering what these guys have to say. We have spoken before and I've told you what I think, and that is to keep things simple, straight forward and effective, otherwise you will get lost in the myriad of options and directions.
If you are set on this path (and your car), my advice (same as before) is to first gut and cage your car, install fire suppression, electric cutoff, window net and other items that are required for virtually any racing body you choose. This is the most significant and time consuming process and requires the biggest leap of faith. Everything up to this point is "all talk" and nothing but wishes, dreams, unicorns and bizarre references to types of racing you won't see. From there, join NASA Time Trials, not because you think you can win (as it appears you can't or aren't interested), but because it is a simple stepping stone to wheel to wheel. It will give you a better feel for truly running the car hard and at the limit, keep your costs under control, put you in a semi-racing mindset and environment, and give you an opportunity to learn (which you will desperately need - I know I did).
From there, it is a straight forward matter to apply for and get your competition racing license with NASA and join a race when you are ready. You don't need to plan for or attend every race, just the ones you want and can afford. So a few races a year are perfectly fine. I know many guys that do this in the NorthEast. They don't win championships, but they have a ton of fun and see podiums. Additionally, if you want to still do HPDE for fun, your car will be safer (but will never see a street again). You will need a trailer and truck (if you don't already have one), and quite frankly this is a must for any track junkie anyhow.
I think you should take a step back and evaluate whether you truly want to take the plunge and what that entails - mostly to your car which you are proud of and how/when you use it - as this will change dramatically. With racing, you give up a degree of control over the situation, all in return for the rush, thrill and excitement of the race and the competition. Personally, I think you should do it with your car, as I know you value the journey (like me) as much as the goal. The far cheaper (and quicker) alternative is to simply buy a pre-built, sorted race car. But I would be careful of over-extending yourself or getting dragged in too many directions at once. If you want to race your car, then cage it and make it race ready. The opportunities will create themselves.
If you are set on this path (and your car), my advice (same as before) is to first gut and cage your car, install fire suppression, electric cutoff, window net and other items that are required for virtually any racing body you choose. This is the most significant and time consuming process and requires the biggest leap of faith. Everything up to this point is "all talk" and nothing but wishes, dreams, unicorns and bizarre references to types of racing you won't see. From there, join NASA Time Trials, not because you think you can win (as it appears you can't or aren't interested), but because it is a simple stepping stone to wheel to wheel. It will give you a better feel for truly running the car hard and at the limit, keep your costs under control, put you in a semi-racing mindset and environment, and give you an opportunity to learn (which you will desperately need - I know I did).
From there, it is a straight forward matter to apply for and get your competition racing license with NASA and join a race when you are ready. You don't need to plan for or attend every race, just the ones you want and can afford. So a few races a year are perfectly fine. I know many guys that do this in the NorthEast. They don't win championships, but they have a ton of fun and see podiums. Additionally, if you want to still do HPDE for fun, your car will be safer (but will never see a street again). You will need a trailer and truck (if you don't already have one), and quite frankly this is a must for any track junkie anyhow.
I think you should take a step back and evaluate whether you truly want to take the plunge and what that entails - mostly to your car which you are proud of and how/when you use it - as this will change dramatically. With racing, you give up a degree of control over the situation, all in return for the rush, thrill and excitement of the race and the competition. Personally, I think you should do it with your car, as I know you value the journey (like me) as much as the goal. The far cheaper (and quicker) alternative is to simply buy a pre-built, sorted race car. But I would be careful of over-extending yourself or getting dragged in too many directions at once. If you want to race your car, then cage it and make it race ready. The opportunities will create themselves.
Just taking a car to the track (if you're at all serious) is freakin' expensive.
If you want to be competitive in your class racing, it's stupid expensive.
If you're concerned about a budget, start small and enjoy it until the money runs out. It evaporates like ether.
02-15-2019, 10:44 AM
#62
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2021 C1 of the Year Finalist - Modified
I been racing for 40 yrs and I've learned a few things. BEWARE ! Racing is VERY addictive and VERY expensive . My last trip to Indy expenses were about 4k , then I thumped the car and that added about 5k to repair (open wheel car) . I too like to do my own building and prep work, it's the only way I can afford it. And I also learned it's best (cheaper)to buy a car than to build it. I have an almost finished C-3 built for Vintage racing and put about 1 1/2 yrs into it then got sick again. Should have just bought one but the build kept me going through my cancer treatments. Good therapy.
One thing I will add , I used to race SCCA (GT 1) and got tired of the politics. Good luck, have fun and STAY SAFE !
One thing I will add , I used to race SCCA (GT 1) and got tired of the politics. Good luck, have fun and STAY SAFE !
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RapidC84B (02-15-2019)
02-15-2019, 04:48 PM
#63
Premium Supporting Vendor
Don raises a very *valid* point here, talking about mixing a 1,200 lb car with a GT car - that is a RECIPE for DISASTER!
So, go where the racing is - if you want a MASSIVE field, then Spec Miata (SM) is where you need to go whether it's NASA or SCCA.
Spec Racer Ford Gen 3 (SRF3) is also a MASSIVE field in SCCA.
For the GT2 cars (where your Vette would most likely go, you could also run in T1 too), Don is spot on regarding field size. What fun is it mixing it up with a handful of cars? It's not. The more cars, the MORE FUN!!
So, at the SCCA COTA Super Tour this past weekend the Big Bore Closed Wheel group had 25 cars total, 4 of them were GT1, 10 were GT2, 3 were GTX (new class for homologated cars, i.e. GT4), 6 were T1, 2 were AS.
That is a good size field! BTW - if you are "racing for tires" (or other contingency) then you need a field to get them....
SM had 36 cars, SRF3 had 48 cars!!
Want to go Formula racing? The Big Bore Open Wheel class had 42 entries....42! I don't believe NASA has open wheel, correct me if I'm wrong.
So, you want a BIGGER field you say? Because you REALLY want to mix it up, well, like Don posted...GO EAST!! The Super Tour Season Opener this January at Sebring was NUTS!!!
How nuts?? The Big Bore Closed Wheel group had 53 cars, yep, FIFTY-THREE!! 20 / TWENTY GT2 cars!!
So, go where the racing is - if you want a MASSIVE field, then Spec Miata (SM) is where you need to go whether it's NASA or SCCA.
Spec Racer Ford Gen 3 (SRF3) is also a MASSIVE field in SCCA.
For the GT2 cars (where your Vette would most likely go, you could also run in T1 too), Don is spot on regarding field size. What fun is it mixing it up with a handful of cars? It's not. The more cars, the MORE FUN!!
So, at the SCCA COTA Super Tour this past weekend the Big Bore Closed Wheel group had 25 cars total, 4 of them were GT1, 10 were GT2, 3 were GTX (new class for homologated cars, i.e. GT4), 6 were T1, 2 were AS.
That is a good size field! BTW - if you are "racing for tires" (or other contingency) then you need a field to get them....
SM had 36 cars, SRF3 had 48 cars!!
Want to go Formula racing? The Big Bore Open Wheel class had 42 entries....42! I don't believe NASA has open wheel, correct me if I'm wrong.
So, you want a BIGGER field you say? Because you REALLY want to mix it up, well, like Don posted...GO EAST!! The Super Tour Season Opener this January at Sebring was NUTS!!!
How nuts?? The Big Bore Closed Wheel group had 53 cars, yep, FIFTY-THREE!! 20 / TWENTY GT2 cars!!
02-15-2019, 06:52 PM
#65
Premium Supporting Vendor
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Captain Buddha (02-15-2019)
02-15-2019, 06:53 PM
#66
Sebring was a blood bath! I travel with 2 other seasoned drivers and we never have incidents. Each of us took body damage not of our fault, because drivers were just out of their minds. Kids at Legoland driver better than many at Sebring 2019.
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Captain Buddha (02-15-2019)
02-15-2019, 07:00 PM
#67
Safety Car
Cory,
Clutches should NOT be consumable. If so, you've either chosen the wrong one or are grape aping the car. If the engine, trans, diff, and brake heat can all be managed for a full race session then the driveline as a whole should be low maintenance as yours is what, cam only with valve guides repaired? You're going to be concentrating more on nut/bolt checks, keeping fluids full, watching for leaks forming, things chafing/rattling loose, etc. Most of the tinkerers I see at the track don't run up front, they're too busy taking notes and not concentrating enough on just driving a good enough setup and end up chasing their tails a lot. I'm not saying this will be the case for you, but I do read your posts and kind of relate some of your tendencies to that of other people I've seen at the track. I really hope you're not underestimating the magnitude of work it is to turn a street car into a race car, the financials of it, and the need to be able to calmly/cleanly drive 10/10ths in the dead of summer with someone grinding the paint off your rear bumper for 30+ minutes. There is no cool down in a sprint race, no time to collect your thoughts, you need to be in attack mode at all times, be predictable, and be in control when someone does get next to you or vice versa even when the tires get greasy.
Clutches should NOT be consumable. If so, you've either chosen the wrong one or are grape aping the car. If the engine, trans, diff, and brake heat can all be managed for a full race session then the driveline as a whole should be low maintenance as yours is what, cam only with valve guides repaired? You're going to be concentrating more on nut/bolt checks, keeping fluids full, watching for leaks forming, things chafing/rattling loose, etc. Most of the tinkerers I see at the track don't run up front, they're too busy taking notes and not concentrating enough on just driving a good enough setup and end up chasing their tails a lot. I'm not saying this will be the case for you, but I do read your posts and kind of relate some of your tendencies to that of other people I've seen at the track. I really hope you're not underestimating the magnitude of work it is to turn a street car into a race car, the financials of it, and the need to be able to calmly/cleanly drive 10/10ths in the dead of summer with someone grinding the paint off your rear bumper for 30+ minutes. There is no cool down in a sprint race, no time to collect your thoughts, you need to be in attack mode at all times, be predictable, and be in control when someone does get next to you or vice versa even when the tires get greasy.
Last edited by Supercharged111; 02-15-2019 at 07:00 PM.
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Captain Buddha (02-15-2019)
02-15-2019, 09:47 PM
#68
Safety Car
Thread Starter
that was my thought, just wanted to be sure.
lots of good reality checks in here. maybe focus on building the car this year? then worry about w2w when the time comes.
10/10s of the car or myself? big difference!
i actually have the mental side of it down really well. my sim racing helps with that a ton. i know its not widely accepted yet, but it will soon.
as for summer heat, ive got my cool shirt now for texas. didnt care for that un insulated car at all! (gspeed seat rental) fat boy needed cooling!
are all NASA classes (besides spec) unlimited tire? size and compound? i do really enjoy the 200TW driving. was curious if there were any 180/200TW classes.
lots of good reality checks in here. maybe focus on building the car this year? then worry about w2w when the time comes.
10/10s of the car or myself? big difference!
i actually have the mental side of it down really well. my sim racing helps with that a ton. i know its not widely accepted yet, but it will soon.
as for summer heat, ive got my cool shirt now for texas. didnt care for that un insulated car at all! (gspeed seat rental) fat boy needed cooling!
are all NASA classes (besides spec) unlimited tire? size and compound? i do really enjoy the 200TW driving. was curious if there were any 180/200TW classes.
02-15-2019, 10:00 PM
#69
Melting Slicks
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St. Jude Donor '10, '17
Yes, build the car and never-mind all the hand-waving! Have you ever been on a Hoosier or a racing slick (your sim doesn't count for this question). You will soon grow to love it if you haven't.
STU is unlimited tire.
ST1, ST2 and ST3 is any size tire but must be DOT approved or you are assessed a small penalty. Hoosier R7 or A7 are DOT tires so no penalty and are what most guys run. A true racing slick will get an assessment penalty when calculating power to weight. I assure you that you won't be on a 200tw tire in these classes.
ST4 has more restrictions. Must be a DOT tire. Sizes are limited via a "NASA Section Width Calculation" and R-compounds are assessed a penalty. But you won't be running in this class.
I'm also happy to chat offline again if you want. Or give me a call.
STU is unlimited tire.
ST1, ST2 and ST3 is any size tire but must be DOT approved or you are assessed a small penalty. Hoosier R7 or A7 are DOT tires so no penalty and are what most guys run. A true racing slick will get an assessment penalty when calculating power to weight. I assure you that you won't be on a 200tw tire in these classes.
ST4 has more restrictions. Must be a DOT tire. Sizes are limited via a "NASA Section Width Calculation" and R-compounds are assessed a penalty. But you won't be running in this class.
I'm also happy to chat offline again if you want. Or give me a call.
Last edited by Mordeth; 02-15-2019 at 10:03 PM.
02-15-2019, 10:03 PM
#70
Drifting
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that was my thought, just wanted to be sure.
lots of good reality checks in here. maybe focus on building the car this year? then worry about w2w when the time comes.
10/10s of the car or myself? big difference!
i actually have the mental side of it down really well. my sim racing helps with that a ton. i know its not widely accepted yet, but it will soon.
as for summer heat, ive got my cool shirt now for texas. didnt care for that un insulated car at all! (gspeed seat rental) fat boy needed cooling!
are all NASA classes (besides spec) unlimited tire? size and compound? i do really enjoy the 200TW driving. was curious if there were any 180/200TW classes.
lots of good reality checks in here. maybe focus on building the car this year? then worry about w2w when the time comes.
10/10s of the car or myself? big difference!
i actually have the mental side of it down really well. my sim racing helps with that a ton. i know its not widely accepted yet, but it will soon.
as for summer heat, ive got my cool shirt now for texas. didnt care for that un insulated car at all! (gspeed seat rental) fat boy needed cooling!
are all NASA classes (besides spec) unlimited tire? size and compound? i do really enjoy the 200TW driving. was curious if there were any 180/200TW classes.
Worry about building yourself first. Sim racing is good. But dump money into seat time, DE, TT's whatever can get you on the track in any car.
NASA ST is power to weight.
It doesn't have tire restrictions but you will take a point penalty for using non-DOT tires (hoosier R7's are a DOT tire but a Pirelli DH slick is not so you would take a penalty) Meaning if you're running Pirelli's you may need to add ballast.
there is a handy calculator here - https://form.jotform.com/drivenasa/s...ification-form
STU is unlimited so you can do virtually anything tho.
A C6 Z06 would more than likely slot in as TT1/ST1
ETA: also, with your car running narrow tire for a point bonus is unlikely with the amount of power you'll have.
Also on your "power" there is a horsepower formula, it's not based on "peak power" but average power and the formula is different based on things like naturally aspirated, redline etc.
Last edited by lobsterroboto; 02-15-2019 at 10:05 PM.
02-15-2019, 10:31 PM
#71
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Yes, build the car and never-mind all the hand-waving! Have you ever been on a Hoosier or a racing slick (your sim doesn't count for this question). You will soon grow to love it if you haven't.
STU is unlimited tire.
ST1, ST2 and ST3 is any size tire but must be DOT approved or you are assessed a small penalty. Hoosier R7 or A7 are DOT tires so no penalty and are what most guys run. A true racing slick will get an assessment penalty when calculating power to weight. I assure you that you won't be on a 200tw tire in these classes.
ST4 has more restrictions. Must be a DOT tire. Sizes are limited via a "NASA Section Width Calculation" and R-compounds are assessed a penalty. But you won't be running in this class.
I'm also happy to chat offline again if you want. Or give me a call.
STU is unlimited tire.
ST1, ST2 and ST3 is any size tire but must be DOT approved or you are assessed a small penalty. Hoosier R7 or A7 are DOT tires so no penalty and are what most guys run. A true racing slick will get an assessment penalty when calculating power to weight. I assure you that you won't be on a 200tw tire in these classes.
ST4 has more restrictions. Must be a DOT tire. Sizes are limited via a "NASA Section Width Calculation" and R-compounds are assessed a penalty. But you won't be running in this class.
I'm also happy to chat offline again if you want. Or give me a call.
drove on slicks once. but they were Continentals. and they were terrible. lasted a little over an hour of track time before cording, and sucked. i think i went nearly 2 seconds slower than my 200TW tires. so no never tried this drug yall call purple crack.
i think ideally my spot would be endurance racing. ive always enjoyed that style racing. fits me as a driver well too.
one thing though. if this is the advice everyone gets when interested in the sport, where did all these drivers and race cars come from? #deepthoughts
Last edited by STANG KILLA SS; 02-15-2019 at 10:33 PM.
02-15-2019, 10:36 PM
#72
Safety Car
Thread Starter
A C6 Z06 would more than likely slot in as TT1/ST1
ETA: also, with your car running narrow tire for a point bonus is unlikely with the amount of power you'll have.
Also on your "power" there is a horsepower formula, it's not based on "peak power" but average power and the formula is different based on things like naturally aspirated, redline etc.
02-15-2019, 10:47 PM
#73
Drifting
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There are a few full prep C6 Z06's in NASA ST1 that are amazing.
The GSpeed cars are great examples of this, they've done an awesome job at making ultra competitive cars which are comfortably in class (and just some ballast away from being super competitive in a different class)
02-15-2019, 10:48 PM
#74
Melting Slicks
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St. Jude Donor '10, '17
yeah i could use some more work, skills,heel toe, and just seat time. then maybe start gutting the car. then aero.
drove on slicks once. but they were Continentals. and they were terrible. lasted a little over an hour of track time before cording, and sucked. i think i went nearly 2 seconds slower than my 200TW tires. so no never tried this drug yall call purple crack.
i think ideally my spot would be endurance racing. ive always enjoyed that style racing. fits me as a driver well too.
one thing though. if this is the advice everyone gets when interested in the sport, where did all these drivers and race cars come from? #deepthoughts
drove on slicks once. but they were Continentals. and they were terrible. lasted a little over an hour of track time before cording, and sucked. i think i went nearly 2 seconds slower than my 200TW tires. so no never tried this drug yall call purple crack.
i think ideally my spot would be endurance racing. ive always enjoyed that style racing. fits me as a driver well too.
one thing though. if this is the advice everyone gets when interested in the sport, where did all these drivers and race cars come from? #deepthoughts
There was one Corvette at the race, a C6, and unfortunately he crashed and wrecked the car. Most cars are BMWs, Porsche etc.
Everyone starts somewhere. If you have bags of money and spare time, you can leap-frog large parts of the process (for better or for worse). But for normal guys, like you and I and everyone in this thread, we start at the bottom and claw our way up. What you see has usually come after years and years and even decades of hard work, patience, sacrifice, persistence, practice and sometimes a few lucky breaks. There is a guy right here in this thread that has track records, National Championships and is a grass-roots racer that started at the bottom. So what you are usually seeing is the end result of individuals with superior work ethic, a never ending desire to improve and determination.
Last edited by Mordeth; 02-15-2019 at 10:50 PM.
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Dane@LGmotorsports (02-16-2019)
02-16-2019, 12:27 PM
#75
Melting Slicks
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Don't know anything about where other drivers and race cars came from....
I started with a track day and liked it. Did more... wanted to race. Built a 'budget' 944 that would fit into an SCCA IT class. Timetrialed it with the PCA, found out how bad I sucked.
Got better, built a 944 turbo that kicked ***. Since I was now so awesome, and owned a BMW shop, built an M3 to go BMWCCA racing.
Found out how bad I sucked....
I started with a track day and liked it. Did more... wanted to race. Built a 'budget' 944 that would fit into an SCCA IT class. Timetrialed it with the PCA, found out how bad I sucked.
Got better, built a 944 turbo that kicked ***. Since I was now so awesome, and owned a BMW shop, built an M3 to go BMWCCA racing.
Found out how bad I sucked....