kuruvette

I was trying to explain to my brother that during a spin , the instructors say it, but I did a rather poor job of explaining to my brother what this exactly means. Can anybody explain it to me? :confused:

GTB/ZR-1

That wouldn't apply to an automatic car like yours. It's for 3 pedal cars and when you're in a spin: push in the clutch and brake simultaneously, hang on, and hopefully you'll stop before a wall helps in the stopping process :eek:


[Modified by GTB/ZR-1, 10:57 PM 12/28/2002]

kuruvette

Yeah, my brother drives a manual :yesnod:

EricVonHa

What does it mean prior to applying the principle? Well, hopefully the car in front of you didn't cause you to run off nor does your car have any mechanical failures, and most certainly, there wouldn't be any errors in driver judgement. Running 11/10ths is a sure way to cause "both feet in".
Driver education events should be run at about 9/10ths! And only at that point after thoroughly learning the course.

Both feet in means to bring the car to a quick stop without any steering input. If you get any wheel off into the grass or gravel, let it go. Trying to counter act by steering may just lead to flipping the car. Instead, brakes hard, and clutch pedal "in". <<< both feet in.


The below is a car from an all Corvette event from a couple years ago. The guy was not hurt thankfully. Had he adhered to the principle, the shiny shide still may have stayed up.

Mike Schriber

What they're trying to get across is that in many (most?) cases, when you've started to loose the car in a spin (two/four wheels off, throttle lift, overcooking the corner, etc.), trying to save it by steering into the skid may be the worst thing to do.

The quickest way to get the car stopped in a situation like this is to slam on the brake (and press the clutch if it's a manual) and steer straight.

It is very good advice and it's usually the first thing I cover with my students when instructing.

Mike :flag

MelloYellow

At some point after the spin slows, you'd want to counter steer a bit and possibly apply a bit of gas when in the forward motion too, or no?

Both feet in is interesting, but at some point you need to move forward again. How do you recover at the end of this technique? Counter steering is bad at a fast spin rate, but not slow?

SWCDuke

Once you know you are beyond the point where countersteering is going to save it, and you know you're going to spin, turning the steering wheel back into the original direction of the turn will usually tighten the spin, which will bleed off kinetic energy quicker and stop the car in less distance, which might just save you from hitting an immovable object.

A good way to practice car control, spin recovery and mitiation, and get a gut level feel for how a vehicle can be controlled when it's "out of control" is to find an empty parking lot (one without curb bumpers, of course) with a few inches of fresh snow and practice these techniques.

Duke

MelloYellow

Crazy! Tighten the spin when you start to spin? So many different techniques. I mean, the countersteer always worked ok for me. I wouldn't want to test on my C5. Can't be good for the tires or suspension. ;)

Think I'll counter until I start to spin and lose it. Put the tires straight and go both feet in. As it slows I'll try to counter again, otherwise repeat.

Anyone feel there is a good time to apply some gas? Only when nose forward with the direction of forward movement?

Bill Dearborn

The purpose of the both feet in rule is simple. Its so the car follows the simple laws of physics. When you put both feet in you are disconnecting the engine from the rear wheels and making sure all 4 wheels are locked. Once all 4 wheels are locked there is no difference in tire traction whether the tire is sliding sideways or in a direction where the tire would normally turn. What this does for you is to keep you going in the same general direction you were originally going in. It !!MAY!! actually keep you from hitting the wall.

I will give you an example from Watkins Glen Turn 10. If you come through the corner the wrong way it is possible to get the tail swinging around at while you are traveling at a pretty high rate of speed (90) as you are exiting the turn. If you countersteer you will not really help the situation much and your rolling tires will take you straight into the outside guardrail. If you lift and countersteer at the same time the car will literally snap around and go directly into the guardrail (trailing throttle oversteer). However, if you lock up all 4 the car will skid down the track instead and not hit anything. The reason for this is that as your car is pivoting its direction is still on a line that goes down the track. With the wheels locked it will continue in the same direction because there is no force to make it move off that line. Taking your foot off the brake will provide that force at some point in the spin.

I have pictures of cars that hit the guardrail. If you are lucky the car will pivot around enough to hit on the passenger side and not do much damage if you are unlucky you will hit the guardrail head on, like a C4 Roadster did right in front of me one year.

Best place to watch this happen is a NASCAR race. The cars that spin coming off the corner are quite numerous. Watch their direction on the track and whether or not their wheels are turning.
Bill

Mike Schriber

What Bill said.

I just want to add, that by the time you attempt to save it and realize it's too far gone, it may already be to late. There completion of this procedure is to come to a complete skidding stop, then asses your condition, location, and traffic on the track before moving out.

Running the C5 in Competition Mode will save you more often than not. The computer is VERY good at what it does, even on the first generation system.

Mike :flag

SNISTER

This method is only useful if you are entirely off track and your momentum is carrying you further off track. Hopefully, you stop before contacting an inanimate object.

If you get 2 tires off and you lock up your brakes, your car is going to behave unpredictably. If you get two tires off, the safest thing you can do is slow down gradually without any sudden steering or braking input. Once you regain control of the car, make sure no one is coming up fast behind you and then pull back on course.

I shudder at the thought of being behind the guy who gets 2 tires off, then jams on his brakes and cuts his wheels to get back on the track, only to regain traction and go shooting across the track right in front of me.

Jim 47

The action of "both feet in" does two things. 1. It disconnects the engine from the wheels by depressing the clutch (the same thing could be accomplished by shiffting into neutral, but if you find yourself in a spin, the left foot on the clutch is the fastest and most natural way). 2. It hopefully locks all four wheels (at least that is what you are trying to do), but with today's anti-lock brakes you will not be able to "truely" lock the brakes, but it is still better than not applying the brakes.

The purpose of all of this is to let the car proceed on the vector it was on just prior to the "both feet in" action, and hopefully come to a stop before it hits some other object. The laws of physics state that a body in motion will contiue in motion unless acted upon by an outside force, so theoritically, when you lock the brakes the car should slow down and continue on the same vector it was on, unless the car encounters some other obstical or force acting upon it.

There are some other possibilities while all of this is happening. First, someone pointed out that if, let's say, the left wheels are off the pavement on grass/gravel/sand and the right side tires are on the pavement, the right tires will have much better grip in the braking action and this will introduce another varible to the stopping process, namely introduce a right spin to the car. If the front wheels are not pointed straight ahead, and the brakes are not fully locked, (this will happen with anti-lock brakes) then the front end of the car is going to go in the direction that the front wheels are pointed. Also if the side of the track has curbs or uneven ground, the car could get airborn or turned by the tires hitting these things causing more problems. Generally trying to turn the steering wheel when the car is off the track and going too fast can cause more problems than it will help, like hooking the wheels in sand, and flipping the car over. So. the best advice is to put both feet in when all four wheels are off the track. Don't try to steer the car (keep the front wheels in a straight ahead position if possible). Hopefully you or your brother or any of us will not have to resort to this action. Someone mentioned Watkins Glen, and at the Glen this technique could work at turn 1, inner loop, 5, 7, 8, and 10. All the other turns you'll be hitting a sky blue gard rail long before the "both feet in" urge occures to you. :cool:

kraff

:iagree: One other point you might find interesting. A locked wheel, (as opposed to a wheel that has rolling traction), still maintains about 70 percent of its friction or ability to stop. Better to have 70 percent than not.

I have unfortunately tested this in person, with generally minimal damage :cheers:

gkull

When all else fails hit the skids to scrub off speed. Be sure and get your thumbs on the outside of the steering wheel. I was skidding into an impact with a slow moving car crossed up in the track. Praying that he would just get moving out of the way or continue on. When my body bent into my front tire it violently rotated the steering wheel and nearly tearing my left thumb off

Mike Schriber

Snister, we're talking about what to do in a spin. If you get two wheels off and spin, it's the same as any other spin, put both feet in and steer straight.

If you're not in a spin, none of this is applicable.

Mike :flag

Zpeedstr

Both feet in is the best method to stop fast when you have lost it.
Especially with the Vette's ABS. It seems that flat spots are minimized.
Also, you don't have the possibility of running the engine backwards, which saves alot of driveline wear.

Rocs96

That happens to have been my 96 at a Corvette club event held at Pocono and for your info, I had both feet in. The problem was that I was late on track because I was sharing my car with someone else. There had been a previous accident at the turn in for the esses and there was no debris flag out. I came into a hard brake zone and there was dirt & debris all over the road. As I slid, I kept the wheel straight and stayed on the brakes. When I hit the high curb at a turn, the wheel jerked and caused a spin, with both feet in at that point I was tossed into a ditch which caused a roll over. Following that I was told they manned the flag station out there for the rest of the weekend.

Forums are great for exchanging info, but before you draw a judgement make sure you know the whole story. BTW, there is a very good article in a recent Roundel that points out that with ABS, both feet in is not necessarily useful since ABS prevents the wheels from locking up which is what you want in a spin.

MelloYellow

How about a spin in the rain? All the same applies?

Jim 47

Obviously in slick conditions, such as a wet or oily pavement any spinning or speed will be harder to reduce. "Both Feet In" is a basic technique that is NOT a cure all or maybe NOT the safest way to handle every condition in which you find yourself in an "out of control" condition. It is generally recommended to Non Expert drivers as a "last resort" when spining or sliding off the paved surface of the track, but should be used by any level of driver in the right conditions.

As I and others have pointed out with today's ant-lock brakes you will not lock up the wheels, as long as they are inclined to roll. If they are going completely sideways, then they will lock. So if the car is going straight ahead, the anti-lock brakes will slow you down very quickly on dry pavement and not slow you down very quickly on a wet or slipery surface like grass. If the car is spining, then there is a large factor of inpredictability thrown into this equation, and in the case of the guy at Pocono, hitting curbs and ditches will induce other forces to the car, causing bad things to happen.

The bottom line is that both feet in is a good technique in many off track excursions, but NOT a cure all. It will generally allow the car to keep going in the direction (the vector) it was going prior to "both feet in", unless the car continues to steer itself due to anti-lock brakes or it encounters another force acting upon the car.

The best way to avoid having to use this technique is to patiently learn high speed driving skills slowly in a step by step process. These skills include:Vision, looking far ahead to be aware of any developing problems, Knowing the feel of your car in braking, acclerating and cornering, Knowing your limitations and building your speed up slowly, and Acting very responsibily and sensibly on the track. Good luck and good driving to all my fellow Hot Shoes for a safe and fun 2003. :cool:

Bill Dearborn

Jim 47,
You are absolutely correct about the Glen. Those other turns just bite you real quick. In my 86 I went off the track at the Inner Loop. It was due to a mistake I made coming up to the Turn In. For some reason I thought I could overcome the mistake and made the turn in for the right turn far too late instead of just riding on the brakes through the cones. When it came time to turn left I was in the wrong place on the track and going in the wrong direction past the left turn heading straight for the tire wall across the grass. I tried to keep control and get headed a little bit to my left since I did not want to do a head on into the tire wall (no kitty litter there at that time). As the car started rotating to the left I ran out of track and the right side wheels hit the grass. I went into an instant left spin with a trajectory at an angle to the tire wall. On the first spin I did not have time to get my feet in and as I went around I moved a little away from the wall. On the second spin I put both feet in and followed a direct line torward the wall. On the third spin I took my feet off the pedals and started moving away from the wall so that I was close to being parallel with it. On the 4th spin the left front hit the tire wall and bounced off which caused the left rear to dig into the wall and spin me back around so I ended up with the right side of the car against the wall. Luckily the only car damage was a little paint abrasion at the two spots that hit the wall. Both spots were about the size of a half dollar and the paint was removed down to the primer. I was very lucky since the Inner Loop is probably the only place on the track where there is enough room to spin 3 times and not hit anything. Since there was enough room I was able to avoid T Boning the wall at a high rate of speed and accidentally used the spin to absorb some of the momentum I had when I went off the track. Could I ever be that lucky again??, Nope.

By the way, the ABS did not actuate when I hit the brake in the second spin. All 4 wheels locked up. During the spins time slowed down immensely and I had time to think about what I should do next and to actually do it. During that time it was also very quiet and I could hear the car underneath me and would have known by the brake pedal or the noise from the brakes whether or not the ABS was working. It was very interesting watching the trees go around also. It seems like a surreal experience now that I describe it.

When I had my incident there was nothing but grass and if I had went straight off I would have never slowed down before hitting the wall. Since they put the Kitty Litter in I would just drive straight into it with the brakes on full since I would be able to stop. Going into the litter sideways may be a real good way to flip a car.
Bill


[Modified by C5inNY, 2:53 PM 1/2/2003]