I am starting to look at options to replace my tired 350 in my 65 over the next year or so.. I played a bit with the idea of a LS2, as well as a BBC. I want something that is a no kidding easy swap, and that I can put 20,000 miles on a year, and not have to tweak every week to get running right.

So I thought about putting a GM ZZ454/440 from Sallee in and dressing it up completely like a L78. I know I would need a BB hood but other than that shouldn't it be a simple swap? The questions I had were:

1) Can I use stock exhaust manifolds with that motor?
2) Will this motor fit under a 1965 BB hood?
3) Will ignition shielding fit on this motor?
4) How will this motor do with a Keisler TKO600?
5) What else do I need to consider?


And finally the motor minus carb, intake, ignition is just under $6000. Is this decent bang for my buck? I figure this would be more than enough HP and TQ, and do not want something that runs on pump gas one day, pings the next.. want something I can jump in and drive whenever wherever..

 

1) yes; but don't expect them to bolt up to the small block pipes
2) yes; but the factory intake will set you back $$$$
3) yes
4) fine
5) Getting all the brackets to bolt up; the alt, water pump, A/C, power steering, and anything else you may(or maynot) have on your motor. Correct brackets are hard to find and pricey.

I suggest you look around at prices for the brackets first.

GM crate motors are a desent bang for the buck.

P.S. Your local chevy dealer will probably match (or beat) the price of Sallee if you talk to the parts manager. After all it is a quick sale. If he cann't go to the next one. ( Any GM dealer sales this motor )

 

If you go with the LS2 or any of the modern fuel injection engines it complicates things due to the fuel pump and plumbing. New tank maybe, return lines, wiring harness modifications, etc. Nothing unsurmountable, just more difficult/costly. More fun/wow factor though. Pluses are the benefits of nice smooth power and good fuel mileage and driveablity.

I ended up with a ZZ4 350 in my '61. This makes a simple switch, bolt in most everything. HEI ignition, modern carburetor. Nice motor for driving around town due to the wide torque range and plenty of horsepower for these lightweight cars. Electronic choke on the carb makes good for cold weather even. Plenty of power, motor pulls strong.

Don't know about exhaust manifolds or shielding.
I have a Keisler 5 speed in mine.
BBC seems like overkill, but there is no substitute for cubic inches.

I got mine from Scoggins Dickey in Texas. www.sdpc2000.com for $3600 plus carb, brackets fuel pump. There is plenty of aftermarket brackets out there you shouldn't have any trouble finding them to fit. Summitt catalog and street rod vendors.

Sallee does have some nice looking small block complete motors too.

Best of luck and have a good time doing and driving it.

Dave

 

You don't mention money as a problem so, taking these two statements out of your question as the prime guide, I'd recommend a 383 or 406. It's a bolt in and you can keep everything looking nearly stock without buying a bunch of BB parts for the changeover. If you need more power, feel free to hassle with the BB.



"I want something that is a no kidding easy swap,"

"I figure this would be more than enough HP and TQ,"

 

I helped a friend put this engine from Golens Engine Supply in his 66 Coupe.... The car is now a real "BEAR", and with the side pipes puts out great "don't f**k with me" music..... Very reasonable at $4,999.....

Forgot to add its' a 383 engine..... and he used the "shorty" style Simpson headers with minor mods in order to connect to the side pipes......

 

As far as Sallee Chevrolet goes and where to buy ... I can suggest to you...something to think about. You could have 57 less cubes and only 15 less HP for a small amt less, and have the weight of an alum head small block in the car with the 383/425.

Just ordered my 383/435 TODAY! I'm getting it w/vortec performer endurashine manifold and short water pump, engine painted chevy orange, w / ARP stainless bolts.

$5891, including freight WA state to Atlanta, GA. I think that's a lot for the money, really! Freight WAS included in the 5891 ... was only about $200 for freight nearly coast to coast.

If you can find that price locally, you'll have to pay sales tax. On 6 K if sales tax is 7%, that's $420 ...pay the $180-200 in freight instead! I had to ditch Summit altho the same price ... (sales tax was 400 bucks) ....because they have a DC just south of Atlanta and it ws an 'in state' purchase.

I doubt you will find a local chevy dealer as cheap as they are (Sallee/ Gilbert.) Check Jegs, Summit as well. Summit went up $300, on the 383/425. Jegs still had the old price. Sallee matched that, and saved me money on more items.

They will ALL match prices. Finally, when you deal with Salleee/ Gilbert, talk to Tom in parts over there...he's the head guy and you can and SHOULD 'wheel and deal' with him!! They can also do anything and everything to that engine you can dream of.....

You can deal on all sorts of stuff, fuel pumps, starters, etc...check their prices on all accessories on your wish list.. you might be surprised, I was!

 

Here are the specs on the motor:

ZZ 454/440 Technical Information

Horsepower ..................... 440 @ 5250 RPM
Torque .......................... 500 @ 3250 RPM
Max. Recommended RPM ..... 5500 RPM
Compression Ratio ............. 9.6:1
Block ............................ 12550307 Cast Iron - Four bolt mains
Crankshaft ...................... 14096983 Forged Steel
Connecting Rods ............... 10198922 Forged Steel
Pistons .......................... 10215228 Forged Aluminum
Piston Rings .................... 12523921
Camshaft ........................ 24502611 Hydraulic roller Lift: .510" I, .540" E. Duration @ .050: 211o I, 230o E.
Timing Chain ................... 10114177 Single Roller
Cylinder Heads ................. 12363390 Cast aluminumer 110cc combustion chambers
Intake Valves ................... 12366986 2.19"
Exhaust Valves .................. 12366988 1.88"
Valve Springs ................... 12462970
Rocker Arms .................... 12368082 1.7:1
Torsional Damper .............. 10216339 8"
Flexplate ........................ 10185034 14"
Valve Lash ...................... Net lash
Fuel ............................. 92 Octane
Spark Plugs ..................... MR43T Gap .045 #10 Rapid Fire Gap .045
Ignition Timing .................. 4° BTDC


Not too crazy and has a roller cam, low CR, alum heads.. and I saw it listed for $5450..

The reason I wanted a BB is because it seems like a SB with ANY higher intake will need a BB hood.

 

You may be correct on that part. I guess the choice is low intake / max of probably 450 hp or so but keep all SBC components and hood.

Higher intake /BB HOOD for BBC engine, new BBC components for larger engine, etc. = more horepower.

Hey ! I just figured it out .. more HP = More $$

HP and $$$ seem to go up exponentially (especially when you include the vette BB Hood) when you get over 400 ... (with the exception of nitrous)

Good luck, happy shopping, do shop those GMPP engine buying options!

 

Well that's one reason.. the other reason is it seems you can get more streetable power from a BB.. while a SB will require an intake along the lines of an RPM Air Gap of Vic Jr. which in no way looks stock. The GM454 CR is 8.5:1 ZZ454 is 9.6:1 and a 400 horse SB seem to start at 10:1.. but I am stil looking and open to suggestions.. The HO454 from GM even claims 87 or higher gas is fine..

 

Before you buy a big block, make sure it will fit in your frame. Late 65 frames had an indentation at the front of the engine crossmember to clear the harmonic balancer on the big blocks. Early cars did not have this indentation. It started with the intro of the 396 engine. I'm sure that someone will chime in with a vin or date when the indentation started. You don't need any surprises when that new engine is hanging on the engine hoist.

 

For the BB you'll probably need to upgrade the suspension too,
new springs and anti-sway bars.

Since you're looking at a BB/ alum heads find out what the weight difference is first.

 

Hmm.. how can I tell the difference? I never heard of this.. my car was built around april-may timeframe.

The suspension all around is VBP with front monoleaf, tubular control arms.. etc.

 

Have you considered what kind of warranty comes with the engine?

The Edelbrock crates are more expensive but come with a two year unlimited milage warranty. Something to consider if you plan to drive 20k miles a year.

Jegs has them, might be better prices:
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...tegoryId=43782

 

I have thought about the warrenty.. GOLEN offers 3 year parts/labor.. BUT most places like these want you to ship the engine back to them, and they for example are in NH. I would be shipping it from CA. GM I could take to any GM dealer. Same goes with most engine builders. After freight there and back I am looking at $500 or more easy..

Another one I looked into a bit was the "450 destroyer" from Jon Barrett

http://www.jonbarrett.com/450com.htm

Edelbrock asks too much money for what they sell.. You can get a 509 or 540 for as much money with a 2 year warrenty as well..

 

"450 destroyer": Cast crank?

If I pay 5 grand for a motor it better have a forged crank.

I like the GM better.

 

We'll be happy to do our part

We have experience putting our kits behind just about anything you can put in a Vette!

 

lol.. I like the GM better as well.. I didn't like everything about this motor.. I want all forged, roller can, etc..

 

I have the 383/425 from Sallee with an Edelbrock (slightly lower) intake, Speed Demon 750 carb, short water pump, MSD magnetic pickup ignition with 6AL controller, and HPC "no-leaker" headers. I have a K&N 3" filter in a K&N 14" diam. air cleaner, with the base slightly modified to drop to about 1.5 inches. I still have about 3/8" hood clearance with my original hood. At an advertised 425hp at 5400 rpm, and 460 ft-lbs torque at 4500 rpm, it still has a lot of power with the lower intake. A BB will require mods and more work to fit in, but that is always the builder's option. The off-road cam and the Dynamax Super-Turbo mufflers make a very nice rumble at idle, and plenty of sound on launch. After owning the '65 for 40 years, I am very pleased with the result. The engine has about 2500 miles on it. Oddly enough, the engine now comes with the polished rocker covers that I had to order as an extra.

 

The company that built the engine for Penske's 1966 Daytona winner is STILL in bussiness... Traco Engineering

1. Engine for the Penske/Donohue Camaro
2. Head Engine builder for A.J. Foyt
3. Builder of Engines for the Guldstrand GS-80 Corvette
4. Builder of the Callaway C12-R Lemans Competition Engines

If I were repowering... I'd get mine done here...there's GM
heritage... and then there is GM Racing heritage..

here's the link-

http://www.tra-coengines.com/history.html

 

Does any one have comparison pics I can see to tell what I am lloking for? My car was born mid year..