Procrastination Racing

As we all know by now, Michael Hanson got booted from the NCRS TDB board for trying to correct errors in the 63-64 TMJG.

Here is an example of why it is important, people really do believe the stuff and think it is right.

I emailed a guy selling a '63 to '65 air cleaner to find out what he really had. It was really a '64-'65, not what I wanted, and I told him. His answer:
The difference of having the front tube for connecting to the oil filler tube for '63 only and having the rear vent tube on '64-'65 completely eluded him, because the NCRS TMJG says it has to have two snorkels.

And some poor sucker will probably buy it as a '63 and wonder why he gets dinged.

ratmotortom

My fourth edition of the manual seems to point out the difference.

Toms-68

This is directly from the fourth edition, page 69:
Air Cleaner Base
1963 base engine and L75
The base of the air cleaner is painted gloss black, with two long tapered intakes, commonly called "double snorkels". the base also has an elbow installed near the front, facing forward. A piece of rubber tubing connects the oil filler tube to this air cleaner fitting. Service replacement bases may have a second tube, approximately 1 inch in diameter, at the rear. This tube is plugged with a rubber plug for 63 application.

1KULC7

Good pionts made on both sides. Now let's get down to this. If the JG is used in synch with the AIM, then between the two you have criteria which you are judged on by NCRS at NCRS. What about the judge who takes away points because he states "that was the way it was on 63s" and his only reference is either what he remembers or what he has seen on what is suppose to be an all original 63. So in effect his judging is not objective but subjective.

OK, little deeper thought on this. A judge takes away points but it is not stated in the JG. A good example will be the dip sticks. The JG does not go into to much detail about the SHP (L76/89) dip sticks. However judges are looking for specific things that are NOT described in the JG...and will take points away...IS THIS FAIR? How can you restore a car without knowing the specifics and then get points taken away. You might have an exact describe dip stick per the JG, but becuase this judge says it should have a certain letter stamped on it and the letter you have does not match, yet the JG states nothing about this letter, you get points taken away???

How and what is the point on doing this? I just don't understand sometimes the process used at NCRS, of course NCRS members will read this, but I feel as though I can get straight answers here and I really do not mean to be disrespectful to the NCRS, its publications or its membership, I just would like to be judged on an even bar based on what they WRITE in a JG rather then somebody's word...COMMENTS

ratmotortom

I think your comments are very valid, and not presented in a disrespectful way at all. There are issues with the JG, and probably always will be. We are constantly learning about these cars along the way. The process will never end. The best way to restore the car, is not to restore it stricly with the JG. Use it as a guide along with all of the other resources you have available to you. If you are restoring a 63 340HP L76 and you know the dipstick supposed to be chrome and have a letter in a certain spot, even though the JG doesn't state it, you better show the car with what you believe to be correct. Every time a new fact is learned, a new guide cannot be printed. That's the beauty of the internet, the new findings can be shared immediately. This is just my opinion, of course, but like I said I use the JG as a guide. I like to read as many books, search as many articles, look at as many original examples, and talk with as many "old timers" as I can. Then decide how to prepare my car. May we all keep learning, and learn to get along !!

63driver

Other area of the 63/64 JG that are incorrect are, the section on the auxiliary hardtop (this section is backwards), ashtray, radio side panels, etc. All I suggest is that, if you have a 63 use all the material available, especially a Bowtie/Survivor car as a way to make a comparison. Also, try to compare your car with one that has a very close VIN number.

Harry

Seaside63

Collin, you have a beautiful car that has attained Top Flight so you must be doing something right.

I don't understand NCRS, so I quit.

ctjackster

very good points, which I interpret as "it is not fair to judge my car with a moving target [perhaps subjective, based on the judge] standard, especially since I used that standard to guide my resto efforts." Problem is, and as I understand it (Colin, you certainly know more about 63s than I could ever hope to) is that the TIM&JG as it relates to 63s is chock full of errors. Which gives rise to two problems:

(1) NCRS judges who really know the truth apply the [unpublished yet correct] standard, much to the dismay of someone who restored their 63 to the standard called out in the JG; and

(2) consistent with (1) above, those who relied on the accuracy of the TIM&JG and changed items on their 63 cars to comport with what it specified possibly changed what was original and correct to conform to the inaccurate JG - they mangled perfectly correct and original items on their car because of the errors in the TIM&JG.

As for (1) this seems to be your issue. I guess if all NCRS judges uniformly ignored the JG where it was wrong, and these areas were known to the 63 owners like you, this would be ok, but such is not the case.

1KULC7

Thanks for the kind words, and like everybody else I learn something new everyday on this forum and the NCRS forum. But what I have run up against are judges who THINK they know and Judges who really are not that experienced but stubborn. I know I have the right to escalate to the head judge, but how many times can you do it at an event without getting a poor rep.

Recently when one exterior judge told me my metal flakes in my Sebring Silver paint were to small, the original lacquer paint had larger flakes. I parked by Sebring Silver next the Lance Millers ORIGINAL 12K mile car and they looked the EXACT SAME, but mine was a bit wetter looking simply because my paint is newer and his is over 43 years old DUUHHH.

But this judge gave me his business card and told me he paints cars for a living and if I wanted it done right he could do it..... THIS TURNED ME OFF.

I did ask the judge if I had the correct number of flakes for the 63 or was a short a few He did not share the humor.

Many have seen my car and the paint is EXACT...the person who did my car is without a doubt one the best in the country and his work speaks for himself. We went through MANY trials and even after the car looked beautiful we reshot the car again because we got a better test panel of the paint mix that made it identical to factory.

I overlooked this but the more I think about it, it grinds at me. How many other judges do this. Again I mean no disrespect, but this is exactly what people are seeing with NCRS...conflit of interests...

NCRS should really consider a code of ethics for its judges, I hope to be one in the future and would love to have a code that I would sign up for.

How can a judge be fair when he is trying to capture business? Is this considered ethical?

Again no disrespect intended and I by no means am grinding an axe, or passing judgement, but in fairness I think judges need to leave their business cards and promoting their business outside the judging field and judge fairly. How the heck can you tell the size of metal flakes in a paint that is FACTORY???? Again, Lance and my car's paint was identical....oh did I tell you the same judge told Lance his car was repainted and not the original paint too....Lance's Dad bought this car just before he passed and its very special to Lance, Lance actually call the person he purchase the car from at the show and the person told LANCE the car was ALL ORIGINAL if NEVER was in an accident or painted in any way.....this is for the record.

ricks327

All of the above comments show why NCRS made a mistake in banning Michael from the TDB. I don't believe his intent was to knock a certain person but to make the JG the best it could be. So NCRS members lose a valuable resource and a person dedicated to improving the JG. This is why I am glad to see he will be posting here because his mid-year experience is outstanding.

Rick

Critter1

I think some very good points were made in the posts above. The only solution I ever saw was to make the manual as absolutely correct as possible. At least 95% of the problems of "different opinions on the judging field" would be eliminated just by having a guide that was close to accurate.

1KULC7

However, most of what I also experience in NCRS is the R is missing. RESTORATION does not mean original. Many of the OEM and NOS parts that are not reproduced are not EXACT but when you get to the point of the Crimp is the wire is larger by 5/16 of an inch then the original Crimp and you can't even see the crimp, again whats the point. My point is along with judging common sense and fairness must prevail in order to avoid this hobby going out of control. Do NCRS have judges or enforcers? A judge makes a determination based on the facts and what is presented, thus you have logic. An enforcer does not review or care about facts just does what he/she is told to uphold a very narrow view. I rest my case...

Mark_Milner

I hear you. The restoration part is kind of forgotten, as is the preservation part from years ago.

Lately, we have been hearing a lot on restamped restoration engines. However, if they can detect it, you get zero. It is a very critical pass/fail, while everything else is a grading system.

Ok, so you can tell the engine has been restamped. I can tell the car has been repainted. I can tell you have reskinned the aluminum intake. Each of these get judged on how accurately they were done, not if you can tell.

So when judging an engine pad, I think they should be doing it on a graduated scale, not all or none. Are the numbers there? Yes. Are they right? Yes. Are they in the correct font? No. Are they aligned correctly? No. Are they located typically? Yes.

Now that would be 0 of the 25 by the current method. But under a graduated scale, you could assign 5 points to each characteristic and so this one would get 15 points of the 25 available.

Why should restoration be about being able to pay the most money to the best expert only? Why can't the dad and son working in their one-car garage get treated with respect for their best efforts. If they get it crooked, it is still there.

To me, forget all the waivers. The ACTIONS of NCRS says "we judge cars to be original". They do not say "we judge how close you came to looking original".

Like someone else has mentioned, you can't even play by the rules, because only part of the rules are published.

I have no problem with NCRS saying "this is a game we play and here are the rules." There are hundreds of organizations that do that. The rules may be twisted. They may not be fair. They may be wrong. But they are the rules and that is how they do it. As long as you know the rules, it is up to you to comply if you want to play.

In NCRS, they don't follow their own rules and those playing have to guess at what to do.

I saw a guy get dinged because his weatherstripping was inaccurate.

However, it was THE ORIGINAL WEATHERSTRIPPING!

wombvette

I agree totally that the JGs should be as accurate as possible and that there are problems with them. It is not limited to the 63-64 manual either, but that has been the focus lately. The one problem, that I see, is it really is not possible to put a detailed description of each and every individualy part in the JG. That would take a library and is not realistic on the judging field. Thus knowledgeable judges are a must and a system to solve disputes on the field is necessary. This system is in place at an NCSR event and they do a good job of training judges. So, in most cases, errors in the judging manuals are known or suspected and are taken care of on the field, but it is unfortunate that some see the published information and do their cars accordingly. It is also unfortunate that it takes so long to get a change made. My suggestion is, to use the JG as a guide, and gather all of the knowledge that you can. Do your car correctly and take your lumps where you have to. You may be instrumental in getting the manuals changed.

Seaside63

What happens when the one or two people that have the "correct" information in their heads pass on? Or Alzheimer's sets in?

Go forward a few years and imagine a time when we only have a judging guide to count on, not some long-gone enthusiast's memory.

Who cares if the correct information makes a volume 6 inches thick? We don't have to print it out. We can keep it on CD.

If they truly care about the cars they need to get this information now before it's lost forever.

ctjackster

holy crap I agree with Seaside!

wombvette

Holy Crap you agree with anybody.

We are going to nominate Seaside as a committee of one to gather all of the information in all of the books, and in all of us old codgers heads and compile it into a concise volume so it is preserved for posterity.

AZDoug

I sure am glad I built a Resto-Rod.

I think I need another drink.

Doug

Seaside63

It's a new day and the sun is shining


Not me I quit.

Feels great too !!

daddyboats

I've been a basic member of NCRS for almost 10 yrs. Never had a car judged, and after all I've been reading lately..not sure I will. I sometimes wish I had just bought a 'period correct' driver, to drive the hell out of.