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1966 L88 COPO - Are there documented cases of this????

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1966 L88 COPO - Are there documented cases of this????

 
Old 07-31-2008, 02:07 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by joec View Post
Ya, but they'll TF a Callaway now ( )and stand on the podium with those gabroni's at BJ's.... Me thinks it's just about the $$$ now.. They've lost their way (for the most part) and original premise behind the NCRS...

/jc
A CALLAWAY B2K car was a factory RPO and should be included for top flight. A friend of mine just had his given the McLellan award, the first Callaway to get it. This is like a Duntov award for older Corvettes.

Please post with accuracy. Thanks
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by *89x2* View Post
A CALLAWAY B2K car was a factory RPO and should be included for top flight. A friend of mine just had his given the McLellan award, the first Callaway to get it. This is like a Duntov award for older Corvettes.

Please post with accuracy. Thanks
The point that joec was probably making was that the 56 SR cars were St Louis factory production RPO cars and are a significant history of the saving of the Corvette.
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Old 07-31-2008, 11:56 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by *89x2* View Post
A CALLAWAY B2K car was a factory RPO and should be included for top flight. A friend of mine just had his given the McLellan award, the first Callaway to get it. This is like a Duntov award for older Corvettes.

Please post with accuracy. Thanks
Understood... While the "base" car is chevy produced, the rest of the car is done externally. How do you certify it's authenticity? Not all Callaways were Chevy delivered.. Paperwork?? Not reliable and can be faked, but I would hope that Callaway can and does provide sometype of authentication... What's next, Motion Cars?? That would be nice for those that own them or maybe Yenko's..

John's car OBVIOUSLY has the proper doc's so what's the issue here??? Do you know ???

And I did post with accuarcy, you just didn't agree with it.. have good one..

Last edited by joec; 07-31-2008 at 11:59 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 07-31-2008, 02:11 PM
  #44  
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Back to the origins of this thread, I know the guys that bought the remains of the car that were recovered. They still have the floor pan and some other parts. I bought the 4 way flasher from them. I'll call Jerry and see if he will log onto the forum and give you the details. He told me the whole sad story at Bloomington Gold last month. It'll make you cry!
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Old 07-31-2008, 02:34 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by joec View Post
Understood... ..

John's car OBVIOUSLY has the proper doc's so what's the issue here??? Do you know ???
And this is also the whole point I was making earlier.
Over the years, ESPECIALLY during the EARLY years of production, some things were not well documented. Consequently 40-50yrs later, it is difficult to satisfy people about the authenticity of VERY LOW volume options. Probably the LOWEST volume option that immediately comes to mind is the ZL1 of 1969 (only 2 Corvettes got this RPO). As I understand, the whereabouts of just one of the 2 cars is known. When that one car shows up somewhere, it is well enough known that it is accepted as the "real deal".
John's 56 SR1 has sufficient documentation (more than just word of mouth from "experts") to certify that it is a legitimate, St. Louis Corvette plant assembly line built car-------------------NOT A CAR THAT WAS MODIFIED BY GM DESIGNERS OR ENGINEERS AFTER IT WENT OUT THE BACK DOOR OF THE St. LOUIS PLANT!!!!!!!!!!!

I realize this was ORIGINALLY about documented 66 L88 cars, but the key word in this discussion here is DOCUMENTED, which John's SR1 is! (anybody remember the controversy several years ago about the authenticity of the 57 Airbox cars, and their rare, unique features?) Or at least it is as well documented as what would have been done for the 1956 time in history. Remember, the humans that developed, authorized and assembled the special HD features for the 1956 SR1 cars were not thinking about making absolutely positive that 50+yrs later someone was going to challenge the authenticity of these cars. Actually, if the truth be known, those very people most probably expected the cars to be dead and buried by now, thus, there would be no issue about their authenticity!!!
ANYWAY, my final comment is that John has produced what most NORMAL people would accept as legitimate documentation regarding the 56 SR1's St. Louis heritage------------------------and NCRS rejected it!
So, John basically told NCRS to go stick it in their ear. And the sad result is that John's other historically significant EARLY cars will not be seen at any NCRS events for others to observe what the early days of Corvette performance and design was all about!
Oh ya, and for John, it is NOT about the money!

Last edited by DZAUTO; 07-31-2008 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 07-31-2008, 02:57 PM
  #46  
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there are some people in the NCRS that think they should get a commission if any of these "rare" cars are sold and if they are told "no way" they will try and sabotage the sale by saying the documents are not real

Last edited by PAmotorman; 07-31-2008 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:38 PM
  #47  
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Default You know what some people say NCRS really stands for, right?.......

Originally Posted by PAmotorman View Post
there are some people in the NCRS that think they should get a commission if any of these "rare" cars are sold and if they are told "no way" they will try and sabotage the sale by saying the document are not real
.................I've heard it called No Corvette Restored Satisfactorily


Me - I 've owned my '67 for 37 years and don't even pretend to play their game. It's got a ZZ4 and a Tremec 5 spd in it and I use it like Zora intended - I actually drive it!

Last edited by tuxnharley; 07-31-2008 at 03:39 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:11 PM
  #48  
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So, John basically told NCRS to go stick it in their ear. And the sad result is that John's other historically significant EARLY cars will not be seen at any NCRS events for others to observe what the early days of Corvette performance and design was all about!
Oh ya, and for John, it is NOT about the money![/QUOTE]

As an early car enthusiast (notice I didn't say expert) I feel for Jon in regards to the NCRS and acceptance of his 56 SR car.

The hobby has got out of hand, in some regards. As time marches on, the older knowledge base is getting smaller and smaller. As this happens, the lack of acceptance of such things as Jon's car, among other cars and controversies will most likely grow dim, in some respect. My point is that no one who "really ever knew" will be around any longer.

What happens then? It all depends on who owns the vehicle and who they are in the hobby.

In respect to Jon's car, if his documentation and car ownership was in the hands of, let's say, an NCRS judge, would it be different today????
I think I already know the answer.


Food for thought
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:54 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by DZAUTO View Post
ANYWAY, my final comment is that John has produced what most NORMAL people would accept as legitimate documentation regarding the 56 SR1's St. Louis heritage------------------------and NCRS rejected it!
So, John basically told NCRS to go stick it in their ear. And the sad result is that John's other historically significant EARLY cars will not be seen at any NCRS events for others to observe what the early days of Corvette performance and design was all about!
I think you guys are being more than a little unfair to the NCRS. I doubt seriously if the NCRS "rejected" it out of hand. What is more likely (being an NCRS guy myself and very occasional judge) is the the NCRS would not know what to do with it. Since the members, all volunteer, who judge generally work from a judging standard then they can only judge to that standard - and wouldn't be able to address something unique even if it does have documention. What type of meet (if any) was this SR1 brought to? A chapter meet (where the judges are typically the least experienced)? The point is that the differences have to be written into the judging guides for any legitimate judging "award". What were the expectations for the car anyway?

Why not write up an article on the car for the NRCS magazine the "Corvette Restorer"? I'm sure it would not be easily dismissed. In some respects that would be no different than any historian writing an article for peer review and discussion. However, taking the attitude that "the NCRS can stick it" seems a little immature to me.
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Old 07-31-2008, 06:28 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by DZAUTO View Post
Probably the LOWEST volume option that immediately comes to mind is the ZL1 of 1969 (only 2 Corvettes got this RPO). As I understand, the whereabouts of just one of the 2 cars is known.
Now you have me wondering. Which ZL-1 don't you think is real, the yellow coupe in Florida or the orange convertible in Pennsylvania?
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Old 07-31-2008, 06:37 PM
  #51  
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wow.. like has been stated before this is a great thread with lots of information.. I'm enjoying it... but..

Back to the original 66 BB.. One person stated that this car was NOT insured??? I didn't see that anywhere in any post. What is amazing is that they stole 3 toolboxes, a sun distributor machine, a welder, assorted other goodies and the car... And nobody saw a damn thing??? And in a residential neighborhood... Now that's wierd..

Going back to John's SR1.. This is just pure Bullsheet... I don't think we're being unfair though.. I also am a NCRS member (#2862) and a somtimes judge but don't think for a second that they don't know what to do with it.. Writing an article for the NCRS Restorer is doubtful since its NCRS's magazine.. Like most organizations, over time it loses what it was originally intended to do and becomes all about politics, who you know.. Are there some great people in the NCRS that are very knowledgeable and above all of the BS.. Sure are and I have the pleasure of knowing some of them....
So If I was John, I'd tell them the same thing.. It has nothing to do with immaturity, surely not on John's part...
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:29 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by emccomas View Post
Now you have me wondering. Which ZL-1 don't you think is real, the yellow coupe in Florida or the orange convertible in Pennsylvania?
thats what I was thinking...
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:44 PM
  #53  
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I'm sure that it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past time for me to shutup (Chime in John if you think I need to shutup), but I will add one more comment, then I'll back out of this discussion.
John is a MAJOR fan of the EARLY performance/racing efforts of the Corvette (PRIOR to the AMA ban on factory supported racing in May 57). Consequently, he has acquired knowledge that VERY FEW people know about, or will ever see. Because I've personally examined John's documentation, engineering letters, shop orders, etc, etc, I'm perfectly satisfied it is all genuine. Furthermore, all you have to do is examine these cars up close, and it is quite evident that they were fabricated------------------BY GM------------------not some back alley shop!
John is financially capable of doing/acquiring whatever he wants-------------no mater the cost. PLUS (and this is the great part about John), he is one of the most unpretentious, unassuming people you could ever know. If you didn't know John personally, he could very easily pass as one of the employees flippin' burgers ad MickyDs. They don't come much more down to earth than John.
Bare with me, I'm going somewhere with this!
After acquiring the 56 SR1, because it was so rare, and such a VERY low volume car, he spent a LOT of everything to assure it was returned, as closely as possible, based on the documentation/information that he could obtain, to the way it rolled out the back door of the St. Louis plant back in June of 1956. Furthermore, he offered EVERYTHING he had accumulated for judging, to NCRS.
Now, I may have this part a little bit incorrect, but as I remember, when this all was being prepared a few years ago, John was essentially told NOT to bring the car, because it wouldn't be accepted for judging (John, you want to clarify any of this?). If this is not totally correct, I'm not too far off from the truth of how it all came down.
If I understand the rules correctly, a car can be submitted for judging, and if the field is not filled, it must be accepted for judging, REGARDLESS of whether it may or may not attain a flight.
Now, how do I know all of this? First of all, John and I are very good friends. Second, I've worked on several of John's cars (engines, FI rebuilds, rears, 4spds, suspension rebuilds, etc, etc). Last, John has shown me all of his documentation, letters, etc. Some of which is so unique that its more like a trophy.
Sooooooooooooooooooooooo, do you think John (it is NOT my place) is going to write an article for NCRS????? I DON'T THINK SO! John went through the proper processes for NCRS judging, and was rejected. The ball is in their court----------------------so far, not a peep out of NCRS. By the way, John's cars have been displayed in other very prestigeous events, AND, as we speak, he has a VERY WELL documented, 57 race car on display at the NCM!!!!! There is NOTHING that can be disputed on this car because its complete history is rock solid!!!
OK, I'm done.
Your turn John.



Last edited by DZAUTO; 07-31-2008 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 07-31-2008, 10:44 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by emccomas View Post
Now you have me wondering. Which ZL-1 don't you think is real, the yellow coupe in Florida or the orange convertible in Pennsylvania?
John Z claims it's the white one in Kalifornia?
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Old 07-31-2008, 10:56 PM
  #55  
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I had always understood that Judski's yellow/black stripe and Otis Chandler's white one were the real deal. The first time I saw the orange convt with Gulf stickers was in Springfield 93, I think. Wasn't it an automatic??? Can't imagine a ZL1 with AT. The orange one was the one everyone doubted at the time, only because it had just surfaced.

Does anyone really know about the white one and the orange one?

Was the orange Gulf car an L88 or am I right about it being a ZL1?????
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Old 08-01-2008, 01:45 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by 65 Hardnoks View Post
John Z claims it's the white one in Kalifornia?
That's the one in the Kevin Suydam collection that was originally owned by an IRS agent and has ZERO documentation.
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Old 08-01-2008, 01:50 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by DZAUTO View Post
By the way, John's cars have been displayed in other very prestigeous events, AND, as we speak, he has a VERY WELL documented, 57 race car on display at the NCM!!!!! There is NOTHING that can be disputed on this car because its complete history is rock solid!!!
I have no dog in this fight, but it seems to me that any one of John's cars would be excellent candidates for the NCRS "American Heritage Award", which recognizes Styling cars and significant Corvettes with race history.
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Old 08-01-2008, 02:39 PM
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JohnZ,
Just out of simple curiosity, where does the Z tie in?
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Old 08-01-2008, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DZAUTO View Post
JohnZ,
Just out of simple curiosity, where does the Z tie in?
Waaayy back in the early 90's when I selected a username for various on-line forums for the first time, there were lots of "John-somethings" already taken out there, but there were none ending in "Z", so that's the one I picked.
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Old 08-01-2008, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnZ View Post
I have no dog in this fight, but it seems to me that any one of John's cars would be excellent candidates for the NCRS "American Heritage Award", which recognizes Styling cars and significant Corvettes with race history.
John, your opinion is respected and the American Heritage Award was offered to the production SR cars. The owners have declined as they believe that the first production cars which left the factory with RPO race options are two of the most important production Corvettes made.
Ed Cole saved the car in 1956 by making it into a performance car and making these cars were part of the process.
NCRS mission statement states that is " dedicated to the restoration,preservation,history and enjoyment of Corvettes ". Our point is history.
Regards

Last edited by john neas; 08-01-2008 at 04:54 PM. Reason: yr
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