crunch time..............panel bonding
06-20-2009, 05:54 PM
#1
Safety Car
Thread Starter
crunch time..............panel bonding
Getting close to bonding replacement body panels. These are the PM Sermersheim panels. The left side top fender, lower parking lamp panel, header bar, left side inner and outer metal headlight bucket supports, and the front upper nose assembly are being replaced.
So far the work has centered on the small stuff - fixing cracks, tears, and some general body work on other areas of the car. I've never done this before so I'm using the Glas-Ra and Eckler's booklets as 'how-to' guides and doing the repairs the way they show in these publications.
As mentioned by John McGraw I'll be using Eckler's bonding adhesive. The left side top fender gets bonded, first. The plan is to use a standard caulking gun to apply the bonding adhesive to the bonding strip and the various flanges that also support and adhere the underside of the top fender. The use of the caulking gun application will hopefully buy a bit of extra time before the bonding adhesive cooks off. I have various clamps, duct tape, etc., for use to hold things in place and 25 pound bags of shot to hold things down, if needed.
I'm considering using one screw, in the front part of the inside drainage channel of the top fender, nearest the hood front. This, to hold down tightly this part of the top fender, as well as for exact placement and critical alignment. I'm a little reluctant to do this, but, in this instance is this ok to do? .. In previous thread posts I've read where screws shouldn't be used. .. Thoughts? ..
Then too, the mixing instructions on the container of the bonding adhesive are a bit vague in just 'how much' catalyst to use with a given amount of adhesive. How best to approach this? .. Test samples? ..
Also, is there a general minimum thickness of final bonding adhesive material when the panel and the bonding flange(s) it will be adhering to, are fitted and come together for final set? ..
If anyone might have input or further advice that the publications I'm using might have overlooked, please chime in! .. Experience is everything. ..
It's just as hard to do it right the first time and that is what I'm trying to do here.
So far the work has centered on the small stuff - fixing cracks, tears, and some general body work on other areas of the car. I've never done this before so I'm using the Glas-Ra and Eckler's booklets as 'how-to' guides and doing the repairs the way they show in these publications.
As mentioned by John McGraw I'll be using Eckler's bonding adhesive. The left side top fender gets bonded, first. The plan is to use a standard caulking gun to apply the bonding adhesive to the bonding strip and the various flanges that also support and adhere the underside of the top fender. The use of the caulking gun application will hopefully buy a bit of extra time before the bonding adhesive cooks off. I have various clamps, duct tape, etc., for use to hold things in place and 25 pound bags of shot to hold things down, if needed.
I'm considering using one screw, in the front part of the inside drainage channel of the top fender, nearest the hood front. This, to hold down tightly this part of the top fender, as well as for exact placement and critical alignment. I'm a little reluctant to do this, but, in this instance is this ok to do? .. In previous thread posts I've read where screws shouldn't be used. .. Thoughts? ..
Then too, the mixing instructions on the container of the bonding adhesive are a bit vague in just 'how much' catalyst to use with a given amount of adhesive. How best to approach this? .. Test samples? ..
Also, is there a general minimum thickness of final bonding adhesive material when the panel and the bonding flange(s) it will be adhering to, are fitted and come together for final set? ..
If anyone might have input or further advice that the publications I'm using might have overlooked, please chime in! .. Experience is everything. ..
It's just as hard to do it right the first time and that is what I'm trying to do here.
06-20-2009, 06:14 PM
#2
Team Owner
I'm not trying to be a smart ****...but with all the parts you have bought to fix your front end plus labor on your part...do you think it would have been cheaper to buy a complete front end?
jack
jack
06-20-2009, 07:28 PM
#3
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Jack ..
I got hung up on wanting to keep the car as 'original' as possible - meaning keeping as many intact original body panels, as possible.
The other consideration was fixing the car the way it originally came from the factory. That would mean a PM front clip, at about 5K in price. The panels and bonding strips I eventually purchased ran about 1K. I preferred not to use the 'one-piece' front end.
Without being able to find original body panels the next best thing was to use PM repop panels. I had wanted to go with Corvette Image PM panels but used Sermersheim panels, instead. Seems CI had a chronic problem with panels not curing properly resulting in paint blistering problems.
The time factor. .. Strangely, I'm having a good time doing this as a DIY project. However long it takes, I'm ok with it. With retirement comes the one thing most treasured...............TIME! ..
Anyway, the car, once everything finishes out might not be completely body original.......................but...... ...............the one thing it will always be is.......................a CORVETTE! ..
..
I got hung up on wanting to keep the car as 'original' as possible - meaning keeping as many intact original body panels, as possible.
The other consideration was fixing the car the way it originally came from the factory. That would mean a PM front clip, at about 5K in price. The panels and bonding strips I eventually purchased ran about 1K. I preferred not to use the 'one-piece' front end.
Without being able to find original body panels the next best thing was to use PM repop panels. I had wanted to go with Corvette Image PM panels but used Sermersheim panels, instead. Seems CI had a chronic problem with panels not curing properly resulting in paint blistering problems.
The time factor. .. Strangely, I'm having a good time doing this as a DIY project. However long it takes, I'm ok with it. With retirement comes the one thing most treasured...............TIME! ..
Anyway, the car, once everything finishes out might not be completely body original.......................but...... ...............the one thing it will always be is.......................a CORVETTE! ..
..
06-20-2009, 07:31 PM
#4
Get a second person, preferably one who has done this before to help.
Trial fit over and over until you can get the panel on and positioned very quickly as you don't have a lot of time.
Drilling holes and putting in screws was how it was done long ago, but doing it now will leave a hole that will show. Be sure you put it where no one will notice after you are done and painted, because odds are it will show in about 3 years.
Trial fit over and over until you can get the panel on and positioned very quickly as you don't have a lot of time.
Drilling holes and putting in screws was how it was done long ago, but doing it now will leave a hole that will show. Be sure you put it where no one will notice after you are done and painted, because odds are it will show in about 3 years.
06-20-2009, 09:58 PM
#5
Panel Bonding
Two questions:
Have you purchased the adhesive? If so, disregard the next question.
If you're not concerned what the color/level of gloss the adhesive is, you might consider 3M 8115 adhesive, it has a 90 minute window which
takes alot of the stress away. 8115 cartridges do require a special gun, one of which is pricey & the other about 50.
HTH, Good Luck! Bob L.
Have you purchased the adhesive? If so, disregard the next question.
If you're not concerned what the color/level of gloss the adhesive is, you might consider 3M 8115 adhesive, it has a 90 minute window which
takes alot of the stress away. 8115 cartridges do require a special gun, one of which is pricey & the other about 50.
HTH, Good Luck! Bob L.
06-20-2009, 10:22 PM
#6
Race Director
Get a second person, preferably one who has done this before to help.
Trial fit over and over until you can get the panel on and positioned very quickly as you don't have a lot of time.
Drilling holes and putting in screws was how it was done long ago, but doing it now will leave a hole that will show. Be sure you put it where no one will notice after you are done and painted, because odds are it will show in about 3 years.
Trial fit over and over until you can get the panel on and positioned very quickly as you don't have a lot of time.
Drilling holes and putting in screws was how it was done long ago, but doing it now will leave a hole that will show. Be sure you put it where no one will notice after you are done and painted, because odds are it will show in about 3 years.
Experiment with the hardner amount first. You might waste some bonding agent doing so but you will at least get the ratio worked out safely. Someone on here many years ago suggested keeping the bonding agent refrigerated before using to slow down the chemical reaction and allow more working time.
06-20-2009, 11:11 PM
#7
Cruising
Member Since: Sep 2006
Location: lincoln ne.
Posts: 13
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crunch time
finally, someone who agrees with me. clamps and non screw methods are usually best but sometimes in the real world i believe screws must be used. think of a screw hole as a break or crack and fix it the same way. also i always use a roller on the mat and what i believe is very important-use heat on all repairs. i realize some with more experience will disagree but i believe screw holes can be repaired without shrinking back. thanks for listenig to my opinion.
06-20-2009, 11:27 PM
#8
Race Director
Two questions:
Have you purchased the adhesive? If so, disregard the next question.
If you're not concerned what the color/level of gloss the adhesive is, you might consider 3M 8115 adhesive, it has a 90 minute window which
takes alot of the stress away. 8115 cartridges do require a special gun, one of which is pricey & the other about 50.
HTH, Good Luck! Bob L.
Have you purchased the adhesive? If so, disregard the next question.
If you're not concerned what the color/level of gloss the adhesive is, you might consider 3M 8115 adhesive, it has a 90 minute window which
takes alot of the stress away. 8115 cartridges do require a special gun, one of which is pricey & the other about 50.
HTH, Good Luck! Bob L.
very good stuff and is workable in that while great holding power its movable and can be moved like the above quote suggests...slow curing helps avoid making mistakes or eliminates them. Very popular with dealerships and almost put welding quarters into history or 'old school' its that good....
06-22-2009, 11:37 PM
#9
Safety Car
Thread Starter
The suggestion of cooling the adhesive in the fridge to gain more set time sounds like a great idea. I will definitely have to check that out with a couple of test samples.
Got a bit of 'experience', yesterday. The lower left side parking light panel bonding strip was bonded to the parking light panel. A number of soft jaw plastic clamps were used to hold the assembly together, while the bonding adhesive set up.
Eckler's bonding adhesive is being used. The catalyst/adhesive mix ratio was roughly the same as was used when catalyzing body filler. It appears, at least with the Eckler's brand bonding adhesive, this adhesive started cooking off at around 15 minutes. That should be adequate time to make sure things are just so when in comes time to bond the 'big stuff'. ..
If anyone might be interested I'll post back the set time difference between ambient, and fridge cooled bonding adhesive.
Got a bit of 'experience', yesterday. The lower left side parking light panel bonding strip was bonded to the parking light panel. A number of soft jaw plastic clamps were used to hold the assembly together, while the bonding adhesive set up.
Eckler's bonding adhesive is being used. The catalyst/adhesive mix ratio was roughly the same as was used when catalyzing body filler. It appears, at least with the Eckler's brand bonding adhesive, this adhesive started cooking off at around 15 minutes. That should be adequate time to make sure things are just so when in comes time to bond the 'big stuff'. ..
If anyone might be interested I'll post back the set time difference between ambient, and fridge cooled bonding adhesive.
06-23-2009, 01:32 PM
#10
Melting Slicks
06-24-2009, 09:57 PM
#12
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Here are the 'result's, if you could call it that. A dab of Eckler's bonding adhesive, about 1 1/2 inches square and 1/4 inch high was refrigerated and used as a test sample against a like amount of ambient air temperature bonding adhesive. This, to see how much 'cook-off' set time difference might be gained by refrigerating this particular brand of bonding adhesive, then adding catalyst, and then comparing it to a like sample of ambient air temp bonding adhesive.
I have to say the results are inconclusive. By the time I catalyzed both the refrigerated sample, and the ambient air temperature sample, the refrigerated sample had already climbed in temperature fairly rapidly. The difference in temperature had closed the gap to within 5 degrees - between the refrigerated sample, and the ambient air sample that came out of the container. Both samples were 'shot' with a mini infrared temp gun after being catalyzed. Refer sample - 75* .. Like size sample straight out of the container - 70*. The ambient air temperature was 71*.
Considering the small size of the refrigerated test sample, it was likely to rise in temperature, once out of the fridge, sure. Even so, the refrigerated test sample temperature rose much faster than expected in the surrounding ambient air. Both samples were done in the shade - no direct sunlight influence.
Both test samples cooked off about 15-16 minutes from the time catalyst was added.
What to make of it? .. NOT MUCH! .. Thinking I'll use the bonding adhesive straight out of the container 'as is'.
I have to say the results are inconclusive. By the time I catalyzed both the refrigerated sample, and the ambient air temperature sample, the refrigerated sample had already climbed in temperature fairly rapidly. The difference in temperature had closed the gap to within 5 degrees - between the refrigerated sample, and the ambient air sample that came out of the container. Both samples were 'shot' with a mini infrared temp gun after being catalyzed. Refer sample - 75* .. Like size sample straight out of the container - 70*. The ambient air temperature was 71*.
Considering the small size of the refrigerated test sample, it was likely to rise in temperature, once out of the fridge, sure. Even so, the refrigerated test sample temperature rose much faster than expected in the surrounding ambient air. Both samples were done in the shade - no direct sunlight influence.
Both test samples cooked off about 15-16 minutes from the time catalyst was added.
What to make of it? .. NOT MUCH! .. Thinking I'll use the bonding adhesive straight out of the container 'as is'.
06-26-2009, 08:15 PM
#13
Race Director
Here are the 'result's, if you could call it that. A dab of Eckler's bonding adhesive, about 1 1/2 inches square and 1/4 inch high was refrigerated and used as a test sample against a like amount of ambient air temperature bonding adhesive. This, to see how much 'cook-off' set time difference might be gained by refrigerating this particular brand of bonding adhesive, then adding catalyst, and then comparing it to a like sample of ambient air temp bonding adhesive.
I have to say the results are inconclusive. By the time I catalyzed both the refrigerated sample, and the ambient air temperature sample, the refrigerated sample had already climbed in temperature fairly rapidly. The difference in temperature had closed the gap to within 5 degrees - between the refrigerated sample, and the ambient air sample that came out of the container. Both samples were 'shot' with a mini infrared temp gun after being catalyzed. Refer sample - 75* .. Like size sample straight out of the container - 70*. The ambient air temperature was 71*.
Considering the small size of the refrigerated test sample, it was likely to rise in temperature, once out of the fridge, sure. Even so, the refrigerated test sample temperature rose much faster than expected in the surrounding ambient air. Both samples were done in the shade - no direct sunlight influence.
Both test samples cooked off about 15-16 minutes from the time catalyst was added.
What to make of it? .. NOT MUCH! .. Thinking I'll use the bonding adhesive straight out of the container 'as is'.
I have to say the results are inconclusive. By the time I catalyzed both the refrigerated sample, and the ambient air temperature sample, the refrigerated sample had already climbed in temperature fairly rapidly. The difference in temperature had closed the gap to within 5 degrees - between the refrigerated sample, and the ambient air sample that came out of the container. Both samples were 'shot' with a mini infrared temp gun after being catalyzed. Refer sample - 75* .. Like size sample straight out of the container - 70*. The ambient air temperature was 71*.
Considering the small size of the refrigerated test sample, it was likely to rise in temperature, once out of the fridge, sure. Even so, the refrigerated test sample temperature rose much faster than expected in the surrounding ambient air. Both samples were done in the shade - no direct sunlight influence.
Both test samples cooked off about 15-16 minutes from the time catalyst was added.
What to make of it? .. NOT MUCH! .. Thinking I'll use the bonding adhesive straight out of the container 'as is'.
Dan
06-27-2009, 05:28 AM
#14
Drifting
When you handle those cloth shot bags, wear some breathing protection and wash your hands before you eat, drink, or smoke. Leather bags are slightly better. Lead is toxic and the effect is cumulative. Good luck and take care.
06-27-2009, 01:12 PM
#15
Safety Car
Thread Starter
The only legal way of 'dispensing' lead into the environment is through the barrel of a rifle, handgun, or shotgun. As you are probably aware, waterfowl hunters are now restricted to steel shot only. Upland bird hunters are still ok to use lead in their hunting rounds, but, there is talk that will change over to the steel shot only requirement, as well.
I like shooting skeet (skeet league) and reload my own shot shells. At present, lead shot is still ok for use in the shotgun shooting sports (skeet, trap, sporting clays). There is talk here, as well, that the shotgun shooting sports will also be faced with the steel shot only requirement. Given the state of affairs here in the People's Republik of Kalifornia the steel shot only requirement just may be on the political horizon, for everything.
Any other skeet shooters here on the forum?
06-27-2009, 03:48 PM
#16
Drifting
I was lucky enough to pick up about 1000 lbs of Lino-type from a print shop going out of business. It is stored along with about 1000 lbs of wheel weights and pure lead bars. Lead sinkers are under attack as well. Handguns are my primary interest. I'm not a survivalist, but I think lead will become hard to get before long and wanted to keep my options open.
