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Borg Warner T5 In A 59

 
Old 08-19-2009, 11:56 PM
  #1  
lynns59
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Default Borg Warner T5 In A 59

I currently have an M21 Muncie in my 59 and was thinking about swapping out to a T5. I've got a mild 327 in the car and I don't race or abuse it so I don't think I would have a problem with tearing up a T5. I've read the post about the 63 which shows how to modify the shifter. I also know that I want one of the later World Class units. What I need to know is what's involved in doing this conversion. What kind of bell housing, clutch linkage, etc. do I need. Will I have to get a different trans. cross member or can I modify my original one? Have any of you done this conversion?
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:08 AM
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Tom Austin
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I'll take a shot at this one as I've also been following this topic for several years. My '66 has an L79, 4 speed with a 4:11 rear - so I need an overdrive in a big way. I've followed the posts from several members who have installed a T5, and have begun to assemble the parts to accomplish this in my car as well (will probably do it over the winter). The first thing you'll need is a new bellhousing for this application - it rotates the tranny @ 17 degrees toward the driver for better shifter location (at least for a C2). These are available on ebay from time to time - and come in hydraulic and non applications (I'm going non). Then you'll need a World Class Chevy T5 - also available on ebay (I just got a great one for $175 about three weeks ago!!!). Be careful when you "shop" as there are lots of T5's out there - you need to know which one you're getting - here's the link with proper ID numbers (look for the TAG #) - - > http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Bo...T5-ID-Tags.htm

From there you'll need to shorten your driveshaft, and fabricate a shifter that will work - and many on the forum have addressed that issue so far. Hope this helps. Good luck with your project.

Tom
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:27 AM
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I don't know how it will fit in a C1, but I can say it will be worth the effort and you don't have to worry about hurting it. I have run mine hard for years now and no problems and it is smooth as silk and fun to drive.

The install is really very straight forward with just a few problems to over come.

Jeff
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Old 08-20-2009, 11:13 AM
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So what kind of Chevy donor vehicle does the right bell housing need to come from? I don't want to run a hydraulic clutch so I don't want that. I also understand from what I've read that I want a World Class unit. As far as the shifter goes I see how to modify that. What about the pressure plate and clutch? What do I need to buy?
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Old 08-20-2009, 11:27 AM
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Tom Austin
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The bellhousing also needs to come from a Camaro/Firebird that was equipped with a T5. I don't see one listed on ebay right now but they pop up quite often. If you do find one that's hydraulic, I understand you can modify it to work for your application.
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Old 08-20-2009, 11:58 AM
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Make sure when you are looking for a T5 that it came from a V8 Camaro or Firebird. 1982 to I think 1989 or 1990. I have been running a non world class for years with no problem, but they say a world class is better.

Most early GM T5s come with the mechanical speedo drive and most late ones come with electronic drive. I think you can by an adapter for the electric drive to convert to mechanical drive thou.

Jeff
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Old 08-20-2009, 02:00 PM
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Thanks for the info guys
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Old 08-20-2009, 02:36 PM
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JohnFromVentura
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This will make a very nice conversion. I'm not sure that you have enough room in a C1, if I understand this correctly,to rotate the transmission 17*? If this is the case you might be better off with your stock bell housing (I think its a 365?) and make a dog-leg adaptor for the shifter? Try and touch base with someone that has done this conversion and have them put their hand between the trans and the floorboard to see if the 17* is viable in a C1? Also, you will either have to pull the engine or move it forward to get the trans in.
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Old 08-20-2009, 03:11 PM
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I posted pics and details last year on the T-5 I installed in my 65. If you pm me with a phone no. or I'll send you mine, I would be more then happy to go over the build and share pics. I know I can save you a lot of grief and disappointment. I spent a little after purchasing mine to make sure I had no problems after the install. So far so good, and I'm loving it.

Dennis
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Old 08-21-2009, 08:02 PM
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Any info on what clutch and pressure plate to use? I've been calling around to the local salvage yards looking for a T5 but I've come up empty so far.
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Old 08-22-2009, 12:29 AM
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Haven't got a pm from anyone yet so I figure you all most know. Your pressure plate will be fine as long as it's in good shape. The spline is different on the trans so you will need a new clutch.

Dennis

This is the clutch rod I made up. The angle on the T-5 bell housings clutch fork [it must be modified], is at a angle to the cross over shaft. The end on each end of the rod was adjustable, I also Heim joints to avoid any hang ups.
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Old 08-22-2009, 01:14 AM
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Default Interested in following the thread

Lynns59, I have a '58 and I am very intersted in the following this thread. The forum has several posts that offer suggestions either the Mustang or Camaro T5's (Mustang is angled). Please keep me in the loop as you line out all the parts.

Don
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Old 08-22-2009, 01:30 AM
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I have been told about a Car Craft write up where they used a Mustang T5 and installed it in a 69 Camaro. They said to use an aftermarket bell housing and the T5 yoke which is something else I was unsure of. I don't know the diameter and spline count of a T5.
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by lynns59 View Post
I have been told about a Car Craft write up where they used a Mustang T5 and installed it in a 69 Camaro. They said to use an aftermarket bell housing and the T5 yoke which is something else I was unsure of. I don't know the diameter and spline count of a T5.
The GM T5 uses the muncie 4 speed slip yoke and the V8 T5s input shaft uses the fine spline clutch disc. Other than the clutch disc, the GM T5 will bolt up to most bell housings that a muncie came out of. There are a few exceptions where some muncies have a smaller bearing retainer, thus the bell housing has a smaller hole.

The GM T5 Camaro-Firebird bell housing is tipped 17 degrees to the left so the shifter will come out close to the proper location.


Here are a couple links to info on the T5 conversion if they still work. Dennis (OCS1667) also has a nice write up on his installation in the C2 forum.




Sorry the links are not showing up on my computer.
Jeff
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:55 AM
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I will try to post the link to the C3 forum that has a ton of T5 info, hope it works, but it may be locked or something.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-a...5-in-63-a.html


Jeff
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Old 08-22-2009, 02:33 PM
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The World Class T5 (1988 Z28/Firebird >) will barely clear the trans. hump towards the rear, you will likely have to trim the boss on the rear housing that the torque bar was attached. Also, there is very little room on either side, but it will fit with some removal of fiberglass material. The only T5 bell housing that will work with a mechanical clutch is the '83 Z28/Firebird 5 sp. car, after that they are all hydraulic. The 83 housing will tilt the trans. 17 deg. and may present clearance issues and the shifter will come out to the driver's side of the hump. I used a late ('78-82) 4 sp aluminum mechanical bell housing, which accepted the trans. without tilting it. You have to make a new cross support (crossmember) for the trans., good news is that it bolts to the frame in the exact spot of the original C1. If you go tilted, the trans mount is horizontal, if you go straight in, the mount is tilted 17 deg. and you have to fabricate a correct angle support. I did it fairly easily and I'm not a professional. I am using an aftermarket aluminum driveshaft. The U-joints you will need depend on the type of trans. yoke you use, there are several types. I use the stock T5 at the front and the original C1 at the rear. In the non-tilt trans. installlation, I had to fabricate a bracket to except the clutch bellcrank that bolted to two of the side attachment bolts on the bell housing, otherwise the mechanical clutch set up is a cinch. The shifter is located near the original C1, but you may not be able to use the original boot plate. When all is done, you'll love it. Shifts smoother, has an overdrive gear, is strong, light, and you can even hook up the speedo cable (at least to '92?). Hope this helps.
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:23 PM
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dgsmith, I posted a photo showing the removal of the boss's you describe along with the removal of the bracket on the bell housing of the T-5. I hope those planing will use the info. available to them.
Dennis
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:40 PM
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I want to tackle this project over the winter. I thought I had read that a there was a way to make a hybrid gm/ford t-5 that didn't require any special bell housing and had the shifter come up in the right position...
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Old 08-22-2009, 10:00 PM
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I'm not sure what you are planing to gain with a term like hybrid, are you taking about an adaptor to some how join one type of a trans. to another bell-housing to avoid the clocking of the trans. I'm not sure what you would gain along with the extra expense, and for what gain.

The Ford T-5 may have a different dimension from the front mounting point to the shifting point. Goggle T-5 transmission, and see if that is so.

The length of the transmission, and the distance of the shifting point limit the adapter thickness. The slightest amount moves the shift point farther back. I was able to create a dog leg to over come a slight problem, adding more distance would create additional problems. One major problem I'm sure never crossed most minds is the vibrations you will incur. By playing around with the above mentioned ways to defeat the clocking you may not be able to raise the transmission enough to eliminate this problem because of the cars design limitations. It may be different on a C-1, and that's fine, but a C-2 with independent suspension is another story. I had to remove material from under beneath my shifting counsel to gain the mechanical degrees to eliminate vibration. In the photo below I cut the shifter below the body of the car and added the dog leg to shift into reverse You have to shift to the right and down for reverse. Jeff approached the same problem, and solved it by welding an adaptor plate onto the shifter.

I mentioned earlier send me your phone or I'll send you mine on a PM. I'm more then happy to share what I know, and then you can take it from there.

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Old 08-23-2009, 12:22 AM
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1. 'Bopewells" Bob Wells on the the forum has a 61 that has a salvage yard T-5. As Bob described it, only some minor glass work around the ash tray was needed.

2.I searched around and came to the conclusion that it will cost about $1,000 to get a rebuilt T-5 to put in a C-1

3. I have Kiesler T-45 pre issue kit in my shop that I decided to use instead. All I have to fab is cross mount for the tail at the X-frame. When I get back in country in a few weeks, I will put it in my 61.

I am sure a T-5 will work fine for 300 hp, the T-45 will go about 400 hp without the weight and cost of the 600 kit

Joe
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