mashinter

Hot Rod did a drag test of a '63 11.0:1 Plymouth. They added slicks, a 4.56:1, leaf spring clips, and cranked up the front torsion bars. They ran 12.69@112 with the factory manifolds and lakes outlets open. They got beat in eliminations by a '62 13.5:1 413 with tubular headers, which ran 12.40@116.

john neas

Larry Lombardo drove Grumpys Pro Stock Monza etc. for several years and had the following results in the NHRA World Championship.
1976 1st
1977 3rd
1978 2nd
1979 7th

Regards

Jim Dillon

I was referring to the 62 11.1 413s which my knowledge of is non-existent. I was not sure if it had any of the 413 13.5 goodies, they may have I don't know. If they did they probably performed quite well, if not then I may need some convincing. The earlier 383 and 361s were dogs even with the two fours. The later 383s were a marketing ploy that were over-hyped-Beep,Beep.

In 63 the 413s were old news, they were running 426 wedge stage 1 and stage 2 cars. They were a better animal with better breathing and better camshafts (I know I tried a couple of them). I believe the tests with the 63 cars, as I said I had a 426 wedge (was told it was a stage 2 although I could not bet my life on it as I was told other fables about the motor as well). Nevertheless even though mine was tired it pulled real strong but then again you could get maybe a 1000 additional RPMs over the 383s. Good running cars.

Dan, Larry Lombardo did go to work for Jenkins as a driver-when he won at Indy (68) we were about the same age, I think he was 18 and I was 17 when he won. That guy could flat out drive that car, plus he had a pretty good tuner as it turned out (Sinistri). I would like to go back and tear down his setup to see what he did. The car "Buckshot" is apparently in Pa. and will be rebuilt. Always one of my favorites as well as Ginanino (street eliminator winner in 68) and Kanners (street eliminator winner in 67) with their 57s.

Dan Hampton

Thanks, Jim. '68 was the year. Ed Hedrick is a good friend of mine and he set numerous records in his DragonSnake back then (A/SP through C/SP). He went on to be Grump's Pro Stock driver in the late 60s. He was part of the Moroso consortium (Jenkins, Hedrick, Stahl and Moroso). Wild times and great memories. Thanks for the info. I would love to see the Lombardo car.

provette67

I happened to be involved with this little match race when it happened.It was with the sanctioning body called NMCA.There was a Mopar guy that put it out there that the beach boys were wrong and that "no way" would the vette beat the Mopar.Along the series schedule match races were setup on the show schedule.The Mopar guy was a big collector/racer who ran the whole season in his car in it's race car class.His car was far from stock.The vettes for the most part were cars that were on the show field dripping with Armor All and were coaxed into it for the exhibition.I was running my '64 tube chassis pro street car in that series at the time.A buddy of mine and I decided to give this guy a real test.The rules were that the car had to run what ever class the car fit in to.The Vette was in the small block class and the mopar big block.The car had to use stock induction system and carb size.Jets though were definetly changed out.The suspension too was to be stock.Slicks were allowed.The big advantage for the Mopar was the size of the tire.You were allowed any size that would fit in the stock wheel well.Which on a midyear was not much.The Mopar to that point had won every stop along the way.His best time at the time was a 13.30.We figured that he was sand bagging and like most drag racers was cheating.My buddy had a wrong motor roadster that he was going to restore.We put together a 327.Far from an expensive race motor which the Mopar was running.But we were long time drag racers so we had a few tricks in our bag as well.After getting the car together we had a couple of weeks to get it dialed in to see which combo of tranny and rear gears worked best for us.It ended up being a 4:88 rear with a close ratio muncie and some 90/10 shocks.I wish that I could remember exactly the tranny ratio that we used but I cannot because we kept changing them until it ran the quickest.The Series finals was in Memphis back then.So that is when we went after him.Like I said we figured that he was sand bagging so we figgured that our best shot was on the first run out of the best two out of three races.The night before we left for Memphis we tested at out local track and ran 12.30's on a perfect cool night.So we had a little suprise for Mr.Mopar.We get to Mempis and it is some 90+ degrees with humidity way high.The first race goes as planned.We stunned him running a 12.50 to his 12.90.Easily his best time in the match races to that point.Then the next run he lets the beast out.We ran a 12.40 and some how he ran 11.90.Apparently the sand ran out of his bag.He made the comment that he put a new set of plugs in itThe final we run another 12.40 to his winning 12.00.But it did not matter to us.We did what we came to do.We beat him.Justice came to us in the end.He won his class that weekend.In tear down he was found to be illegal and was disqualified What is it we say in racing.If you ain't cheating you ain't trying

Matt Gruber

my '63 Valient 225 slant 6 had a best run of 13.91, best mph 101.12
was quite a sleeper. it was 6 SECONDS quicker than stock

Mark_Milner

We have a winner. The race is never finished. But we know the 413 is ahead.

Also, this is 1963. It is the 360 hp FI, not the 375 hp FI.

I've always thought of it as wishful thinking on the Sting Ray driver's part. "Just shut it off, man, I'm going to beat you."

I also figured the Sting Ray lost, simply because he was behind and I doubt he was going to gain so much top end as to fly by. Gearing didn't give them all that much top end back then.



With all the sources of lyrics today, we don't have any real answers. Some list it as a Super Stock Dodge, others as a Super Stock Dart. There are several other differences. Only the original and official lyrics would give clues.

And most importantly, it is just a song. It is written by guys who had been writing about guys winning the girl of their dreams, catching a perfect wave, having an endless summer, and having everyone in school think you were cool. In other words, a lot of fantasy.

What makes you think this song is "fact"?

GCD1962

Lombardo drove for Jenkins for awhile (didn't see previous post)

A good friend "Skeet" Russell was an NHRA record holder in the 60s with his C/SA 361 CI, 330 HP Plymouth. He ran consistent mid 13s with 7" slicks and headers. NHRA was very strict back then to ensure engines were stock. He was selected as one of NHRA's "Golden 50" and the car was at the recent Indy Nationals. He still has the car (his mother bought it new, then Skeet took it over to race). Only recent change was to add a 2-4s set up (which was available back then). His best time so far is arou nd 12.40 at 115 mph - almost the same as a new 430 hp C-6 ! The car still has to original shortblock and trans (modified Torqueflight by Fairbanks). Incedible how grea the car looks and runs after 45 years ! All that said I vote for the 413 to beat the Vette back then

Donny Brass

sure seems like the race ended to me..... I shut you down is past tense.

GCD1962

Dan - I remember Ed well. I was Dick Moroso's partner in the car back then. Is Ed still around? Jenkins was not part of Stahl/Moroso. It was Jere Stahl, Dick Moroso, Ed Hedrick and Bob Duffy of Duffy's Performance in Red Bank, NJ. Bob lasted about one week and said "I'm outta here". Dick held on as long as he could and packed it up one night and moved back to Greenwich to open Moroso Performance. Besides being a good friend I was also the first employee of Moroso Performace. Dick's partners in Moroso Performance were Paul Campbell (an old friend) and Vinnie Tarantola of Vitar Trans in Ridgewood, Queens, NY. Vinny was a C/GS recordholder along with friends (his place was next door) to Jack Merkel B/GS & A/GS record holder and Eddie Sanzo who I think at one point was also an A/GS record holder. Nothing like the old times !

George

Dan Hampton

Yup. Ed is still alive and kicking. He is bracket racing a Nova, I believe, in Pennsylvania these days. We talk occasionally and it is always a lot of fun to listen to his stories. I did a piece on the DragonSnakes a few years ago and that is when I got to know him. He took over the Costilow/Larson Cobra from Bruce Larson when Bruce had set some National records and beat the Factory Snakes and that really pissed off Shelby. After that beating, Shelby was not too inclined to help out the Larson team in supplying them parts; thus, the sale of the Snake to Ed. Bruce is a great guy and is as quiet and reserved as Ed is outgoing and talkative. He was NHRA Funny Car Champ in '89 and one of his cars is in the Smithsonian. I can give you Ed's email address if you want. Thanks for the clarification on the Moroso group.

mashinter

Hot Rod did a thorough analysis of the 426 and covered the differences from the 413...very few. (They did some bearing and connecting rod upgrades for the 426 because the engines were being run to way over 6500.) According to the article, the 11.0:1 and 13.5:1 engines mainly had piston differences. The 11.0:1 had 0.0035-0.0045 piston-to-wall, and the 13.5:1 had 0.008-0.010 piston-to-wall. Based on the pistons, they considered the 13.5:1 for racing only.

65 vette dude

470 ft. lbs of torque at 3600 rpm on bias ply on a 3260 lb car, and a 4:11 gear,I still like the vette,especially if it had slicks like the song said. The vette would of probably had a big lead, before the Mopar ever hooked up.

Jim Dillon

Mashinter, there were some differences in the connecting rods but if Hot Rod did not pick up on the differences between the heads then I believe they screwed up (can't guarantee that at all cost). I started with a 383 in my 64 (it was a drag car I bought from my cousin who blew it up at Englishtown). It had some work done to the heads which was a restrictive part of the 383. I looked into the 413 heads and the 426 heads (and intakes etc) at the time and unless the Mopar guys that were counseling me were complete idiots, which I do not believe, then there were differences. I was racing some Chevys at the time and the Chrysler guys wanted to show me the ills of my ways with the bowties. I have also read since then that there were differences and the 426 heads were a better ticket than the 413 heads. In any event I got a line from a crazy hillbilly on the 426 for $600 and bought it instead. It ran great but was tired and did not last long. Tried a more improved 383 for a short while until I gave up in disgust and bought a Z28 and went racing with it and never looked back.

After the 413s and 426 wedges experiments with the heads the later 383s and I suppose some 361s raced benefited from better flow characteristics. The sad thing about the 383 is that I remember my shifts were around 5200 and with the 426 I was able to have fun up to around 6300. You are leaving a bit of power on the table I believe when you have to shift your air pump down around 5000.

I may have to do a little research to see if my memory is worth a damn, but I believe there were differences in the heads as well which can make a big difference. If the 413 was so superb why only one year? Chrysler played around with these engines quite a bit even though the hemi was in the works as well and every year brought a couple more improvements.-Jim

MikeM

The 13.5-1 engines also had no valve seals. Don't know about the 11-1 engines. The owners manual supplement said 300 miles/quart of oil was normal usage for a new engine. They used that much too.

Jim Dillon

Mashinter, if the crew at HotRod did a thorough analysis and left out that there except for the pop up piston size or con rod length and strength and did not mention the difference in cylinder heads between the 413 and 426 then maybe they did not do their homework as well as they think they did.

In Larry Davis book on Super Stocks (a pretty decent book that appears to be well researched and well written) he writes at p62, "The 426 also had redesigned cylinder heads with enlarged valves and smoothed ports on both the intake and exhaust side. Valve size were 2.08 for the intake and 1.88 on the exhausts. The combustion chambers retained the basic design of the improved 413 heads used in 62." He then goes on to discuss the pistons and new camshafts and the fully adjustable rocker arms (which I also found to be a good feature) This dealt with the Stage 1 engine. He goes on to discuss there the flow was improved on the Stage 2 cars. As you know if you played with these cars, the stock heads seemed to be a restriction so any 'Improved" headwork made these cars come alive and my personal belief is that this is a important point, much too important to dismiss as a "few".-Jim

mashinter

Jim:

The only upgrade mentioned in the article is improved valve stem seals for '63. Chrysler found a seal that would fit inside the inner spring, and used that in 1963. The 413 could use a quart in 50 miles during break-in, but Hot Rod's 426 got 300 miles during break-in! You could look at that as a 500% improvement...

The article is by Ray Brock, who was very detailed in technical stuff, but maybe there were differences in the 426 head that his Chrysler source didn't cover. Hot Rod didn't tear down the engine, and have no pictures of the innards. Dunno.

The Max. Wedge Mopars were amazing. I know a couple lucky guys who had one...but I never got a ride. I kept that Jan. '63 Hot Rod as a reminder of what I missed.

Bill

ps374

I found one article were Moter trend tested a 62 Dodge equipped with a 413 in a Dart. Best times were 14.4. Can any of you 63 FI owners match that time ?

Donny Brass

yes

2005 PURE STOCK MUSCLE CAR DRAG RACE RESULTS
63 Chevrolet Corvette Fuelie 327/360 4M 3.70 gears 14.074 102.38 mph 3400lbs

rayvaflav

This Beach Boys song is purely fiction, plenty of artistic and musical leeway given, after all, ultimately in a Beach Boys song, the words gotta' wind up rhyming !

Now if you're looking for a really fact based racing comparison look at Motor Trend's 1964 Ferrari GTO/Pontiac GTO matchup. Remember that one ?

Ray