webhead

I have a 1964 327/365 in very good condition with a correct (not numbers matching) engine that needs to be rebuilt. I'm thinking of dropping in a ZZ4 355HP crate motor, and then taking my time over the next several years to have the correct engine properly rebuilt. I think this makes sense, because I can take the time necessary to have the engine done right, and then sell the ZZ4. Overall, I think I'll end up with a better car at not much more cost, and I'll get to drive the vette while the engine is being rebuilt. :)

Does this sound like a good plan?
Is the ZZ4 355HP crate engine the closest motor to a 327/365?
Is the ZZ4 interchangeable with other 1964 engine components (e.g. carb, exhaust, transmission, etc)?

For those interested:

VIN: 40867S106572 (Delivered December, 1963).
Block: 4114882F0324RT (March 24, 1964).
Heads: 64 3782461 C194 (March 19, 1964).

BobG

webhead...the ZZ4 is a nice motor, although if you are going to do a crate motor, why not go for the ZZ385, and stick a hot cam in it...duplicates the output of the ZZ435 of a couple years ago. Anyway, there are some differences between the engines.

first, the ZZ's come with a one piece main seal versus the two piece that you have now. So, you'll need a new flywheel (assuming you have a 4 spd...about $175 or so). Also the oil pans are different. I have no idea if the one that comes with the motor fits, or if you have to buy a different one, but the one on your current motor probably won't work. The heads are also different. On the ZZ4, they are centerbolt, but it is easy to buy an adaptor that allows you to bolt on the original valve covers. The intake manifold will fit, (but one comes with the motor). on the 385 version the fast burn heads have the Vortec bolt pattern, so your original intake manifold won't work as well as a specific Vortec manifold. As far as I know, both heads come with later model accessory mount holes..not sure about adapting the early brackets, but I'd figure they will probably work. I'm sure your current carb will work, but will it be optimum sized for the motor? The exhaust ports are raised a bit, but your exhaust will most likely fit (haven't been there before!), may take some creative porting on the manifolds, may not...that I don't know..:)

Now, I'm definitely a hp junkie, and I used the ZZ4 in my 67 Camaro restoration. It's a nice motor and all, but if I had to do it all over again, I think I'd probably get a lot more bang for the buck by following this strategy, especially since you apparently don't care if it's totally original: Buy one of the $1400 longblock crate motors (most advertise as 250hp), buy a set of Vortec heads (about $400 + $100 for possible machining/springs), intake manifold of your choice (about $125), and a comp cam's XE268 cam. And because this motor is a 2 piece main seal, everything else should bolt up/be reuseable. According to CHP or one of those mags, you should be in the same power range as a ZZ4, and only spend about $2K for the whole thing...versus $3500-$4500 for the other crate motors...That would give you quite a start $$wise twords the rebuild of what you have...:) I used the 250 hp crate motor in my daughters 68 camaro, stock of course! It works fine, and drives just fine for her. Might be a little underpowered if you're used to a 365 hp motor.

Just my $.02!! Good luck, and keep the forum updated on your project.

Bob

kellsdad

Try this thread: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=226890

Bluestripe67

Webhead Your going to have to put some amount of money out whichever why you go. Time is worth money! So far significantly more negatives have been described for the ZZ approach then positive. Reselling a used HP motor may not be so easy. Afterall, your not buying one now, are you? Why is time seem to be critical? The least amount of time and effort will be spent on searching for a competent machine shop, i.e. clean, organized, use of digital equipment, reputation, to build your engine. The shop can tweek the motor, such as putting in a good hydrulic cam instead of the solids, unless you want to adjust them for fun. When it's done slip it back in and enjoy. During the time the motor is in the shop you can clean and refurbish whats necessary in the engine bay and/or related things. My thoughts, hope this helps. Keep posting!

....just drive 'em! Dennis, TOY-1

webhead

Sounds like a rebuild of the correct engine is the way to go (since the ZZ4 is not as clean a swap as I thought), AND I need time to clean and refurbish the engine compartment, AND I need to have the Muncie rebuilt (since the synchro between 3rd & 4th is going).

So, you've talked me into rebuilding the engine. :smash:

Now, my first concern is that the pistons have .060 stamped on the top. Does this mean the bores are max'ed out and I need sleeves? Can I get sleeves? Are they expensive? :confused:

Secondly, what are the improvements I should make such as hardened valves and seats, roller rockers, etc. Should I stick with solid lifters or go with hydraulic? Is there a preferred type of cam? etc. :yesnod:

I want to do this right, but I need to educate myself before I can trust the machinist who spends my money.

This is a driver, so my goal is to balance practicality with originality and keep the car the best of both worlds. :cool:

Bluestripe67

Well I'm sure we can count on some other guys to add good experience to this for you. Someone else needs to back me up on this, but .060 sounds like you motor has been bored before, this may cause a serious bump in the road, lets see what other say. Here is mine.... Not stock in appearence or guts. Rebuilt mine 16 years ago with all the good machine work, bored, and honed and line bored with a torque plate, magnafluxed all parts, in particular rods and chrank. Most shops naturally put hardened valve seats in now, but ask and make sure. Forged pistons, (now use the new hypertunetic) 327/350 cam, roller tip rockers, matched intake/exhaust ports, high volumn oil pump, Fuel Injection oil pan (five quart) you may already have this. Edelbrock Performer,(you should have a aluminum intake now) and carb all fired with a Jacobs ignition and Mallory HEI conversion. You can hide the Mallory under your dist. cap and no one will know. Exhaust is you choice, headers or cast iron, underbody or side. A hydrulic cam is maintainence free and many are out there. I think your orig. engine was the predicesor to the 327/350 so the "151" cam(350HP) would be a natural. This has proven to be completely trouble free for me for 74K miles. Hope this helps.

....just drive 'em! Dennis, TOY-1

Maximillian

It's going to cost you the same either way. A good small block puting out a gross of 350-385 is going to cost around $4000. Then you'll have to add another $750 to have someone install it.

A good rebuild will go about $4500 - $5000

If you rebuild, you will very likely need to sleeve all cylinders. The .060 on the top of the current pistons DOES mean that they are .060 larger than stock. You can get custom pistons, assuming your block is tested and has adequate thickness; however, I'd definately just sleeve them. There's nothing wrong with that.

If I were rebuilding my 327, and I wasn't concerned about keeping it perfectly stock looking, I would have the following done:

1) hypereutectic pistons (.060) in sleeved cylinders
2) Full roller cam (you'll need to buy a kit, including rods, springs, thrust bearing, lifters, from Comp or Crane)...provide this to your engine builder. I'd go with something with about 226-234 degrees of duration at .050. You don't need to get too crazy with duration on a roller cam as the benefit is from how aggressive you can get with ramp rate. If you do decide to bebuild your 327, DO spend the extra $300-$500 on the roller cam. It makes a huge difference not only because of the reduced frictional drag, but from the rates at which you can "snap" the valves open and shut.
3) Heads: either have your iron heads ported to some degree (depending on what you'd like to spend) and cut for larger valves; or, you can opt to buy some good aluminum heads with 190-200 cc runners
4) Get an aluminum intake manifold....double plane or else the car won't run well under 3000 RPM.
5) If I were you, and not at all concerned about originality, I'd grab a 600cfm BG Demon carb. They're great.
6) Additionally, if I didn't have A/C (but I do), I'd definately bolt on some headers.

With that setup, I'd expect you to have a 327 churning out at least 400 gross horsepower. It would also sound stunning with a high lifting roller cam and headers!