VIN 194377S103954 "Documented" 67/435hp Possible FAKE
04-26-2010, 05:41 PM
#21
Safety Car
Al has a database of tens of thousands of Corvette engine pad stamping pictures. He can compare a photo of a pad with that of virtually any day of Corvette production for whatever block was being manufactured. He can tell when the broach machines were re-tooled and how they wore over time.
These data will ultimately be passed to someone and these broach machining lines - which are IMPOSSIBLE TO DUPLICATE - become the fingerprints of every "original" engine out there. 63 years or 163 years, the result will be the same - you CAN tell the original from the restamped. This IS important for those who demand originality.
As for the NCRS, yes you are right. They judge to a standard that if it looks correct - then you get full credit. NCRS awards are in no way "documentation" for a car - just a nice way to say that it looks like it came from the factory.
These data will ultimately be passed to someone and these broach machining lines - which are IMPOSSIBLE TO DUPLICATE - become the fingerprints of every "original" engine out there. 63 years or 163 years, the result will be the same - you CAN tell the original from the restamped. This IS important for those who demand originality.
As for the NCRS, yes you are right. They judge to a standard that if it looks correct - then you get full credit. NCRS awards are in no way "documentation" for a car - just a nice way to say that it looks like it came from the factory.
This is why I have always put more value on the car having its original stamp pad vs. paperwork. It is nice to have both however
04-26-2010, 06:13 PM
#22
Le Mans Master
...
These data will ultimately be passed to someone and these broach machining lines - which are IMPOSSIBLE TO DUPLICATE - become the fingerprints of every "original" engine out there. 63 years or 163 years, the result will be the same - you CAN tell the original from the restamped. This IS important for those who demand originality.
...
These data will ultimately be passed to someone and these broach machining lines - which are IMPOSSIBLE TO DUPLICATE - become the fingerprints of every "original" engine out there. 63 years or 163 years, the result will be the same - you CAN tell the original from the restamped. This IS important for those who demand originality.
...
Actually, no. This is a common misconception. You can tell a block that has been DECKED and then stamped.
If you start with an unstamped block of the right date, you will not be able to tell it from an original, if the stamping was done well.
The real vs. unreal issue is based on broach marks. However, if you have a block that has the correct broach marks (OTC, passenger car without VINs, truck, etc.), then you cannot tell.
04-26-2010, 07:54 PM
#23
Actually, no. This is a common misconception. You can tell a block that has been DECKED and then stamped.
If you start with an unstamped block of the right date, you will not be able to tell it from an original, if the stamping was done well.
The real vs. unreal issue is based on broach marks. However, if you have a block that has the correct broach marks (OTC, passenger car without VINs, truck, etc.), then you cannot tell.
If you start with an unstamped block of the right date, you will not be able to tell it from an original, if the stamping was done well.
The real vs. unreal issue is based on broach marks. However, if you have a block that has the correct broach marks (OTC, passenger car without VINs, truck, etc.), then you cannot tell.
1. Unstamped blocks are extremely rare to begin with. I would bet that the number out there can be counted on two hands. The vast majority of blocks used by restampers are period blocks that were decked.
2. The owner of the block would then need to get a hold of the Grenning database and find the vehicles date appropriate for his block.
3. Then he needs to find a vehicle that matches that date.
That's a lot of happenstance. I would think the cost to do such a creation would be more expensive than trying to find an original vehicle.
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scotty t (12-15-2021)
04-26-2010, 10:45 PM
#26
" I am aware as I am a member "
Sounds like a nice place to buy a cheap suit. The Gurus of finance are at it again. My toy is better than your toy. Who actually gives a rip if someone wants to fake a high hp identity. Only the greedy looking to turn a buck will lose sleep.
My heart goes out to the fools with too much money and not enough information to arm themselves against false truths.
I'm for love, happiness, and driving a Corvette during our short summers. You Trump types hold your ego high in the air and brag to your hearts content.
Yes there are phoney documented corvettes, now and always will be. I have been very fortunate to meet and speak with owners that appreciate classic machinery. When the bragging / arrogant personality takes over the conversation I quickly move on. Lifes too short to be this transparent.
Sounds like a nice place to buy a cheap suit. The Gurus of finance are at it again. My toy is better than your toy. Who actually gives a rip if someone wants to fake a high hp identity. Only the greedy looking to turn a buck will lose sleep.
My heart goes out to the fools with too much money and not enough information to arm themselves against false truths.
I'm for love, happiness, and driving a Corvette during our short summers. You Trump types hold your ego high in the air and brag to your hearts content.
Yes there are phoney documented corvettes, now and always will be. I have been very fortunate to meet and speak with owners that appreciate classic machinery. When the bragging / arrogant personality takes over the conversation I quickly move on. Lifes too short to be this transparent.
04-26-2010, 11:02 PM
#27
Le Mans Master
Boy, talk about a list of unlikely happenstances. Consider...
1. Unstamped blocks are extremely rare to begin with. I would bet that the number out there can be counted on two hands. The vast majority of blocks used by restampers are period blocks that were decked.
2. The owner of the block would then need to get a hold of the Grenning database and find the vehicles date appropriate for his block.
3. Then he needs to find a vehicle that matches that date.
That's a lot of happenstance. I would think the cost to do such a creation would be more expensive than trying to find an original vehicle.
1. Unstamped blocks are extremely rare to begin with. I would bet that the number out there can be counted on two hands. The vast majority of blocks used by restampers are period blocks that were decked.
2. The owner of the block would then need to get a hold of the Grenning database and find the vehicles date appropriate for his block.
3. Then he needs to find a vehicle that matches that date.
That's a lot of happenstance. I would think the cost to do such a creation would be more expensive than trying to find an original vehicle.
Yes, the vast number are decked blocks but they get caught. But those are the little guys who are restoring, not the guys dropping $50,000 restoration on a $150,000 car.
I ran across a '63 block unstamped completely a couple of years ago that the guy wanted $3000 for the bare block. Now if you were building an all original (???) fuellie and you needed the original engine, what is $3000 in the price of a car that would go over $80,000? You would have a hard time justifying it for your $35,000 convertible you are building yourself and planning on never selling.
I have an unstamped 454 sitting in my garage. I used to have a couple of -R suffix blocks with no VIN and I still have an -S block. The -S blocks used to be easy to find, lots of automatic '63 and '64 Chevies dumping them for 350s and 383s.
A database of dates is not only available, but readily found. Noland Adams made one years ago for midyears. While it isn't as complete, it is close enough to have your dates in where they need to be. And really, it isn't that hard to go to a few shows, find cars with a VIN in your area, check dates to see where you need to be, and you are in.
The cars you really have to look over closely are not the ones that are fresh, as they are often dead giveaways, but the ones that were done 20 years ago and now have aged and have their own patina to them such you think they are old and real when they are just old.
And you think it is hard to find a car in the date range appropriate to your engine? You might not find it in this week or month, but a year or so will no doubt bring you want you seek.
04-26-2010, 11:24 PM
#28
Drifting
What I'd REALLY like to know is: how liable is this dealer for passing along a fake? If you sell an expensive piece of art that turns out to be fake then the gallery that sold it usually has to eat it. Caveat emptor and all that, but the vehicle is purported to be "documented" and represented as such - isn't it up to the seller to verify this prior to stating such as fact?
You have to figure the people buying these toys are well-heeled enough that they can afford a decent lawyer if they've been scammed.
RMX
You have to figure the people buying these toys are well-heeled enough that they can afford a decent lawyer if they've been scammed.
RMX
Here is a link to the ad, If you look below the pictures it has all the disclaimers...
http://www.ronsusser.com/inventory.htm?id=859
04-27-2010, 09:04 AM
#29
I love the " reasonable effort " part. If I know it is a replica why would I tell you and take less money ? The financial money driven classic flippers are interested in making the almighty dollar... not preserving the past. If you read the forum closely you will see names that come up on a regular basis with these special optioned cars. I wouldn't be skeptical but one can make up their own mind.
04-27-2010, 09:40 AM
#30
Drifting
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" I am aware as I am a member "
Sounds like a nice place to buy a cheap suit. The Gurus of finance are at it again. My toy is better than your toy. Who actually gives a rip if someone wants to fake a high hp identity. Only the greedy looking to turn a buck will lose sleep.
My heart goes out to the fools with too much money and not enough information to arm themselves against false truths.
I'm for love, happiness, and driving a Corvette during our short summers. You Trump types hold your ego high in the air and brag to your hearts content.
Yes there are phoney documented corvettes, now and always will be. I have been very fortunate to meet and speak with owners that appreciate classic machinery. When the bragging / arrogant personality takes over the conversation I quickly move on. Lifes too short to be this transparent.
Sounds like a nice place to buy a cheap suit. The Gurus of finance are at it again. My toy is better than your toy. Who actually gives a rip if someone wants to fake a high hp identity. Only the greedy looking to turn a buck will lose sleep.
My heart goes out to the fools with too much money and not enough information to arm themselves against false truths.
I'm for love, happiness, and driving a Corvette during our short summers. You Trump types hold your ego high in the air and brag to your hearts content.
Yes there are phoney documented corvettes, now and always will be. I have been very fortunate to meet and speak with owners that appreciate classic machinery. When the bragging / arrogant personality takes over the conversation I quickly move on. Lifes too short to be this transparent.
Dear Jrs,
Thanks for your opinion. I would suggest that if you feel compelled to make disparaging personal attacks that you take it to PM. No one wants to be a party to that crap.
04-27-2010, 11:49 AM
#32
Drifting
One more thing, pet peeve
...if any poster on this forum has the fortitude to disparage, and the fortitude to disparage disparaging, then the poster(s) should have the fortitude to completely fill out their public profile and not hide behind anonymity.
...if any poster on this forum has the fortitude to disparage, and the fortitude to disparage disparaging, then the poster(s) should have the fortitude to completely fill out their public profile and not hide behind anonymity.
Every time this subject comes up, the silly season begins.
04-27-2010, 07:46 PM
#34
Sorry if I stepped on your ego. Just my 2 cents. I will leave now and let you financial wizzards brag it out. You live in a very small world. People with financial adequacy rarely boast or belittle us common folks with your big words. Carry on " real owners ".
04-27-2010, 08:18 PM
#35
Melting Slicks
all about jrs? Call off the dogs 
04-28-2010, 02:16 AM
#37
Race Director
If it left GM as a service part, it would have something stamped on the pad, as the '68 and later CE blocks do, wouldn't it?
Doug
04-28-2010, 03:40 AM
#38
Melting Slicks
Far to much emphases on an original block. There are a million parts to a car why so much scrutiny over a correct stamp pad. There are castings on the block and cast dates that should be close. If the castings are close enough in dates I'm happy. The value of a car should be in it's restoration as it stands. If it has been awarded a Top Flight it's a great Corvette with or without the scrutiny of the stamp pad....
Stewy
Stewy
04-28-2010, 03:48 AM
#39
Melting Slicks
Doug I'm not sure but it could be a serviceable part. If the engine threw a rod (never in a Chev) The spare parts counter would supply a correct block with no stamp. The service dept would stamp the correct numbers on the engine when re installed. But I could be barking up the wrong tree. It's just a wild guess...Stewy
04-28-2010, 03:55 PM
#40
Team Owner
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Complete (intake-to-pan) production engine assemblies were always available from Service (only during the time they were still in production at the engine plants), and they had the usual engine plant production stampings on the pad.