VIN 194377S103954 "Documented" 67/435hp Possible FAKE
05-14-2010, 03:08 PM
#41
Heel & Toe
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The car in question is not a possible fake. It is a fake. I owned it from 1978 to 1985 and it was a matching number 427 400 air, JC engine code. I bought it from Lloyd Cotton of Folsom LA for $5000.00. When I restored the interior I found a bill of sale from a Chevy dealer where the car was purchased by Mr. Cotton for $1200.00. I sold it and the second owner after me removed the engine and replaced it with another 427. I lost track after that. Last month found the old invoice with the serial number and did a Google search and there it was. " Fully documented 427/435." Tank sticker, window sticker and protecto plate. On one hand I was glad to see the car is still around and someone did a complete restoration but that it was all put together with forged documenation has to effect the value of all of these cars.
I am sure it will turn up again as the broker who advertised it said it sold in December to someone in New Jersey and now he said it is in California. I just think that the current owner should know the facts.
http://www.ronsusser.com/inventory.htm?id=859
I am sure it will turn up again as the broker who advertised it said it sold in December to someone in New Jersey and now he said it is in California. I just think that the current owner should know the facts.
http://www.ronsusser.com/inventory.htm?id=859
Last edited by gerard.hansen; 05-14-2010 at 03:15 PM.
05-14-2010, 04:55 PM
#42
Melting Slicks
Given the right materials and skills, anything can be faked well enough to fool experts. There is also the problem with who is defined as an "expert". The real problem for the whole Corvette community will be the number of fakes. One fake car sold to an individual is bad but it also generates fear of buying a fake to people in the market. This fear will suppress the prices. It will benefit us all to be on the lookout for the fakers and call them out and document any fakes found as well as real cars are documented.
05-14-2010, 05:32 PM
#43
Melting Slicks
The car in question is not a possible fake. It is a fake. I owned it from 1978 to 1985 and it was a matching number 427 400 air, JC engine code. I bought it from Lloyd Cotton of Folsom LA for $5000.00. When I restored the interior I found a bill of sale from a Chevy dealer where the car was purchased by Mr. Cotton for $1200.00. I sold it and the second owner after me removed the engine and replaced it with another 427. I lost track after that. Last month found the old invoice with the serial number and did a Google search and there it was. " Fully documented 427/435." Tank sticker, window sticker and protecto plate. On one hand I was glad to see the car is still around and someone did a complete restoration but that it was all put together with forged documenation has to effect the value of all of these cars.
I am sure it will turn up again as the broker who advertised it said it sold in December to someone in New Jersey and now he said it is in California. I just think that the current owner should know the facts.
http://www.ronsusser.com/inventory.htm?id=859
I am sure it will turn up again as the broker who advertised it said it sold in December to someone in New Jersey and now he said it is in California. I just think that the current owner should know the facts.
http://www.ronsusser.com/inventory.htm?id=859
Sorry for stating this again but I'm just amazed that someone would take a tri-carb 400hp air car to forge a 435 out of it
. Sure seems to me a tri-carb air car is worth plenty. Someone took something already kinda special and made a bogey 
05-14-2010, 06:39 PM
#44
Team Owner
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Thanks Gerard for the information as it is quite interesting!
Sorry for stating this again but I'm just amazed that someone would take a tri-carb 400hp air car to forge a 435 out of it. Sure seems to me a tri-carb air car is worth plenty. Someone took something already kinda special and made a bogey
Sorry for stating this again but I'm just amazed that someone would take a tri-carb 400hp air car to forge a 435 out of it
. Sure seems to me a tri-carb air car is worth plenty. Someone took something already kinda special and made a bogey 
05-15-2010, 12:49 PM
#45
Le Mans Master
It is good to have the real information as it makes those peddling fakes have to think twice. Thanks very much for providing it.
Once upon a time, it didn't matter. if you wanted an L88 or a 435 hp and you didn't have one, you built it and enjoyed it. You got to enjoy first hand what these cars were.
It only matters today because people put too much emphasis on pedigree. They were all built in a factory by a bunch of hourly workers feeding their families, not some mystic craftsmen in a hollow oak tree in an enchanted forest.
They aren't royal by birthright, anymore than another, as they are all sibling cars off the same line.
In some ways, I wish they were all fakes, and they would return to cars we simply drive, show, and enjoy.
Maybe after enough "investors" lose $50,000 or $100,000 on fakes, this will go away.
05-15-2010, 01:14 PM
#46
Drifting
I dunno, some cars need to be pedigrees, just wish people would stop trying to rip people off. There is a market for every kind of car and a certain amount of monetary appreciation for each market. Just don't see the need to rip people off.
07-25-2010, 08:04 PM
#48
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http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_de...2&entryRow=287
I think this is it. I am checking with Mecom on the serial number.
I think this is it. I am checking with Mecom on the serial number.
07-25-2010, 08:30 PM
#49
Race Director
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St. Jude Donor '10
Boy, talk about a list of unlikely happenstances. Consider...
1. Unstamped blocks are extremely rare to begin with. I would bet that the number out there can be counted on two hands. The vast majority of blocks used by restampers are period blocks that were decked.
2. The owner of the block would then need to get a hold of the Grenning database and find the vehicles date appropriate for his block.
3. Then he needs to find a vehicle that matches that date.
That's a lot of happenstance. I would think the cost to do such a creation would be more expensive than trying to find an original vehicle.
1. Unstamped blocks are extremely rare to begin with. I would bet that the number out there can be counted on two hands. The vast majority of blocks used by restampers are period blocks that were decked.
2. The owner of the block would then need to get a hold of the Grenning database and find the vehicles date appropriate for his block.
3. Then he needs to find a vehicle that matches that date.
That's a lot of happenstance. I would think the cost to do such a creation would be more expensive than trying to find an original vehicle.
07-25-2010, 10:06 PM
#50
Heel & Toe
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It was a happenstance that I still have an old bill of sale with the serial number and that the seller listed it in the ad for the car. There is no doubt that is my old car and that it was re created as a 435. I wish that they would have kept it an air car. I read some place that there were only about 350 to 400 or so 400 hp a/c cars built.
07-25-2010, 11:30 PM
#51
Le Mans Master
I had a 400hp car about 12 yrs ago.
Personally, I think it's pretty easy to tell an original pad from a re-stamped pad. Even with patina.
It's good to see the fakes uncovered these days.
Personally, I think it's pretty easy to tell an original pad from a re-stamped pad. Even with patina.
It's good to see the fakes uncovered these days.
07-26-2010, 12:07 AM
#52
Melting Slicks
http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_de...2&entryRow=287
I think this is it. I am checking with Mecom on the serial number.
I think this is it. I am checking with Mecom on the serial number.
07-26-2010, 09:59 AM
#53
Le Mans Master
http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_de...2&entryRow=287
I think this is it. I am checking with Mecom on the serial number.
I think this is it. I am checking with Mecom on the serial number.
From the Joe Amato collection
07-26-2010, 10:29 AM
#54
07-26-2010, 11:00 AM
#57
Le Mans Master
07-26-2010, 01:02 PM
#58
Race Director
When Al Grenning does his stamp pad seminar he has each person in attendance view various stamp pads and make notation if it is real or a fake. Afterwards he goes through them again and gives the answer. During the 2 seminars I attended, no one got all of them correct. I think I got about 50% correct both times, so never ask me about a stamp pad.
Rick
Rick
07-26-2010, 01:16 PM
#59
When Al Grenning does his stamp pad seminar he has each person in attendance view various stamp pads and make notation if it is real or a fake. Afterwards he goes through them again and gives the answer. During the 2 seminars I attended, no one got all of them correct. I think I got about 50% correct both times, so never ask me about a stamp pad.
Rick
Rick
07-26-2010, 05:47 PM
#60
Safety Car
http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_de...2&entryRow=287
I think this is it. I am checking with Mecom on the serial number.
I think this is it. I am checking with Mecom on the serial number.