REMIX

Just FYI. The previous owner is now looking for the current owner. Can anyone help him?

No matter, if the provenance is that questionable, it's probably not a bad idea for this thread with the VIN remain to available for any future searches for any future buyers.

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpos...8&postcount=25

RMX

knight37128

So they made a 435hp out of a 400 air coupe.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to start with a 300hp car?

wmf62

hmmm..... has TM experienced an epiphany?

http://tmichaelis.com/archives/147

Bill

bb62

As I noted at the Ferrari site, just have Al Grenning look at the car to see if it is indeed a fake. It's worth the money for the piece of mind.

Mark_Milner

And what else is new?



It has been mentioned on here before, it is easier to counterfeit paper than it is to counterfeit a car, so why does anyone put faith in documentation?

Most of these cars went through a used car lot once in their lives, and back in the '60s and '70s, the reputation of a Corvette was such no salesman ever wanted a potential buyer to be able to talk to a previous owner.

Paperwork was trashed immediately, if any existed.

Yet ever single high dollar car today has it.

wow

You hit the nail on the head Mark...paperwork is worked paper...the days of getting high dollars for a "real, documented" L71 is done...maybe 'cause there are about 2000 or more "real, documented" L71's than Chevy ever produced...

SBR

1000% it is way easier to produce fake paperwork than it is to fake a real car. Real paperwork is nice but is only one factor in determining if a car is what it is supposed to be. I like knowing the full history of every car I own, seeing pictures of it when new and if possible talking with them. I have been very lucky in that I have been able to talk with the original owners of most of the cars that I have owned.

bb62

That is complete nonsense. The NCRS iitself hasn't seen anywhere near that number of 67s for judging - never mind the L71 variety.

As for real cars - they will always be worth more than the restamps and fakes - paperwork or no paper work. SBR is right that the potential purchaser needs to do his homework to fully understand where the car came from. But as Al Grenning has definitively shown - the real original engined cars CAN be identified. And the process is no less accurate than the forensic and ballistics examination of the surface of a spent bullet. Those cars will continue to demand a premium.

Patrick67

Hmmm, I wonder what that 02L89AA means.

a560156

Unless you are the current owner, he cannot help you. Been there, done that!!!

bb62

Anybody interested in purchasing a car can pay the fee that the owner can use to confirm the engine in his car. No owner/seller would ever back down from an offer like this - unless he has something to hide.

REMIX

Well, these cars are only 43 years old...what happens when they're 53 years old? 63 years old? What happens when guys like Al Grenning retire? How many of these people with that level of knowledge are going to be left eventually? The original owners are going to die off and most people didn't take photos of block stamps in 1967. Lots of folks immediately threw their window stickers and related paperwork away.

Seems like the only "safe" way to buy a car like this is to find a seller with a documented chain of ownership (increasingly more difficult) or buy something that clearly states it's not # matching.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't NCRS merely judge whether or not the car is "correct" but not that it's authentic?

RMX

Mike Ward

Well, since you asked to be corrected if you're wrong, you're right. The word 'authentic' is not on the radar. It's a shame that so many owners/buyers/sellers/bashers gloss over this fact, but.......

bb62

Al has a database of tens of thousands of Corvette engine pad stamping pictures. He can compare a photo of a pad with that of virtually any day of Corvette production for whatever block was being manufactured. He can tell when the broach machines were re-tooled and how they wore over time.

These data will ultimately be passed to someone and these broach machining lines - which are IMPOSSIBLE TO DUPLICATE - become the fingerprints of every "original" engine out there. 63 years or 163 years, the result will be the same - you CAN tell the original from the restamped. This IS important for those who demand originality.

As for the NCRS, yes you are right. They judge to a standard that if it looks correct - then you get full credit. NCRS awards are in no way "documentation" for a car - just a nice way to say that it looks like it came from the factory.

Lee H

A fake 67 435HP, I'm shocked!!

a560156

A seller with something to hide? Now that's a first.

bb62

The general Corvette community, especially for those with 67 435 cars, is fairly small. If an owner doesn't want to have his car verified (and at the expense of the potential purchaser to boot), then it is likely that people will know about it and the car will be devalued for that alone. The real cars have nothing to hide - that is why they are more expensive.

JohnZ

Take your pick - both stickers are fake.

1-2-b-67L89

No big surprise on the issue of being a fake since it happens too much along with other high $ muscle automobiles but what seems baffling as knight37128 asked, why take a 400 tri-carb air car to make a switch. Seems like that cars original make up would place it in very high # country.

REMIX

What I'd REALLY like to know is: how liable is this dealer for passing along a fake? If you sell an expensive piece of art that turns out to be fake then the gallery that sold it usually has to eat it. Caveat emptor and all that, but the vehicle is purported to be "documented" and represented as such - isn't it up to the seller to verify this prior to stating such as fact?

You have to figure the people buying these toys are well-heeled enough that they can afford a decent lawyer if they've been scammed.

RMX