Dr L-88

How does the Muncie M-22 rock-crusher trans compare to the Borg Warner Super T-10 Power Brute transmission (the ones with a nodular iron case and high nickel gears that were offered as over the counter replacements in the 70's and 80's?? Strength, durability, ease of installation, is it a direct replacement for the Muncies?

SledgeHammer 2.0

Rock Crusher at best is a 38 year old transmission. Don't know what you plan on doing with it but the T-10 will be stronger. It will not be a direct bolt in to the best of my knowledge. The stock t-10's had different shifters and linkage, but you could probably use the same shifter but get a new mounting plate and linkage for the t-10. The t-10 IIRR was a slight bit longer than the Muncie, but it was only by 1/4 inch or so.
Same bellhousing, same 26 spline clutch. same rear yoke.

66jack

I have a t-10 i bought from a speed shop some 30 years ago and am just now using it, "had it in the car for 500 miles then i blew the engine and just stored it". I do not know exactly which BW i have but the tag says t-10 on it, the only thing i had problems with is the levers for the linkage were clocked differently than the muncie. i used the same plate to attach the stock shifter as would be used for the mucie. my yoke fit the splines, and driveline fit also.

jack

jack

69ttop502

I would say that the new Autogear Muncie is the strongest synchronized transmission you could put in your car. Possibly the biggest issue of the old Muncie's was the side loading of the gears on the case. The M-22 was better in this regard because of the straighter cut gears, but the case was the weak link. The new Muncie's are living behind some very healthy cars. I know of two in 800hp cars that are street/strip and are holding up fine.


Bill

Dan Hampton

The Super T is the preferred transmission for guys who race vintage sports racers (Echidnas, BoCars, Devins) They work well in the lighter (2,000 lb) cars with 450+ h.p. Strength is not as critical as gear choices, given the reduced weight of these cars This is not to say that they aren't strong but their gear helix is not like that which is found with the stout M-22. I have friends who have thrashed Super Ts around all the road circuits in the USA for a decade or so and have never so much as opened up their trans. A very good transmission and a considerable head and shoulders improvement over the old BW T-10. Parts are readily available, too, and very reasonably priced.

MiguelsC2

Back in the early 80s. I ran a very hot 427 tri-power with a super T-10 behind it. Never had any issues.
It was in a '79 Z-28. It came from the factory with a super T-10, 3.73 rear end and a doggy 185hp 350. Just screamed for a transplant. Fit under the stock hood.

Ps. Some of the ST-10s had stump puller first gears!

midyearvette

the main case of the super t-10 is stronger than the muncie...there are also a few more gear ratios available...the hurst handle is the same but it takes a different rod kit and the one for the vette has a special dog leg lever for reverse...they both take the big seal yoke and the super t-10 is 1" longer so the drive shaft must be cut for most c2's....the disc is fine spline.....

vetrod62

Several years ago I researched the Super T10 transmissions when I decided to remove my TKO-600 for a faster shifting transmission. (.300 seconds faster) I already had a M22W transmission on the bench and always heard the ST-10s were stronger. What I learned was:

(Some of the posts above refer the GM ST-10s and do not apply to your question.) The Cast Iron units were sold across the counters of speed shops. The GM units were all Alum. cased. The Cast iron transmissions came as syncro or Pro shifted units.

The syncro transmissions were like the normal 4 speed transmissions. The pro shifted transmissions had no syncros and had every 2 of 3 teeth missing on the slider and gears. Parts for the pro shifted(crash box) transmissions are hard to come by. The GM transmissions had 4 first gear ratios,
2.43
2.64
2.88
3.42
The ST-10 is 3/4" longer

The input and out put shafts can have different splines.

The side covers are a weak link. The shift lever assemblies break. This happened on the only two cars racing in our series.

The weak spot of the Muncie is the case. It can distort with enough power, and break the gears. But the M-22 has better gear Helix angles than the ST-10 and will distort the case less. The new Auto gear super case M-22s are the best you can get. I have an Auto gear M-22-W gears installed into a M21 case in my black car and no one runs their car harder than I do with a conventional 4 speed than I do.

In my opinion, the Muncie is stronger and that is what I finally chose

Which is better is a 50/50 argument.

redvetracr

count the rings on the input shaft

MiguelsC2

Thanks. Excellent info. In your opinion, how do the GM factory installed units measure up?

I didn't break mine. But I am curious if they are a desirable unit to persue?

vetrod62

The ST-10s are OK, I would not rate them better or worse than a Muncie, except for the the shift lever assemblies. The 57-63 units are really weak. (T-10s), I broke many of them back in the day.

bjm

ST-10 are fine for small blocks but we have never run anything in our 700hp+ BB vintage race Corvettes other than M-22s and would not as we have had very few issues them. My Father is still running one of the original M-22s that he used in his race car during the 70's (rebuilt of course) We have a ST-10 in our small block 57 Corvette race car and have had few issues but it does not have to manage as much hp.

Dr L-88

Thanks Jim, that's all very good information. How much should I expect to pay for the Autogear M-22W?

BTW, you have two beautiful (and fast) cars.

Thanks,
Rex

vetrod62

Thanks for the compliments. PM sent

sub006

The 4-speed race between BW and Muncie was like the 20th century arms race between the USA and USSR.

After the mid-'30s LaSalle trannies were almost all gone, the T-10 was introduced as the first modern 4-speed in the '57 'Vette. In the '60s they were installed behind Chevy 409s, Ford 406/427s and Mopar Hemis for NHRA, NASCAR and hot street duty.

The 1964 Muncie was GM's in-house answer, which BW later aswered with the Super T-10.

Driven moderately, all will give good service. But this is the Corvette Forum, where many will indulge max effort by their machines on a regular basis.

c6silver

There were other gear ratio choices for BW Super T 10s than the ones listed above. There was a very M21/M22 like 2.23, 1.77, 1.35, 1.00 made of 9310 alloy which came installed in a 904 nodular iron case with the cast iron mid plate, this would be the strongest Super T10 available. I wonder what would happen if you cryo'd or vibrationally stress relieved and then REM polished the internal parts and blueprinted their installation ? I'll bet it would be a hell of a trans. This would have been a Power Brute over the counter aftermarket tranny.

DrainSurgeon77

Rex, The Power Brute ST-10's with 8620 gears were not quite as strong as Muncie M-20&21's, with the 9310 gears their slightly stronger, but still not as strong as an M-22

Power Brute ST-10's could be bought with 10 spline input/27 spline out put, or 26 spline input/32 spline out put. The 10/27 Power Brute is the same length as the 1970 and older Muncie. The 26/32 is the same length as a 1971 and later Muncie. (Later Muncie is 3/4" longer than early.)

The 10/27 Power Brute has the flats on the shift shafts indexed on a 45 degree angle when in the neutral position like an early T-10.

The 26/32 Power Brute has vertical studded shift shafts like a 1968 and earlier Muncie.

Most Power Brute ST-10's didn't come with 9310 nickel gears and none of the Power Brutes ST-10's came with iron mid-plates.

I build a lot of ST-10's for vintage road race cars. I don't have any trouble with the small block sports racers. (Echidnas, Bocars, Devins). But with the big block group 6 Corvette they don't last too long, even after you cryo, rem, and friction coat the gears, shafts and synchro assembly's.

The OEM ST-10 aluminum main case is the weak link on the ST-10, the 904 ST-10 iron case is about equal with the 1" Muncie case. But the Muncie case can be made stronger. As everyone knows the Muncie case has a tendency to beat the cluster pin down in the case. The fix for this is re-bushing the pin holes in the main case. The guy that bushes cases for me has noticed when he measures the cases that a lot of the cases started life with the bores lower that spec, out of parallel with the main shaft up and down and right to left. So in the process of re-bushing the case and putting the pins back in parallel the trans is a lot stronger, and when the pin is moved up .005" closer to the main shaft my customers with the 502's and 540's don't have any problems.

Hope this helps... Crash

c6silver

There is also the S&K speed high nickle case for the T10 which is even stronger than the 904 nodular iron case. They make a re-pro mid plate as well I believe.

Crash, I have a question for you...I have a Richmond Gear 4+1 5 speed case that both the main and counter shafts have "spun" in...can this be repaired ? I would love to have a 4+1 in my Vette. Thanks !