Original or not
05-19-2011, 03:21 PM
#101
Everyone has their own definition of original. The conversation escalates depending on the individuals reference (ride), in other words: If you have a 90% original Corvette, you will try to keep it that way because your car is one of very few that is considered original, the elite. Most owners have Corvettes ranging from 50 to 70% original and there is no way they can recover the original parts to make it original. This represents the majority and you will find more venting, bashing, and bogus number matching stories you have ever heard or made up in your life. We want to be original and are mad because they/we will never be in that privileged category. Every time someone vents about this subject escalates the elite & privileged to smile.
Remember if “no one” can tell the difference, then it is original.....
Just my two cents
rustylugnuts
Remember if “no one” can tell the difference, then it is original.....
Just my two cents
rustylugnuts
05-19-2011, 04:52 PM
#102
Safety Car
You are absolutely correct! There are still many out there who still equate Top Flight, or Bloomington Gold with "original".
Most of us that have built cars would more correctly refer to such a car as "correct" rather than "original". I have never represented any car I have ever owned as original, because I know that no 40+ year old car is truly original. Calling a car "all original" IMHO, is no better than the overused description "numbers matching".
That being said, any part that is indistinguishable from known original part would be judged as correct and thus would score the same as original. Does not mean it is is original, only that it could not be distinguished from a known original configuration.
As our knowledge increases in judging (mostly from Bowtie cars) we add subtle nuances to our knowledge of certain configurations that allows us to detect incorrect configurations in parts and assemblies that we might not have had in the past. The sidepipes are a perfect example. 10 years ago a lot of sidepipe conversions would have slipped past most flight judging because a lot of judges did not know some of the subtle little things to look for. As a consequence, the level of detail in the conversion had to go up to avoid being detected. This is how the flight judging game is played, the attention to detail involved in restoration is constantly increasing as the ability to detect these subtle items increases.
Regards, John McGraw
05-19-2011, 07:21 PM
#103
Safety Car
Thread Starter
No, this is one of the few times you will ever hear me agree with Rustylugnuts.!
That is what all us yearn for and manufacturers strive for, a repro part that is indistinguishable from the original. We strive for that because this is how a car is judged at Flight judging. If a part appears real, than it is judged as if it were real. If "no one" can tell the difference, then how could you know whether it is the real deal or not? If you were buying a priceless antique or painting and there was nobody on earth that could tell you whether it was a fake, then you would have to assume it was real, no?
Y'all need to quit kidding yourselves, this why we make replacement hoses with correct logos stamped into them , absolutely correct gas caps, as well as hundreds of other parts which are only built to fool a judge on the judging field. this does not make them perform any better, but only to appear as if they were original parts. This is how the game is played and these are the rules. If you want to play, you first need to know the rules and adapt when the rules change. If the NCRS only judged truly "original" cars, it would be a pretty small club! Luckily, they do have a class reserved for truly original cars, and this is called Bowtie.
When you "restore" a car, your whole purpose is to make it appear as it did when it was new and anything you can do toward this end is a plus.
I have restored C1 cars that I changed the color on, and on C1 cars it is impossible to tell what the original color was if done properly, because there was no trim tag to indicate the original color. Everybody on the face of the earth knew my 60 was not Roman Red originally and I made no secret that it was a silver car originally. It did not stop the car from getting a TF and a Duntov, award because it "appeared" correct. I told the buyer, when I sold that car, that I changed the color, but it did not affect the selling price and made no difference to him. The 99% TF and the Duntov told the buyer everything he wanted to know about the quality of the restoration.
These are not one-off masterpieces like the Mona Lisa, they are just an assemblage of parts that rolled of an assembly line. They are cars guys, and while it is admirable that there are those that long for a "time capsule" Corvette which still has the original air in the tires, most of us just want to drive them until they quit and then restore tham and start all over again.
Regards, John McGraw
That is what all us yearn for and manufacturers strive for, a repro part that is indistinguishable from the original. We strive for that because this is how a car is judged at Flight judging. If a part appears real, than it is judged as if it were real. If "no one" can tell the difference, then how could you know whether it is the real deal or not? If you were buying a priceless antique or painting and there was nobody on earth that could tell you whether it was a fake, then you would have to assume it was real, no?
Y'all need to quit kidding yourselves, this why we make replacement hoses with correct logos stamped into them , absolutely correct gas caps, as well as hundreds of other parts which are only built to fool a judge on the judging field. this does not make them perform any better, but only to appear as if they were original parts. This is how the game is played and these are the rules. If you want to play, you first need to know the rules and adapt when the rules change. If the NCRS only judged truly "original" cars, it would be a pretty small club! Luckily, they do have a class reserved for truly original cars, and this is called Bowtie.
When you "restore" a car, your whole purpose is to make it appear as it did when it was new and anything you can do toward this end is a plus.
I have restored C1 cars that I changed the color on, and on C1 cars it is impossible to tell what the original color was if done properly, because there was no trim tag to indicate the original color. Everybody on the face of the earth knew my 60 was not Roman Red originally and I made no secret that it was a silver car originally. It did not stop the car from getting a TF and a Duntov, award because it "appeared" correct. I told the buyer, when I sold that car, that I changed the color, but it did not affect the selling price and made no difference to him. The 99% TF and the Duntov told the buyer everything he wanted to know about the quality of the restoration.
These are not one-off masterpieces like the Mona Lisa, they are just an assemblage of parts that rolled of an assembly line. They are cars guys, and while it is admirable that there are those that long for a "time capsule" Corvette which still has the original air in the tires, most of us just want to drive them until they quit and then restore tham and start all over again.
Regards, John McGraw
05-20-2011, 09:22 AM
#104
Melting Slicks
Mikey,
You are absolutely correct! There are still many out there who still equate Top Flight, or Bloomington Gold with "original".
Most of us that have built cars would more correctly refer to such a car as "correct" rather than "original". I have never represented any car I have ever owned as original, because I know that no 40+ year old car is truly original. Calling a car "all original" IMHO, is no better than the overused description "numbers matching".
That being said, any part that is indistinguishable from known original part would be judged as correct and thus would score the same as original. Does not mean it is is original, only that it could not be distinguished from a known original configuration.
As our knowledge increases in judging (mostly from Bowtie cars) we add subtle nuances to our knowledge of certain configurations that allows us to detect incorrect configurations in parts and assemblies that we might not have had in the past. The sidepipes are a perfect example. 10 years ago a lot of sidepipe conversions would have slipped past most flight judging because a lot of judges did not know some of the subtle little things to look for. As a consequence, the level of detail in the conversion had to go up to avoid being detected. This is how the flight judging game is played, the attention to detail involved in restoration is constantly increasing as the ability to detect these subtle items increases.
Regards, John McGraw
You are absolutely correct! There are still many out there who still equate Top Flight, or Bloomington Gold with "original".
Most of us that have built cars would more correctly refer to such a car as "correct" rather than "original". I have never represented any car I have ever owned as original, because I know that no 40+ year old car is truly original. Calling a car "all original" IMHO, is no better than the overused description "numbers matching".
That being said, any part that is indistinguishable from known original part would be judged as correct and thus would score the same as original. Does not mean it is is original, only that it could not be distinguished from a known original configuration.
As our knowledge increases in judging (mostly from Bowtie cars) we add subtle nuances to our knowledge of certain configurations that allows us to detect incorrect configurations in parts and assemblies that we might not have had in the past. The sidepipes are a perfect example. 10 years ago a lot of sidepipe conversions would have slipped past most flight judging because a lot of judges did not know some of the subtle little things to look for. As a consequence, the level of detail in the conversion had to go up to avoid being detected. This is how the flight judging game is played, the attention to detail involved in restoration is constantly increasing as the ability to detect these subtle items increases.
Regards, John McGraw
Thanks..
/joe
05-20-2011, 10:37 AM
#105
Drifting
Well written John!!! I agree with Copper that this is a great statement.. I have a 65 coupe and while not all original or # matching I WILL strive to get it that way... The chance of me ever finding my original engine is remote at best but I just want it all to match like it did originally.. I appreciate all the work that the NCRS and others have done to help me get it back to the way it "was" but everything is relative... The only original cars IMHO are survivors....
Thanks..
/joe
Thanks..
/joe
