ready to take a sledge hammer to a 1959 283
08-09-2011, 09:50 PM
#21
Melting Slicks
I just read your 1959 283 won't start thread. If this is a flat tappet cam, was it possibly ruined and now you are fighting engine compression? Removing the plugs would tell the story. Let's hope it's not the case.
08-10-2011, 02:41 AM
#22
Le Mans Master
I agree to first check rotating drag and then figure out what is causing your starting issue.
Lets be positive and say it is fine internally because it ran so well initially.
If possible put a torque wrench on the front of the engine and see how many pounds of torque it takes to rotate it, in neutral no plugs in the engine. Should be less than 25 lbs even on a new engine. If it is rotating without a lot of drag internal's are fine.
Could the clutch or tranny be causing drag? Did it rotate better after cooling?
Don't panic, enjoy that cold one and a couple more. A clear head will find your answer soon. Save the sledge hammer for the neighborhood thief.
Lets be positive and say it is fine internally because it ran so well initially.
If possible put a torque wrench on the front of the engine and see how many pounds of torque it takes to rotate it, in neutral no plugs in the engine. Should be less than 25 lbs even on a new engine. If it is rotating without a lot of drag internal's are fine.
Could the clutch or tranny be causing drag? Did it rotate better after cooling?
Don't panic, enjoy that cold one and a couple more. A clear head will find your answer soon. Save the sledge hammer for the neighborhood thief.
08-10-2011, 02:46 AM
#23
Le Mans Master
I re read the #1 post, its not temp related. The drag on the starter you speak of would draw so many amps that the battery cables should have gotten very warm if not hot trying to turn the starter. If they don't have that kind of amp load trying to turn a tight engine you probably have an electrical problem. Weak connection somewhere.
08-10-2011, 08:59 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
Nice car.
Treetopflyer,
The commits of the other posters point pretty well the things to keep an eye on. The tach and engine not matching is the biggest issue, make sure they explain it. Price wise, I think some of the guys here want to believe that prices have dropped a little more than they really have. Just check all the sources for Vettes that are for sale and see there the market is right now. It's a nice car but don't let the bright shiney paint blind you.
All that said, I have '66 coupe, 327/350, close ratio, 3.70 posi and it's a combo that gives plenty of performance, good handling and driveability. I live a short distance from you and can tell you that you will need AC here in southeast VA, the midyear coupes are like an oven this time of the year.
The commits of the other posters point pretty well the things to keep an eye on. The tach and engine not matching is the biggest issue, make sure they explain it. Price wise, I think some of the guys here want to believe that prices have dropped a little more than they really have. Just check all the sources for Vettes that are for sale and see there the market is right now. It's a nice car but don't let the bright shiney paint blind you.
All that said, I have '66 coupe, 327/350, close ratio, 3.70 posi and it's a combo that gives plenty of performance, good handling and driveability. I live a short distance from you and can tell you that you will need AC here in southeast VA, the midyear coupes are like an oven this time of the year.
08-10-2011, 09:41 AM
#25
Melting Slicks
I agree with pulling the plugs and trying to turn it by hand, or a socket on the crank pulley. It's POSSIBLE there's a bearing issue and it has not set up completely. If it spins freely by hand you know you might have some sort of starter-related issue.
Let us know what you find out.
Let us know what you find out.
08-10-2011, 09:42 AM
#26
Advanced
Starter drive gear clearance?
Did you by chance check the clearance of the starter bendix drive gear to the flywheel teeth? Is the starter a block mount or a bellhousing mount style? If it is the block mount type the gear clearance can be changed. If the clearance is too tight, the dragging symptom you mention can happen. The clearance can be changed with shims made for that purpose. It is easiest to check when the engine is still out, but a bit of trial and error can be done with the engine in. Try 1 shim under the starter first to see if it changes the starter action. Shims sometimes come with the new starter - or are a NAPA item. Remember- -it is just a piece of machinery and you are smarter than it is! good Luck. Ed
08-10-2011, 11:14 AM
#27
Race Director
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2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
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Distributor has moved. Mark where it is now. Loosen the nut get someone to roll it over and move it back and forth a bit to see if it turns over faster one way or the other. Or set it statically with no.1 up TDC on compression stroke to see how far off it is.
08-10-2011, 11:37 AM
#29
Le Mans Master
Great point. A strap could have been omitted during the installation. Another good way to test that path is to run one jumper cable from the battery neg. terminal directly to the engine or starter frame.
08-10-2011, 11:41 AM
#30
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '05
ou probably have an electrical problem.
OP are you good with a multimeter and start testing?
You got new starter batt cables, grounds, work backwards from there.
Id test at your fusebox also. Perhaps some with better electrical know how can pipe in.
Checking starter to FW clearance isnt a bad idea either
stuck on electrical issue.
08-10-2011, 04:36 PM
#33
Le Mans Master
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OK,
-Brand new starter and solenoid.
-Brand new battery cables.
-Tried several locations for ground to make sure I had a good one.
-Distributor is tight. It was running perfect when I shut the engine off.
-Just cracked open a cold one and waiting for some sage advice.
-Brand new starter and solenoid.
-Brand new battery cables.
-Tried several locations for ground to make sure I had a good one.
-Distributor is tight. It was running perfect when I shut the engine off.
-Just cracked open a cold one and waiting for some sage advice.
"With the plugs out, you should be able to grab a fan belt and turn the engine over by hand. Can you?"
08-10-2011, 08:47 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
If your battery cables are not new toss them out. If your ground cables are not new toss them. Make sure al grounds are in place and no corrosion.
Not saying this is your problem,
next time you go to car show notice how many cars that have had thousands of dollars spent on paint, interior, wheels and what do they do for battery cables?? They put the speedy repair cables with the 1/4 inch clamp bolts. At best when new they are a 50% connection. A sure sign of a Buba repair. I call them SHOW clamps. I bought a 65 Malibu SS today that had them just put on it. I waited for the owner to install them to load the car on my trailer. AS soon as it was tied down I grabbed my cutters and cut them off and gave them back to the owner. New cables are on order. Dave
Not saying this is your problem,
next time you go to car show notice how many cars that have had thousands of dollars spent on paint, interior, wheels and what do they do for battery cables?? They put the speedy repair cables with the 1/4 inch clamp bolts. At best when new they are a 50% connection. A sure sign of a Buba repair. I call them SHOW clamps. I bought a 65 Malibu SS today that had them just put on it. I waited for the owner to install them to load the car on my trailer. AS soon as it was tied down I grabbed my cutters and cut them off and gave them back to the owner. New cables are on order. Dave
08-10-2011, 09:02 PM
#35
Instructor
Thread Starter
Took plugs out but can't turn the engine by hand with the fan belt.
With that said I have a couple of questions:
-Since it is a new engine, wouldn't it turn hard anyway?
-WHEN I TURN IT OVER WITH THE STARTER IT TURNS OVER SLOW BUT IT DOES TURN OVER AND THEN DIES OUT LIKE THE BATTERY GOES DEAD. IF there was something internal I would think that it would not turn over at all or it would continue to turn over slow and not die out.
The engine ran three times with a total of about 20 to 30 seconds each time. The last time it ran perfectly and I shut it off, it did not stall or seize up.
The ground cable is connected at the back of the bell housing with a bolt that holds the starter in.
With that said I have a couple of questions:
-Since it is a new engine, wouldn't it turn hard anyway?
-WHEN I TURN IT OVER WITH THE STARTER IT TURNS OVER SLOW BUT IT DOES TURN OVER AND THEN DIES OUT LIKE THE BATTERY GOES DEAD. IF there was something internal I would think that it would not turn over at all or it would continue to turn over slow and not die out.
The engine ran three times with a total of about 20 to 30 seconds each time. The last time it ran perfectly and I shut it off, it did not stall or seize up.
The ground cable is connected at the back of the bell housing with a bolt that holds the starter in.
08-10-2011, 09:08 PM
#36
Tech Contributor
Took plugs out but can't turn the engine by hand with the fan belt.
With that said I have a couple of questions:
-Since it is a new engine, wouldn't it turn hard anyway?
-WHEN I TURN IT OVER WITH THE STARTER IT TURNS OVER SLOW BUT IT DOES TURN OVER AND THEN DIES OUT LIKE THE BATTERY GOES DEAD. IF there was something internal I would think that it would not turn over at all or it would continue to turn over slow and not die out.
The engine ran three times with a total of about 20 to 30 seconds each time. The last time it ran perfectly and I shut it off, it did not stall or seize up.
The ground cable is connected at the back of the bell housing with a bolt that holds the starter in.
With that said I have a couple of questions:
-Since it is a new engine, wouldn't it turn hard anyway?
-WHEN I TURN IT OVER WITH THE STARTER IT TURNS OVER SLOW BUT IT DOES TURN OVER AND THEN DIES OUT LIKE THE BATTERY GOES DEAD. IF there was something internal I would think that it would not turn over at all or it would continue to turn over slow and not die out.
The engine ran three times with a total of about 20 to 30 seconds each time. The last time it ran perfectly and I shut it off, it did not stall or seize up.
The ground cable is connected at the back of the bell housing with a bolt that holds the starter in.
08-10-2011, 09:09 PM
#37
I don't think it would be unusual to not be able to turn the engine over by the fan belt even without the plugs installed. Try it with a wrench on the crank pulley, if you cant turn it there than you have trouble for sure.
08-10-2011, 09:09 PM
#38
Le Mans Master
Took plugs out but can't turn the engine by hand with the fan belt.
With that said I have a couple of questions:
-Since it is a new engine, wouldn't it turn hard anyway?
-WHEN I TURN IT OVER WITH THE STARTER IT TURNS OVER SLOW BUT IT DOES TURN OVER AND THEN DIES OUT LIKE THE BATTERY GOES DEAD. IF there was something internal I would think that it would not turn over at all or it would continue to turn over slow and not die out.
The engine ran three times with a total of about 20 to 30 seconds each time. The last time it ran perfectly and I shut it off, it did not stall or seize up.
The ground cable is connected at the back of the bell housing with a bolt that holds the starter in.
With that said I have a couple of questions:
-Since it is a new engine, wouldn't it turn hard anyway?
-WHEN I TURN IT OVER WITH THE STARTER IT TURNS OVER SLOW BUT IT DOES TURN OVER AND THEN DIES OUT LIKE THE BATTERY GOES DEAD. IF there was something internal I would think that it would not turn over at all or it would continue to turn over slow and not die out.
The engine ran three times with a total of about 20 to 30 seconds each time. The last time it ran perfectly and I shut it off, it did not stall or seize up.
The ground cable is connected at the back of the bell housing with a bolt that holds the starter in.
I really hate to suggest it, but, maybe you should pull the oil filter and open it up. If you find anything that looks like babbit or copper, drain the oil and have a sample analyzed. Any truck shop can help with that.
08-10-2011, 09:52 PM
#39
Drifting
Took plugs out but can't turn the engine by hand with the fan belt.
With that said I have a couple of questions:
-Since it is a new engine, wouldn't it turn hard anyway?
-WHEN I TURN IT OVER WITH THE STARTER IT TURNS OVER SLOW BUT IT DOES TURN OVER AND THEN DIES OUT LIKE THE BATTERY GOES DEAD. IF there was something internal I would think that it would not turn over at all or it would continue to turn over slow and not die out.
The engine ran three times with a total of about 20 to 30 seconds each time. The last time it ran perfectly and I shut it off, it did not stall or seize up.
The ground cable is connected at the back of the bell housing with a bolt that holds the starter in.
With that said I have a couple of questions:
-Since it is a new engine, wouldn't it turn hard anyway?
-WHEN I TURN IT OVER WITH THE STARTER IT TURNS OVER SLOW BUT IT DOES TURN OVER AND THEN DIES OUT LIKE THE BATTERY GOES DEAD. IF there was something internal I would think that it would not turn over at all or it would continue to turn over slow and not die out.
The engine ran three times with a total of about 20 to 30 seconds each time. The last time it ran perfectly and I shut it off, it did not stall or seize up.
The ground cable is connected at the back of the bell housing with a bolt that holds the starter in.
That being said, if the rocker arms are still in place and adjusted, even with the plugs out you will have a difficult time using your hands to turn the engine over since you will also be compressing the valve springs. Not saying it can't be done, it is just difficult.
I would suggest using a flywheel turner. You can pick one up fairly cheap at most auto parts stores. You may be able to rent one from some of them also. Get under the car and use this tool to turn the engine. It should rotate fairly easily with the plugs out. If it does not, then you may have some internal binding causing the starter to give up the ghost after a few cranks.
Remember, just because the engine ran for a couple of short term busts, does not mean there are no internal issues. It is telling you something by shutting down and refusing to start.
If you have difficulty turning it with the flywheel tool, then I would suggest getting the builder involved
One other thing you can try is to remove the plugs and then crank it with the starter. It should crank all day that way. Again, if not, time to call the builder.
edit: I just saw that you already tried this. If you want to keep digging, then remove the rocker covers and remove the rocker arms and crank again.
Tom
1960 Black/Black 283/230 4sp http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/tmh454/1960/
1971 Coupe, Bridgehampton Blue, LS5 4sp
2005 Coupe, Lemans Blue, 6spd
Last edited by thoyer; 08-10-2011 at 10:00 PM.
08-10-2011, 10:36 PM
#40
Drifting
Will the starter spin the engine with the plugs out? If so, put a timing light on it and see if you are in the ballpark. When you get the timing right, put the plugs back in and make sure you get the wires where they are suppose to be.
If it still will not fire up, push it out of the garage and tie a rope on that puppy and pull it down the road about 20 mph. With the ignition switch on, dump the clutch in 2nd gear and light it off the old school way.
tc
If it still will not fire up, push it out of the garage and tie a rope on that puppy and pull it down the road about 20 mph. With the ignition switch on, dump the clutch in 2nd gear and light it off the old school way.
tc