1960 315hp Aluminum Head Not True
02-02-2012, 03:56 PM
#21
02-02-2012, 04:11 PM
#22
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2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
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The serenity prayer comes to mind....
02-02-2012, 04:30 PM
#23
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Hmm.. Let's see if I can explain this a little differently.
This particular car has slipped through the cracks. The misrepresentation occurred before the Mecum auction. I'm not pointing fingers at Mecum.
When something with this supposed history rolls across the block for the whole world to see, with a front license plate with giant letters that say NCRS, a certain trust is established. The NCRS ends up looking like they were involved in the deception by allowing their name to be displayed on the vehicle. Anyone can say whatever they want about any particular object. There is no law against that. It's also ok to display NCRS logo wherever you want. I'm saying neither of these things should be allowed. There needs to be legislation and safeguards adopted that will make the collector car industry as a whole more appealing and reputable for future generations.
In regard to this car in the last hour we have narrowed it down to who misrepresented the vehicle.
Noland Adams had no right to publish bogus info based on 1 goofus letter from a then current owner. He should explain why he refuses to answer requests from multiple owners across decades of time.
The NCRS is a prestigious organization and has tremendous integrity. They need to number one get in touch because i've asked them too and number two identify why they are letting a car go on world wide tv under false documentation and component content.
The car is not traced back to the original selling dealer. The original owner refused to speak with the guy doing the research in the 80's. It had an electrical fire, an accident on the left side and an engine failure at 55k miles. There is your provenance. There was never any burlap sack with duct parts or aluminum heads.
Yes i have gotten in touch with my father and the original owner. I don't think I'm police but hopefully I'm conveying the message that as times change inter organizational and inter industry policies must change as well.
This particular car has slipped through the cracks. The misrepresentation occurred before the Mecum auction. I'm not pointing fingers at Mecum.
When something with this supposed history rolls across the block for the whole world to see, with a front license plate with giant letters that say NCRS, a certain trust is established. The NCRS ends up looking like they were involved in the deception by allowing their name to be displayed on the vehicle. Anyone can say whatever they want about any particular object. There is no law against that. It's also ok to display NCRS logo wherever you want. I'm saying neither of these things should be allowed. There needs to be legislation and safeguards adopted that will make the collector car industry as a whole more appealing and reputable for future generations.
In regard to this car in the last hour we have narrowed it down to who misrepresented the vehicle.
Noland Adams had no right to publish bogus info based on 1 goofus letter from a then current owner. He should explain why he refuses to answer requests from multiple owners across decades of time.
The NCRS is a prestigious organization and has tremendous integrity. They need to number one get in touch because i've asked them too and number two identify why they are letting a car go on world wide tv under false documentation and component content.
The car is not traced back to the original selling dealer. The original owner refused to speak with the guy doing the research in the 80's. It had an electrical fire, an accident on the left side and an engine failure at 55k miles. There is your provenance. There was never any burlap sack with duct parts or aluminum heads.
Yes i have gotten in touch with my father and the original owner. I don't think I'm police but hopefully I'm conveying the message that as times change inter organizational and inter industry policies must change as well.
For all we know, the buyer may have been well aware that it was not an alum 315 hp car.
Last edited by Dan Hampton; 02-02-2012 at 06:37 PM.
02-02-2012, 05:16 PM
#24
Safety Car
Man, put down the crack pipe and get some fresh air!
First, NCRS has never certified any car. They only judge it against a set of published standards, period! They could not prevent the car from being mis-represented or being sold by anybody. They are not a policing organization, they are simply an organization that promotes the conservation and restoration of vintage Corvettes. I would not hold my breath waiting for them to respond to your wild demands!If your car was judged to a certain level, then you have the right to state that level. At no point did NCRS ever certify that the car was being accurately represented for sale!
Second, Nolan Adams can print anything he wishes, it is called the first amendment. The passage you are talking about was printed and researched more years ago than most of us can remember, and Nolan is a old man now, who I am sure, has neither the time of inclination to debate this issue with you. There are many things which were printed in his books which have been proven to be incorrect in later years, but he did the best he could under the circumstances, and without people like him, we would not know a lot of what we know about these cars today.
Third, exactly who do you propose to be the "Czar" of this new industry policing organization? Are we all going to have to submit our cars for approval before selling them!
There are perfectly good laws about deceptive trade practices that an aggrieved buyer can avail himself of when a car has been materially mis-represented, but I see no person doing so. Exactly, what stake do you think you have in this process that you think gives you the right to interrogate either Nolan , any officer of the NCRS, any previous owner, or any dealer or auction house.
So, probably the car did not come with aluminum heads, but what the hell business is that of yours, you do not have a dog in this hunt! It is a well document fact that none of them were delivered to customers, but if a buyer is willing to ignore that fact and buy the car, than why is it any of your concern? How the hell many 63 cars have been sold over the years with knock-off wheels, when it is well known that they were not available due to production problems.
Take a chill pill and accept that sometimes people will present a restored car that may not reflect the exact configuration that existed when the car was built. Happens every day, and will continue to happen. all you are going to succeed in, is giving yourself an heart attack. There is sufficient resources available to a buyer to make an informed decision about the purchase of a car. If the car was intentionally mis-represented, the buyer has legal recourse, but you sir, have no recourse.
Regards, John McGraw
First, NCRS has never certified any car. They only judge it against a set of published standards, period! They could not prevent the car from being mis-represented or being sold by anybody. They are not a policing organization, they are simply an organization that promotes the conservation and restoration of vintage Corvettes. I would not hold my breath waiting for them to respond to your wild demands!If your car was judged to a certain level, then you have the right to state that level. At no point did NCRS ever certify that the car was being accurately represented for sale!
Second, Nolan Adams can print anything he wishes, it is called the first amendment. The passage you are talking about was printed and researched more years ago than most of us can remember, and Nolan is a old man now, who I am sure, has neither the time of inclination to debate this issue with you. There are many things which were printed in his books which have been proven to be incorrect in later years, but he did the best he could under the circumstances, and without people like him, we would not know a lot of what we know about these cars today.
Third, exactly who do you propose to be the "Czar" of this new industry policing organization? Are we all going to have to submit our cars for approval before selling them!
There are perfectly good laws about deceptive trade practices that an aggrieved buyer can avail himself of when a car has been materially mis-represented, but I see no person doing so. Exactly, what stake do you think you have in this process that you think gives you the right to interrogate either Nolan , any officer of the NCRS, any previous owner, or any dealer or auction house.
So, probably the car did not come with aluminum heads, but what the hell business is that of yours, you do not have a dog in this hunt! It is a well document fact that none of them were delivered to customers, but if a buyer is willing to ignore that fact and buy the car, than why is it any of your concern? How the hell many 63 cars have been sold over the years with knock-off wheels, when it is well known that they were not available due to production problems.
Take a chill pill and accept that sometimes people will present a restored car that may not reflect the exact configuration that existed when the car was built. Happens every day, and will continue to happen. all you are going to succeed in, is giving yourself an heart attack. There is sufficient resources available to a buyer to make an informed decision about the purchase of a car. If the car was intentionally mis-represented, the buyer has legal recourse, but you sir, have no recourse.
Regards, John McGraw
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59BlueSilver (04-24-2016)
02-02-2012, 05:27 PM
#25
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Yes, anyone can attach any plate or say whatever they want. It is time for that to change. NCRS or any other equivalent organization should not be exposed to the possibility of garnering a tarnished reputation based on bogus information marketed by an individual(s).
What's a good analogy..it's like buying a bottle of Absolute but finding out the contents were chaska? shaska? Popov there's a winner.
Not sure how else to convey my message.
Jason
What's a good analogy..it's like buying a bottle of Absolute but finding out the contents were chaska? shaska? Popov there's a winner.
Not sure how else to convey my message.
Jason
02-02-2012, 05:41 PM
#26
Safety Car
I would submit, that at the price it sold for, the price reflected the questionable representations made about the car.
I am sorry, but $175K for a car that was represented as a one-of-a-kind, does not match. In my opinion, the price was indicative of what a well restored 60 big brake, FI car, with this quality of restoration would bring. This is a multiple TopFlight and Duntov award winner, with an outstanding restoration, and I think that the price paid for this car reflected this, not what a one-of-a-kind prototype car would bring.
Your analogy about the Vodka is valid, as long as you paid the premium price for the premium Vodka! If you thought that you were probably buying cheap vodka, and only paid a price that reflected this quality, then you have no room to complain.
Regards, John McGraw
I am sorry, but $175K for a car that was represented as a one-of-a-kind, does not match. In my opinion, the price was indicative of what a well restored 60 big brake, FI car, with this quality of restoration would bring. This is a multiple TopFlight and Duntov award winner, with an outstanding restoration, and I think that the price paid for this car reflected this, not what a one-of-a-kind prototype car would bring.
Your analogy about the Vodka is valid, as long as you paid the premium price for the premium Vodka! If you thought that you were probably buying cheap vodka, and only paid a price that reflected this quality, then you have no room to complain.
Regards, John McGraw
02-02-2012, 05:53 PM
#27
Race Director
I was skeptical of the car in the beginning as having a 315....and that it was purchased right off the floor of 'Penskys dealership on Telegraph road......U.S. 24, as an apparent new 1960 Corvette....but the kicker is that 1959/60 there was no Pensky Chevrolet in Michigan at that time....I was going to mention this fact in this cars previous thread but thought it would not make any difference....I could only recall him racing Camaros at a later time...1967 maybe...
but, Whatever... :
but, Whatever... :
02-02-2012, 05:54 PM
#28
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Mr. McGraw,
I am extremely disappointed in your choice of words. Crack pipes and pill references aren't winning you any friends or influencing any people. I would like to see you display the dignified and helpful person that you have been in so very many posts within this forum.
Why are you so emotional? Create change and help form an industry with a good reputation is what I'm up too. Or should I say what the hell I'm up too.
The collector car industry is growing rapidly and is on the front end of a bubble. If you guys don't make things right values will collapse like the housing market did only permanently.
AS John McGraw has stated, theNCRS only is involved to a certain point which I think he conveyed in his message much better than I did. Same with other collector car organizations. We have to change this. This particular vehicle is only an example.
Jason
I am extremely disappointed in your choice of words. Crack pipes and pill references aren't winning you any friends or influencing any people. I would like to see you display the dignified and helpful person that you have been in so very many posts within this forum.
Why are you so emotional? Create change and help form an industry with a good reputation is what I'm up too. Or should I say what the hell I'm up too.
The collector car industry is growing rapidly and is on the front end of a bubble. If you guys don't make things right values will collapse like the housing market did only permanently.
AS John McGraw has stated, theNCRS only is involved to a certain point which I think he conveyed in his message much better than I did. Same with other collector car organizations. We have to change this. This particular vehicle is only an example.
Jason
02-02-2012, 06:03 PM
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This is stupid. What if I put an Edelbrock sticker on my car and don't have Edelbrock parts. Does that make Edelbrock responsible?
The OPs attitude is the same as the guy that's jacked up over who's banging his Ex
The OPs attitude is the same as the guy that's jacked up over who's banging his Ex
02-02-2012, 06:04 PM
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IRONCROSS,
I'm very glad you posted. My dad asked me today, "how in the he'll did you know that it came from Penske Chevrolet," and I didn't have an answer for him.
If you look at the picture in the vintage corvettes.com site, it shows an iron head. I have not spoken with Mr. Wyatt yet. seems around that time the original bag of brake duct work showed up. It appears to be after that that the aluminum head deal came into play
Jason
I'm very glad you posted. My dad asked me today, "how in the he'll did you know that it came from Penske Chevrolet," and I didn't have an answer for him.
If you look at the picture in the vintage corvettes.com site, it shows an iron head. I have not spoken with Mr. Wyatt yet. seems around that time the original bag of brake duct work showed up. It appears to be after that that the aluminum head deal came into play
Jason
02-02-2012, 06:08 PM
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VEGA$VETTES,
That is an absolutely asinine statement and makes no sense whatsoever. ere bock deals with car parts and the NCRS deals with that and a whole lot more interpretation.
Jason
That is an absolutely asinine statement and makes no sense whatsoever. ere bock deals with car parts and the NCRS deals with that and a whole lot more interpretation.
Jason
02-02-2012, 06:14 PM
#34
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Mr. McGraw,
I am extremely disappointed in your choice of words. Crack pipes and pill references aren't winning you any friends or influencing any people. I would like to see you display the dignified and helpful person that you have been in so very many posts within this forum.
Why are you so emotional? Create change and help form an industry with a good reputation is what I'm up too. Or should I say what the hell I'm up too.
The collector car industry is growing rapidly and is on the front end of a bubble. If you guys don't make things right values will collapse like the housing market did only permanently.
AS John McGraw has stated, theNCRS only is involved to a certain point which I think he conveyed in his message much better than I did. Same with other collector car organizations. We have to change this. This particular vehicle is only an example.
Jason
I am extremely disappointed in your choice of words. Crack pipes and pill references aren't winning you any friends or influencing any people. I would like to see you display the dignified and helpful person that you have been in so very many posts within this forum.
Why are you so emotional? Create change and help form an industry with a good reputation is what I'm up too. Or should I say what the hell I'm up too.
The collector car industry is growing rapidly and is on the front end of a bubble. If you guys don't make things right values will collapse like the housing market did only permanently.
AS John McGraw has stated, theNCRS only is involved to a certain point which I think he conveyed in his message much better than I did. Same with other collector car organizations. We have to change this. This particular vehicle is only an example.
Jason
You seem to be on a high horse about this. This is America people can say what they want.Whats the deal with you. You seem to protest too much. There is a good reason that nobody responded to you because you are Pi**ing inthe wind. What rare Corvette do you own or are you the origionality police. Get a life!
02-02-2012, 06:17 PM
#35
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They don't appraise, certify, verify or anything else and certainly don't assume any responsibility or liability if someone sticks an NCRS plate on their car at auction or anywhere else.
I too wish we living in a perfect world but the reality is we don't and never will.
That said it is Always Buyer Beware
Last edited by Vega$Vette; 02-02-2012 at 06:19 PM.
02-02-2012, 06:56 PM
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VEGA$vetoes,
I agree 100%. So how is it that we can change this? I'm saying if the NCRS doesn't represent the car and didn't allow their plate to be on the car it would be different.
Kenba,
You have misinterpreted where I'm coming from. I posted on this forum for input but have receive a tremendous number of responses externally.
Jason
I agree 100%. So how is it that we can change this? I'm saying if the NCRS doesn't represent the car and didn't allow their plate to be on the car it would be different.
Kenba,
You have misinterpreted where I'm coming from. I posted on this forum for input but have receive a tremendous number of responses externally.
Jason
02-02-2012, 07:48 PM
#38
Safety Car
Mr. McGraw,
I am extremely disappointed in your choice of words. Crack pipes and pill references aren't winning you any friends or influencing any people. I would like to see you display the dignified and helpful person that you have been in so very many posts within this forum.
Why are you so emotional? Create change and help form an industry with a good reputation is what I'm up too. Or should I say what the hell I'm up too.
The collector car industry is growing rapidly and is on the front end of a bubble. If you guys don't make things right values will collapse like the housing market did only permanently.
AS John McGraw has stated, theNCRS only is involved to a certain point which I think he conveyed in his message much better than I did. Same with other collector car organizations. We have to change this. This particular vehicle is only an example.
Jason
I am extremely disappointed in your choice of words. Crack pipes and pill references aren't winning you any friends or influencing any people. I would like to see you display the dignified and helpful person that you have been in so very many posts within this forum.
Why are you so emotional? Create change and help form an industry with a good reputation is what I'm up too. Or should I say what the hell I'm up too.
The collector car industry is growing rapidly and is on the front end of a bubble. If you guys don't make things right values will collapse like the housing market did only permanently.
AS John McGraw has stated, theNCRS only is involved to a certain point which I think he conveyed in his message much better than I did. Same with other collector car organizations. We have to change this. This particular vehicle is only an example.
Jason
Jason,
My response was kind of tounge-in-cheek, but I meant everything I said. I am really past the point in my life where I am trying to win any friends, I just say it like I see it, and you can either take it or leave it. I would be less than honest however, if did not tell you that I thought you were acting a just a little crazy.
You start out by demanding that everybody that was even remotely connected with this car, contact you and answer to you as to why the car was represented like it was when you do not even have a dog in this hunt. Then you propose that there be some sort of industry-wide oversight policing take place to stop this practice. You are very naive to the ways of the world, or just disconnected from it. Do you really propose to have big brother looking over your shoulder when you sell a car, to assure that you are properly representing it?
I merely pointed out that there were plenty of laws in place to deal with the issue, without creating another bureaucracy, to deal with this issue. How do you propose to fund this giant oversight policing operation, or have you even thought that far?
I am not emotional about this issue, but you clearly are. Your original post, left the impression of somebody who was not entirely in control of his faculties. Sorry if my response offended you, but I thought then, and I still do that your entire concept of policing the sale of classic cars, is both poorly conceived and unworkable. Who would get to decide if a car was mis-represented, and what process would they use. If somebody like Ironcross, who has owned his car since it was new, would make representations about the car, would his representations be accepted without iron-clad documentation?
Once again, there are laws in place to protect people from intentional mis-representaion in sales like this, so why do we need new laws, and new bureaucracies to deal with this issue. My comments about taking a chill pill still stand. I think if you just calm down a little, you will begin to see just how untenable your plan is.
Regards, John McGraw
02-02-2012, 07:53 PM
#39
Safety Car
Regards, John McGraw
02-02-2012, 08:05 PM
#40
Safety Car
VEGA$vetoes,
I agree 100%. So how is it that we can change this? I'm saying if the NCRS doesn't represent the car and didn't allow their plate to be on the car it would be different.
Kenba,
You have misinterpreted where I'm coming from. I posted on this forum for input but have receive a tremendous number of responses externally.
Jason
I agree 100%. So how is it that we can change this? I'm saying if the NCRS doesn't represent the car and didn't allow their plate to be on the car it would be different.
Kenba,
You have misinterpreted where I'm coming from. I posted on this forum for input but have receive a tremendous number of responses externally.
Jason
That plate is recognition for the awarding of the Duntov Mark of Excellence for the car. His car achieved this award, and is entitled to wear this plate. I am sure that the seller kept this plate when he sold the car, as this award is the culmination of a huge amount of effort expended to win that award. I also have one of these plates, and it will never leave my possession. To suggest that NCRS would prevent the display of the one of the most prestigious award they you can be awarded, is ludicrous. Maybe they can just quit awarding these plates, that would resolve the displaying of them. As a matter of fact, maybe we can just quit awarding TopFlight awards, as somebody may use one to try and mis-represent their car when they sell it.
Regards, John McGraw