Jay1

Mr. McGraw,

I appreciate the reply. It is not decent to tell someone to take pills or acuse someone of using crack. That is not funny and you should absolutely retract those statements

Your input is more than valuable. I am very glad that you have posted twice now and are very passionate about your point of view.

You guys get it?

I don't need to post on a forum. This input is absolutely positively beneficial to what is going on. I hope that other people will chime in or PM me if they don't want to be heard.

I say the industry needs to update. Let's hear some pros and cons and maybe as a web organization we can agree to keep our comments - not insulting to the posters?

Mr. McGraw has a valid point. I don't know him personally but think maybe as much as he wants me to take drugs perhaps he can cool it himself and look at my side of the argument.

The bottom. Line is that there needs to be some industrywide reform. When you create a rule, the opposite tends to occur such as moonshine. Let's get some more comments like Mr. McGraws and see what we can draft up to see this industry inTo the future.

Jason

provette67

are you for real?? in your profile you mention that your father's '60 is mentioned in Volume one of the restoration manual.You of course mean the book that Noland Adams wrote.One of the guys that you are bashing in this thread.

BarryK

wow....i think someone forgot to take his meds today....

SWC Tim

Jay,
I think that was Cleveland, a micro brewer in Cleveland named his pale ale after it - Burning River ( that is how i remember where the "river burned")
I don't understand where you are coming from, it presently has Al heads ? and you think these are correct or incorrect?
Am presently dealing with a piece of Period furnature that all the experts say is fraud but will not go on record or testify in court for me (except one). No one is willing to be the Police!
In my profession (Dentist-ouch) I have "policed" many improper situations and gotten patients their fees refunded. Yes, I have created a number of enemies, But I am going to my grave knowing I did the right thing.
Tim

OldKarz

I must agree with all the others, your thought process on this issue is a bit . Take a deep breath and re-read what you have posted thus far. The vintage car market is what it is, you nor anyone else is going to change it. You need to pick a battle you have a chance of winning and this is not one of them. Good luck!

Jay1

Ok, I'm goofy and take all kinds of pills and smoke crack according to funny man John McGraw and BarryK.

How is this helping us find a solution to the misrepresentation problem?

Jason

Jay1

Tim,

I'm sure it was Toledo where the Jeep plant was or is. They were part of the problem I thought. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.

I don't know the song.

Jason

Jay1

In reviewing the thread as I have been told to do, I got confused.

John McGraw states yack, yack, yack, "What the hell," yack yack, NolandAdams has made incredible strides in the Corvette hobby even though a portion of what has been published has been proven false, yack yack the entire industry is just for fun, nothing can be taken seriously, Adams book is for entertainment purposes only, anyone can say whatever they want cause it's all just for fun and if you buy a falselydocumented vehicle for an exceptional price haha.

Does that sum up the attitude of the old guard here?

Jason

Frankie the Fink

ZZZzzzzzzz......

Vega$Vette

The 1st step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.

Congratulations.

provette67

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1

The original owner refused to speak with the guy doing the research in the 80's. It had an electrical fire, an accident on the left side and an engine failure at 55k miles.


Is this when your family's association with the car ended?? You have replied to everything else but skipped over this guy's comment.Maybe this is true and the "fraud" was committed by your family then.That is a horrible statement about your family by me.But isn't that what you are doing in this thread about several people and organizations?But of course I am sure that at the time of that sale it was buyer beware just as it was at the time of this sale..I have read all of your posts on this topic and I cannot figure out who or what you are upset with.Misrepresentation? really?Why should any one here believe what you have to say about this car or anything else for that matter?

SunsetC6

Must be High Noon in the old west somewhere.....


________________________


Over a tag....

To any buyers beware: It has been said before. There are clones and there are misrepresentations and there is false advertising. Just do your homework before you buy and all will be fine. If you like the car and don't need the documentation by all means buy it..If not leave and move on. There are cars all over the world.

JM2C....

Jay1

Provette67,

I did reply to the guys comment. I said that the accident was never known but the engine failure and electrical fire were disclosed. In the mid 80's a guy came by and interviewed my father about the car.

It was only a few years ago that we happened to run into the original owner and he told many a wild tale of corvette experiences including the accident.

Why would I make this up? You make no sense and your attempt to disqualify me is what...silly? Dumb? Ridiculous? How about senseless. That seems appropriate?

Jason

gbvette62

At 57, I consider myself a member of the "old guard". I have been involved in the old car hobby, since 1968. Yes, I said hobby, not industry, as I still consider it a hobby and I make a living from this hobby!

Does your representation sum up my "old guard" attitude, maybe. I know there are mistakes in Nolan's book. There are mistakes in most books, and research material available. There are mistakes in the NCRS Judging Manuals. There are mistakes in the newspaper everyday and on this Forum too. Heck, I've mistakenly posted incorrect information on the Forum. It happens.

The way I understand it. You claim to have personal knowledge of a particular car, that has an NCRS tag on it, and you dispute the correctness of the car. So based on your claims, you want the NCRS, Nolan Adams, The Corvette Forum and others, to demand that the owner remove the NCRS tag from the car. Then you want the NCRS, or some other "policing" body, to do what? Remove the car from the current owner's possession, demand the owner return it to the way you "believe" it was built, or post notices all over the web that you think the owner is lying?

Who cares if a car owner has an NCRS sticker or tag on their car? I don't, and I'm an NCRS judge! I use to belong to the SCCA (Sports Car Club of America), but I don't anymore. Should I be required to send back any club shirts or stickers I have lying around, or peel off the sticker that's on my beer cooler, because I haven't been a member in 20 years?

For a fee, the NCRS will provide the judging history of the car. If I buyer doubts the sellers claims about what awards the car received from the NCRS, they can get the history. This doesn't mean that the NCRS has certified the car was correct in any way. It just means that on the day it was presented for judging, and in the opinion of the judges, it represented an as delivered new Corvette, nothing more.

What ever happened to personal responsibility? It's not the NCRS' responsibility, or any other entity's responsibility, to police the hobby. It is solely the responsibility of the buyer, to determine if a car is what it is represented to be, and no one else!

There is way to much "policing" of our lives already! I don't need some self appointed expert, policing my hobby too!

hedgehead

The car was misrepresented.
Our collector car hobby should not be analagous to a used car lot.

OldKarz

Well said!

neal_c60

Actually, he's right.

You seem to be glossing over the most important(it appears from the narrative as told by the posts in here so far) part of the history.

Namely, what was the car represented as when your father bought it, and what was it represented as when he sold it. That seems to be during the time frame that it was (erroneously) declared a "315hp, Al head car".

Did your father mislead Adams? Did he merely take advantage of Adams mistake, sell the car as Adams described it? In either case, the ONLY person you have an issue with.... is your pops.

If he didn't actively defraud Adams by initiating the false rumor, he would still be the original perpetrator of fraud if he then sold it as an Aluminum head car based on what he knew was a mistake by Adams.

Adams may have made a mistake, but he never committed a fraud(unless he took money from either your father or another owner to "document" their false claim).

Adams, NCRS, Mecum owe you nothing, and certainly not an explanation(and as his son, you might even owe THEM one....).

What Adams said about the car is immaterial. He never sold or profited from the car(unless you claim secret information otherwise).

The OWNERS are the ONLY people who's claims about the car matters.

What was the car claimed by the owner who sold it to your dad, what was the car claimed to be by him when he sold it.

The owners claims are the ONLY ONES that are relevant to the history of the car. The ONLY people with a right to challenge these people about the present or past representation are people who own/owned the car and have lost due to a false claim by one or more of them.

In short the one person who might be the ONLY ONE responsible for the erroneous history of this car turning from an errant opinion held by Adams into an actual, overt case of fraud, may very well be the man who raised YOU.

As such, the obvious conflict of interest this creates would leave you as pretty much disqualified to voice an opinion, "of merit", and would leave Adams, Mecum etc. no reason to be interested in it, well.... at all.

It SEEMS your goal here is to undo a crime your father committed, without actually admitting he committed a crime or exposing him to any liability for his criminal actions. That you now want to hold others responsible for correcting an issue who's genesis is with YOUR family.

Appologies if untrue. And you can clear it up right here. NCRS or Adams did nothing wrong. The ONLY person who did was the 1st person to SELL the car as an "Al headed 315hp car".

That's the ONLY person who did something "wrong"(Invented history and sold it to Adams).

Who do YOU say this criminal was?

If not your dad, who? Skip Mecum, Adams, NCRS and all the rest. That's the ONLY person you have an issue with- the 1st person to increase the value of the car by including the false history of the Al head.

Vega$Vette

The OP for whatever reason chooses to ignore this fact.

The bidders contract you sign states it up, down and sideways.

Does the OP know that ALL sellers of just about everything in the world exaggerate to some extent.

That's the way it is and that's the way it has been since to dawn of man.

He says they didn't know about about the accident?? Well now that does know has he gone back to the buyer and offered restitution.

I'll bet when his family sold it they were asked if it had ever been in an accident. So by his logic even if he didn't know it was still a lie when they said no. To be perfectly honest they should have said "I don't know"

I'll bet there is some attorney that could convince a judge he should have known,

Now I hope he's prepared for this. There is no Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny either.

What is it about the concept of "Buyer Beware" is is not grasping?

62Jeff

I am fortunate enough to own several corvettes and even a high end luxury GT convertible.

In spite of this, large numbers of scantily-clad women do not throw themselves at me on a daily basis.

I demand car makers, advertising agencies, and women in general answer to me for the lies they have clearly perpetuated surrounding the allure of sports cars.

neal_c60

Whoa whoa whoa......

Back the truck up.....


And the OP is worried about aluminium heads??

This will be my 1st summer driving a vette....

Tell me your pants were ablaze as you typed that.

Please?:o