1963 LSx Project
05-30-2012, 11:03 AM
#21
Team Owner
Tom,
Here's a link:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#rod-ends/=hmyg56
Look at the first picture listed under Clevis styles - I then cut and threaded a standard rod for a 64-67 set-up, I can't recall which, but one set of years for different engine applications is longer and I believe it's the longer one I cut and threaded 3/8"-24
I made brass "thrust washers" that fit on each side of the z-bar conection to adjust the side to side "float", relative to the space inside the clevis rod end (you need some side to side angularity ability).. Originally I was going to use a spherical rod end on each side (like sold in some kits), but played with this idea first before cutting the clutch fork (I didn't like the look/final product of the extra brackets I've seen on the kits that are sold) - the clevis rod end, when "bushed" with thrust washers, tightens the movement up significantly, without having to do anything different on the clutch fork side and it's a perfect straight application of force without any side loading, like when you have something only attached on one side or the other of the z-bar..
Hope this helps,
Rich
Here's a link:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#rod-ends/=hmyg56
Look at the first picture listed under Clevis styles - I then cut and threaded a standard rod for a 64-67 set-up, I can't recall which, but one set of years for different engine applications is longer and I believe it's the longer one I cut and threaded 3/8"-24
I made brass "thrust washers" that fit on each side of the z-bar conection to adjust the side to side "float", relative to the space inside the clevis rod end (you need some side to side angularity ability).. Originally I was going to use a spherical rod end on each side (like sold in some kits), but played with this idea first before cutting the clutch fork (I didn't like the look/final product of the extra brackets I've seen on the kits that are sold) - the clevis rod end, when "bushed" with thrust washers, tightens the movement up significantly, without having to do anything different on the clutch fork side and it's a perfect straight application of force without any side loading, like when you have something only attached on one side or the other of the z-bar..
Hope this helps,
Rich
05-30-2012, 07:18 PM
#24
Racer
Thread Starter
Hello again,
This next post won't be as much related to the LSx stuff, but just a few things I learned on the body that might help some people..
First thing was getting the paint off.. My car was apparently painted in the early 70's, the paint was old, so this might not work on everything.. On the top surfaces the paint was "weaker" then that of the paint on side surfaces, but I found if I took Scott blue shop wipes and layed them on the panels and then sprayed the wipes with Acetone and kept it wet as it eveoporated, the paint would lift and separate to the point that with a DULL three inch wide putty knife I could pull the putty knife towards me and the paint and primer would peel off with some pressure. Sometimes it took numerous applications, but eventually it would all come off.. On the side surfaces I scuffed the surface with a DA first to break the top some and provide a path for the Acetone to soak in, wetted the wipes and stuck them to the surface. I'm thinking it only took two weekend to strip basically the whole car.. I still got the whole body plastic media blasted, but the work that I did made that a much safer operation..
Here's a few pictures of that as well as a later picture of a slightly different designed body cart I made, where the picture has dimensions in the picture.. The end supports have offset top plates for thru bolts, while the center four have homemade captured nuts under the welded top plate.. The whole body mounts SOLID to the cart just like it would the frame, which allows you to do anything you want, without worry of movement and flex.. The struture was 275 pounds without the caster weight...
Thanks,
Rich
"Did you make your own pivot ball, or use something like the one from SDPC?" -- I made my own, here is a picture on the mock-up block...
This next post won't be as much related to the LSx stuff, but just a few things I learned on the body that might help some people..
First thing was getting the paint off.. My car was apparently painted in the early 70's, the paint was old, so this might not work on everything.. On the top surfaces the paint was "weaker" then that of the paint on side surfaces, but I found if I took Scott blue shop wipes and layed them on the panels and then sprayed the wipes with Acetone and kept it wet as it eveoporated, the paint would lift and separate to the point that with a DULL three inch wide putty knife I could pull the putty knife towards me and the paint and primer would peel off with some pressure. Sometimes it took numerous applications, but eventually it would all come off.. On the side surfaces I scuffed the surface with a DA first to break the top some and provide a path for the Acetone to soak in, wetted the wipes and stuck them to the surface. I'm thinking it only took two weekend to strip basically the whole car.. I still got the whole body plastic media blasted, but the work that I did made that a much safer operation..
Here's a few pictures of that as well as a later picture of a slightly different designed body cart I made, where the picture has dimensions in the picture.. The end supports have offset top plates for thru bolts, while the center four have homemade captured nuts under the welded top plate.. The whole body mounts SOLID to the cart just like it would the frame, which allows you to do anything you want, without worry of movement and flex.. The struture was 275 pounds without the caster weight...
Thanks,
Rich
"Did you make your own pivot ball, or use something like the one from SDPC?" -- I made my own, here is a picture on the mock-up block...
06-03-2012, 09:43 AM
#25
Racer
Thread Starter
Hello Again,
I'm not thinking there is anything else special about the body other than hours and hours of prep, but I knew I'd be lifting the body on and off the frame several times and I wanted a secure way of holding everything from twisting in any direction while doing trial fitments..
The rear seemed pretty simple - inside the rear wheel wells are thick plates where the latches for the deck lid are thru bolted. With some light fabrication I made some brackets that bolted to those and allowed bolting of a cross-member between the two..
I looked at where to tie things into the front quite a bit before deciding to use the wiper arm plate and holes to use as the spot and fabricated some brackets to bolt thru those holes - tying those together wasn't needed because the window frame basically does that since they are tied right into that and so close to it..
I made some connecting bars with adjustable rod ends, positioned at an angle, to tie the front to the rear..
The body can be picked up and moved all over the place without any movement or twisting - the door alignment (no latches) stays perfect with the body hanging from the ceiling... Might be overkill, but it's nice not having to worry about the body flexing any...
Additionally, with the front window out, I use two separate length straps with hooks on the ends to catch the front and rear door support channels for a paint damage-free lift...
Hope these help someone - next time I'll start to post more on the chassis/engine progression...
Thanks,
Rich
I'm not thinking there is anything else special about the body other than hours and hours of prep, but I knew I'd be lifting the body on and off the frame several times and I wanted a secure way of holding everything from twisting in any direction while doing trial fitments..
The rear seemed pretty simple - inside the rear wheel wells are thick plates where the latches for the deck lid are thru bolted. With some light fabrication I made some brackets that bolted to those and allowed bolting of a cross-member between the two..
I looked at where to tie things into the front quite a bit before deciding to use the wiper arm plate and holes to use as the spot and fabricated some brackets to bolt thru those holes - tying those together wasn't needed because the window frame basically does that since they are tied right into that and so close to it..
I made some connecting bars with adjustable rod ends, positioned at an angle, to tie the front to the rear..
The body can be picked up and moved all over the place without any movement or twisting - the door alignment (no latches) stays perfect with the body hanging from the ceiling... Might be overkill, but it's nice not having to worry about the body flexing any...
Additionally, with the front window out, I use two separate length straps with hooks on the ends to catch the front and rear door support channels for a paint damage-free lift...
Hope these help someone - next time I'll start to post more on the chassis/engine progression...
Thanks,
Rich
06-03-2012, 12:22 PM
#27
Racer
Thread Starter
Sorry, not my hinges, check with Mr. Wizzard - I did, however, come across his web site with his build information before - very nice build up!
Thanks,
Rich
Thanks,
Rich
10-08-2012, 07:34 PM
#29
Racer
Thread Starter
Hello Everyone,
Seems it's been awhile, so I'll try to catch up on some details of my build and get caught up to where I am today (a few weeks away from final paint!!!!)...
I mentioned that I would talk about the chassis next.. I think I've mentioned/pictured most major things before, but I'll try to list out things I changed and/or modified relative to how it was shipped...
CHASSIS...
1. Added the rear exhaust pass-thru doughnuts. Without those I'd of never got a full 3" system tucked up like it is. The early '63 seat depressions made things extra tight, really leaving me little option to get the end result I wanted...
2. Lower front shock bolts - No picture but you can easily drill the lower control arms out to accept a 3/8 ARP 12 point style bolt, without having to change the counterbore at all. The end result is a much stronger, better fitting bolt to the slots in the shock. The 5/16 bolt originally used/shipped fits okay in the control arms, but is quite loose in the shock...
3. I was very careful checking my drive shaft u-joint angles.. With the tight 3" exhaust planned, I couldn't afford to end up with vibrations that would require getting the angles better after everything was complete. This actually required a fair amount of work to get equal, but oposite angles on the u-joints. If I was to do it again, I'd play with the front engine mounts, as it was I played with the rear center section some. Things are tight in these LSX conversions as it is, I highly suggest making sure angles are good very early in the process...
4. My engine mount plates weren't countersunk deep enough to have the bolts sit flush, the engine mounts wouldn't/didn't sit flat on the plates as a result - easy fix, but keep in mind SAE bolts use a different angle than that of metric bolts.
BRAKES...
I really have always liked the stock PSB rear calipers with the parking brake built in.. I didn't like that you couldn't get the calipers new anymore.. As luck would have it I found two brand new ones on ebay (and then a spare) for only $100 for the pair, they were in Australia, which was another $100 for shipping, but it was still a good deal.. Baer was having a special on the front 13" brake package and rear 13" rotors to match - all together I only have $1000 in the whole package, all brand new parts...
Now this is hard to explain, but the Baer rear adapters use button head allen screws with one that is faced off quite a bit for clearance.. It's all but impossible to torque that bolt, the tiny depth of the allen head just distorts - after many attempts and many duplicated custom bolts (making myself after both originals got messed up) the threads in the aluminum couldn't take it anymore.. I'm actually glad it happened, it made me realize I could press normal wheel studs into the original caliper mount and use nuts to, very securely, attach the Baer brackets.. If you ever use these, I'd recommend the same..
Now I had 13" brakes, but my 16" junk wheels/tires wouldn't fit to roll things around any more - Again, something good came of that, with a little work I fab'd up some plates that mounted to existing holes and got some casters on the whole assembly.. An additional bonus was the weight was still completely on the suspension AND now tires could be put on and off to check body clearance, including turning!
CATCH CAN...
Read a lot about oil ingestion and saw it first hand on a friends LS3, so I decided to add a can.. Made a stainless mount and got it installed...
WIRING...
Used Tech-Flex covering and LOVE the stuff - hard to get a good picture, but this is all you see from the top of the engine...
Sorry, just don't have a good clear picture of the top side, but basically the injectors, MAF, MAP, Throttle and temperature all run on the top and everything blends in where you really don't see anything.. My coils, as shown before (not connected here) are below the motor mounts..
You end up with a lot of wires at the back of the block, I designed a stainless steel cover to hide things better - with the engine in the car you won't see anything behind the block..
Still some loose ends on the back, but you get the general idea -- I have some extra covers if anyone is interested..
OIL LEVEL DIPSTICK...
Couldn't stand the long yellow piece - cut the orginal, expanded the end and then cut and painted the original stick..
CURRENT - TWO WEEKS AGO...
Well, the black guide coat was blocked off and a thin coat re-applied. I had all the body work done about two years ago so everything would "move" as it liked, shot a thin coat of black when done, so it would bake every summer day if I pushed it outside.. I think the plan was a good one, no worries of anything shrinking now..
I think I'm up to date, for the most part... Should have more body pictures soon, with a perfect black paint job!!!
Take care everyone!!
Rich
Seems it's been awhile, so I'll try to catch up on some details of my build and get caught up to where I am today (a few weeks away from final paint!!!!)...
I mentioned that I would talk about the chassis next.. I think I've mentioned/pictured most major things before, but I'll try to list out things I changed and/or modified relative to how it was shipped...
CHASSIS...
1. Added the rear exhaust pass-thru doughnuts. Without those I'd of never got a full 3" system tucked up like it is. The early '63 seat depressions made things extra tight, really leaving me little option to get the end result I wanted...
2. Lower front shock bolts - No picture but you can easily drill the lower control arms out to accept a 3/8 ARP 12 point style bolt, without having to change the counterbore at all. The end result is a much stronger, better fitting bolt to the slots in the shock. The 5/16 bolt originally used/shipped fits okay in the control arms, but is quite loose in the shock...
3. I was very careful checking my drive shaft u-joint angles.. With the tight 3" exhaust planned, I couldn't afford to end up with vibrations that would require getting the angles better after everything was complete. This actually required a fair amount of work to get equal, but oposite angles on the u-joints. If I was to do it again, I'd play with the front engine mounts, as it was I played with the rear center section some. Things are tight in these LSX conversions as it is, I highly suggest making sure angles are good very early in the process...
4. My engine mount plates weren't countersunk deep enough to have the bolts sit flush, the engine mounts wouldn't/didn't sit flat on the plates as a result - easy fix, but keep in mind SAE bolts use a different angle than that of metric bolts.
BRAKES...
I really have always liked the stock PSB rear calipers with the parking brake built in.. I didn't like that you couldn't get the calipers new anymore.. As luck would have it I found two brand new ones on ebay (and then a spare) for only $100 for the pair, they were in Australia, which was another $100 for shipping, but it was still a good deal.. Baer was having a special on the front 13" brake package and rear 13" rotors to match - all together I only have $1000 in the whole package, all brand new parts...
Now this is hard to explain, but the Baer rear adapters use button head allen screws with one that is faced off quite a bit for clearance.. It's all but impossible to torque that bolt, the tiny depth of the allen head just distorts - after many attempts and many duplicated custom bolts (making myself after both originals got messed up) the threads in the aluminum couldn't take it anymore.. I'm actually glad it happened, it made me realize I could press normal wheel studs into the original caliper mount and use nuts to, very securely, attach the Baer brackets.. If you ever use these, I'd recommend the same..
Now I had 13" brakes, but my 16" junk wheels/tires wouldn't fit to roll things around any more - Again, something good came of that, with a little work I fab'd up some plates that mounted to existing holes and got some casters on the whole assembly.. An additional bonus was the weight was still completely on the suspension AND now tires could be put on and off to check body clearance, including turning!
CATCH CAN...
Read a lot about oil ingestion and saw it first hand on a friends LS3, so I decided to add a can.. Made a stainless mount and got it installed...
WIRING...
Used Tech-Flex covering and LOVE the stuff - hard to get a good picture, but this is all you see from the top of the engine...
Sorry, just don't have a good clear picture of the top side, but basically the injectors, MAF, MAP, Throttle and temperature all run on the top and everything blends in where you really don't see anything.. My coils, as shown before (not connected here) are below the motor mounts..
You end up with a lot of wires at the back of the block, I designed a stainless steel cover to hide things better - with the engine in the car you won't see anything behind the block..
Still some loose ends on the back, but you get the general idea -- I have some extra covers if anyone is interested..
OIL LEVEL DIPSTICK...
Couldn't stand the long yellow piece - cut the orginal, expanded the end and then cut and painted the original stick..
CURRENT - TWO WEEKS AGO...
Well, the black guide coat was blocked off and a thin coat re-applied. I had all the body work done about two years ago so everything would "move" as it liked, shot a thin coat of black when done, so it would bake every summer day if I pushed it outside.. I think the plan was a good one, no worries of anything shrinking now..
I think I'm up to date, for the most part... Should have more body pictures soon, with a perfect black paint job!!!
Take care everyone!!
Rich
Last edited by Rzepka_r; 12-15-2012 at 05:53 PM. Reason: Edit End
10-08-2012, 08:21 PM
#32
Melting Slicks
Any issues shimming the body that much with bumper alignment? Maybe not with your custome chassis...
10-08-2012, 09:06 PM
#33
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks guys - should be having fun next summer!!
DucatiDon - To be honest I don't think I'm really that much higher than normal, the picture in this thread is misleading, those spacers aren't what I ended up with.. I'm thinking I'm three or four shims above normal, if normal is three or four shims to begin with... I planned on selling my original 1963 rear bumper brackets anyhow and I didn't get any fronts with the car - I would rather make my own, regardless of where the body sat/sits.. If I had to do it all over again, as I mentioned, I would have dropped the engine lower, which would have made for better u-joint angles in a different way, but I think that would have changed what I could have done with exhaust.. I think 1963 tunnels are tight to begin with, making things more difficult with TKO-600 clearance regardless.. However, for the next build I've certainly learned a lot of things that I will get answers on 100% up-front with the chassis provider the next time: u-joint angles, how many shims you'll need to get into decent front alignment specifications, etc...
Take Care,
Rich
DucatiDon - To be honest I don't think I'm really that much higher than normal, the picture in this thread is misleading, those spacers aren't what I ended up with.. I'm thinking I'm three or four shims above normal, if normal is three or four shims to begin with... I planned on selling my original 1963 rear bumper brackets anyhow and I didn't get any fronts with the car - I would rather make my own, regardless of where the body sat/sits.. If I had to do it all over again, as I mentioned, I would have dropped the engine lower, which would have made for better u-joint angles in a different way, but I think that would have changed what I could have done with exhaust.. I think 1963 tunnels are tight to begin with, making things more difficult with TKO-600 clearance regardless.. However, for the next build I've certainly learned a lot of things that I will get answers on 100% up-front with the chassis provider the next time: u-joint angles, how many shims you'll need to get into decent front alignment specifications, etc...
Take Care,
Rich
10-08-2012, 09:15 PM
#34
Melting Slicks
Thanks.... My RS500 is rubbing the tunnel....Im going to try new rubber bushings first, then add a shim if necessary, but dont want to run into other issues...
10-12-2012, 12:23 PM
#35
Racer
Thread Starter
Hello Everyone,
Some items fresh out of the booth - body will be sprayed Saturday morning - next week is cut and buff everything...
Went with a satin finish underside and engine compartment -I didn't want the reflection off everything in the engine area - like they do in small rooms with mirrors to make them look larger, I didn't want that effect, I wanted the engine to sit in a very clean environment without the clutter that reflections might add.. Wheel wells were Raptor lined...
More pictures to come in the week to follow..
Thanks,
Rich
Some items fresh out of the booth - body will be sprayed Saturday morning - next week is cut and buff everything...
Went with a satin finish underside and engine compartment -I didn't want the reflection off everything in the engine area - like they do in small rooms with mirrors to make them look larger, I didn't want that effect, I wanted the engine to sit in a very clean environment without the clutter that reflections might add.. Wheel wells were Raptor lined...
More pictures to come in the week to follow..
Thanks,
Rich
10-12-2012, 01:05 PM
#36
Burning Brakes
Can never go wrong with Black!!
Looks great. It looks like you are getting close to finishing up this project!!! Congratulations!
Dan
________________
www.vetterodder.com
www.facebook.com/vetterodder
Looks great. It looks like you are getting close to finishing up this project!!! Congratulations!
Dan
________________
www.vetterodder.com
www.facebook.com/vetterodder
10-13-2012, 01:19 PM
#38
Racer
Thread Starter
Hello Everyone,
Body sprayed this morning, just finished last coat - things will start looking really sweet next week when pieces are back together and everything cut and buffed...
Have a good weekend!!
Rich
Body sprayed this morning, just finished last coat - things will start looking really sweet next week when pieces are back together and everything cut and buffed...
Have a good weekend!!
Rich
10-13-2012, 01:38 PM
#39
10-13-2012, 01:48 PM
#40
Hello Everyone,
I've posted a few times before (giving updates and posting some pictures) and I know I should start a thread that takes my project from day one until today, but I'm waiting until it's a little closer to done before starting a thread and having HUGE delays..
Should be going to paint soon, just finishing up some minor details...
During and after paint I'll start posting more pictures again -- Still planning out the interior, but I'm wanting to go with cut down C5 seats in black leather with a Harley cream stitch/accent color and I'll use that black leather and Harley cream accent through-out the interior, but I haven't decided how much cream and how much black I'll use where.. Where did people get their dash pads covered in leather with the accent stitching that I've seen? Any highly recomended places??
Thanks,
Rich
I've posted a few times before (giving updates and posting some pictures) and I know I should start a thread that takes my project from day one until today, but I'm waiting until it's a little closer to done before starting a thread and having HUGE delays..
Should be going to paint soon, just finishing up some minor details...
During and after paint I'll start posting more pictures again -- Still planning out the interior, but I'm wanting to go with cut down C5 seats in black leather with a Harley cream stitch/accent color and I'll use that black leather and Harley cream accent through-out the interior, but I haven't decided how much cream and how much black I'll use where.. Where did people get their dash pads covered in leather with the accent stitching that I've seen? Any highly recomended places??
Thanks,
Rich
Try some of the custom interior shops:
http://www.interiorsbyshannon.com
http://www.kristkustoms.com/gallery.html
http://proautointeriors.com/
