Viet Nam Vett

Your comments are welcome......
Ok Here's the deal..65 Cp.327 Z79 (350HP) cam..Eldelbrock Daul Quad Intake and daul quads. MSD 6al Cap Box MSD Tach Drive DistB. Timing and advancve set to stock. Clean Cooling system.

New Stewart Stage 2 Hi Flow water pump with special 160 degree thermo with hole drilled in top per Stewart spec for this pump. New BeCool small block Alim. Rad. New 7 blade Flyswater steel flexfan placed in shroud per spec. The fan shroud is sealed against the rad. with foam tape so all air has to enter through rad.

In the winter I have to block off part of the rad to get temp up fast or it will take 30 min. to come up. In normal driving at 80 to 85 degrees engine temp runs between 180 to 200 degrees. in traffic at idol for no longer then 5 to 10 min. it will go to about 210 degrees.

Now here's the Rant!!. The car was in a 4th of July parade, it was a very very hot day!! 100 degrees..Humidity about 90 %.. With in 15 min of crawling along the temp hit 240 degrees--peged the needle. I had to leave the parade. After I ran it down the road fo 5 min the temp came down.
Their was a 62 in front of me that never overheated and a 65 Behind me that didn't either. Both had stock cooling systems!!!

So I called BeCool and they said.... Well your problem is air flow at idol, you need to buy our special fan for $200.00 and the Brakets for $70.00 And our Thermo on/off switch for $70.00 that will solve your Problem..

Lets See That's $340.00 on top of $550.00 for the Rad Puls $250 For the Stewart pump and $20.00 for the Thermostat and $50.00 for the Fan.. So that's $870.00 so far now add $340.00 for the Electric fan Gack and we have a total of $1200.00 !!!!!!

Something's wrong here. Should I have just brought a stock Gm Rad from Dewitt's?? do any of you with BB or small blocks have a problem in super hot weather??? How hot does your motor do in very hot weather when idoling for short periods of or longer.

I assume that these cars when factory stock in the day should have been able to make it through hot days in traffic. How much more money do I have to throw at this cooling system to be able to idol in hot weather over 90 with out overheating.

All Comments Welcome Thanks.....

:mad :nopity


[Modified by Viet Nam Vett, 6:10 PM 7/9/2002]


[Modified by Viet Nam Vett, 11:15 PM 7/9/2002]

JL66REDCPE

VNV - Certainly sounds like a good reason to rant to me !!!!

My BB has had a overtemp at idle problem since the day I got it. Recently I posted an item on the forum and SWC Duke advised me of the amount of vacuum I had at idle and a different vacuum can. I changed the vacuum can and things seem to be much better. The engine certainly runs much much better at idle. The jury is still out on the temp situation however so far so good. I have a rebuilt stock water pump and new clutch fan sitting in the closet in my office also waiting to go on. Right now I am monitoring the situation. Like I said so far so good.

Now, I rode in Kid Again's 65 roadster around Ocean City on 7/3/02. It was real hot that day. We mostly idled around town. I dont think the temperature ever got above 180 the whole time we were out in the car. He is running an engine with quite a few mods and what seems like a ton of horsepower. IT NEVER WENT ABOVE 180 !!! I am sure he will see this post and comment. I dont remember if he had a becool or dewitt rad in the car.

achapman

Hey Mark,

I hear ya, my Vette doesn't go above 180* even on the hottest of days, and its about as stock as it gets. I do remember an article in Vette magazine about a guy that put a 383 stroker in his vette and wound up putting two 'pusher' fans with an override switch on the dash. I remember the cost was under $100 and he was very pleased with the outcome. He lived in Phoenix and on the hottest days he could manually turn on the fans and the temp stayed between 190 to 215 even on the hottest days... crawling.... I don't see anything that Be Cool is asking you to do, for a lot less $$$, that this guy didn't do... except for maybe using Water Wetter.... you know me... just my .02.... :smash:

Almost forgot. During a parade here last year one guy 'popped' his hood and claimed it made a big difference... tend to doubt it but I don't really know as I never tried it... :seeya


[Modified by achapman, 2:20 PM 7/9/2002]

Viet Nam Vett

Yeh John and Andy I hear ya. But what gets me is that BeCool is supposed to lower you water temp per their add.

What I want to know is why the stock Radiator is better then these aftermarket types. My Freind Rob,( John you know who I,m talking about)
has a 69 BB Convert. that never goes over 190. Their must be someting about the design of the stock alum. rad. that is special. I should't have to start stuffing fans and other gack in the cooling system if the after market guys are screeming "Ours is the best 'Better then stock").

Now I know some people with stock rads have had some overheating problems but from what I have heard it is not allways related to the rad. design, but other items that caused the overheat problem.

If I new for sure that if I went out an spent another $700 to $800 on a factory repro rad. that it would give me the cooling that I should have I would do it. I just don't know who to belive any more. There was a post on cooling system problem yesterday that Tom Dewitt replyied too. I sent him a emil message and I am waiting to hear from him. So now I am still up in the air about what to do.

I would like to hear from more people on this subject like the DUKE and 396 Rat and others with stock rads.

For once I would just like to buy something without having to buy something else to make it work the way it should in the first place!!
:mad

bcwaller

I agree that you should not need all the extras if your car is stock. Eveything you describe sounds perfect for a 327/350 car. Before it blew, the 327 in my car rarely ran hot. I had a flex fan with no shroud, and I ran it through the desert to Laughlin. When I went to Phoenix another year, it did start to get hot, but remember I had no shroud or sealing. I replaced the flex fan with a Flex-a-Lite Black Magic fan and did not have any overheating problems again - unless you count the overpressure when the engine went...

jerrybramlett

I thought of a couple of things you might consider.

I'm not familiar with the aftermarket flex fan you're using. I know GM still sells 17.5" diameter 7-blade fans to fit mid-years (for about $100) and a good fan clutch. Is it possible that your flex fan doesn't move as much air as a GM fixed fan mounted on a GM clutch?

A reproduction '66-7 a.c. air dam can be mounted on the top of your core support to keep air from passing over the radiator. However, I doubt this would make a difference when you're sitting still in traffic.

Engine tune is important. Are you absolutely certain you are getting vacuum advance at idle? How about the rest of your engine? Are you sure you don't have a tiny head gasket leak?

The Be Cool aluminum radiator is okay in my opinion, but I would be surprised if it had the cooling capacity of a DeWitt, Harrison, or even a Griffin. You might e-mail Tom DeWitt and ask him. He is a nice guy and will answer your questions.

Viet Nam Vett

Heh jerrybramlett,
Thanks for the reply.The Flex fan that I have is specially made on a seperate line by Flex Fan and takes a week to get. It has the same size fan blade tips if not larger then the stock Vette Clutch Fan. There are 7 of them mounted on a 1/4 inch thick pice of steel. This fan moves twice as much air as the stock fan and has no clutch. It's like a wind storm under the hood when this babies running and you can feel the suction through the rad.

The engine was checked and Vacume advance is working. No leakes anyware. She idols like a top at 750 RPM's and doesn't miss a beat.

So at this point I am looking at trashing the BeCool Rad as I have just done some research on the DeWitt Fcatory Repro that they sell. It turns out that the BeCool is approximitlly 85 squre inches less of cooling fin area and 1 inch less in area depth then the Dewitt. I think Zora new what he was doing when he designed this car. Back in 65 they didn't tell you to put a electric fan on your Vette when it overheated..

Regards.........


[Modified by Viet Nam Vett, 9:02 PM 7/9/2002]

SWCDuke

I recommend double checking your timing and ignition curve. If you have an aftermarket distributor, I doubt if your timing map is "stock". The OEM L-79 Delco vacuum can - "236" gave 16 degrees at eight inches, so it should be fully deployed at idle. The initial timing should be 10 nominal and in the range of 8-12, so the total checked with a timing light at idle and the vacuum can connected should be in the range 24-28 degrees, or maybe a few degrees higher depending on your idle speed since the centrifugal might start at just over 750 RPM. If you just put a timing light on the car and it isn't in this range or close to it your ignition map is wrong.

Centrifugal specs are 0@750, 15@1500, 30@5100.

The Echlin replacement for the OEM vacuum can is VC1810 marked "B28". Too little idle timing - the combination of intial and vacuum, will cause the car to run hot - absolutely, positively, guaranteed! Assuming the radiator is okay, you can add water wetter, a high flow pump, and a fan off an 18-wheeler that eats 50 HP at high revs, or you can just fix the timing map.

Duke


[Modified by SWCDuke, 1:08 PM 7/9/2002]

Viet Nam Vett

SWCDUKE you are the man.... It's really great to have you and the others on this forum. I will print your specs out and check them this week end.
The distb. is an MSD Pro Billet Tach Drive and was set up to factory timing specs. But I will check them against your expert recomendations.

Thanks again for your Expert Help.......Regards

SWCDuke

When new, SBs never overheated. BBs had a reputation of running hot once in a while, and they had less margin, so they were more sensitive to cooling system degradation. Over the years radiators clog up, and fan clutches go away, but if you refresh everthing to OEM as new configuration including the ignition map, you don't need to spent hundreds on aftermarket "fixes".

Let us know what you come up with. In the meantime, any one else who is having overheating problems should work on returning their cooling system to original design performance using OEM or equivalent replacement parts rather than trying to "re-engineer" the cooling system with aftermarket parts.

In particular, the ignition map should be matched to the characteristics of the engine, and if you have a SHP engine or an aftermarket high performance cam that idles at less than 15" you need the "236" or equivalent vacuum can.

Duke

64BB

before you spend a ton of hard earned dough, at least check those temps with an IR gun. it sounds like you are relying on the gauge, which is a dubious proposition at best. good luck.

67435animal

My 435 has been running 180-190 in city driving. Hits 205-210 at 70 (3800 rpm - 4:11). At idle if I let it sit it will run up to 210 and stay there. Completely stock system with recored radiator (original), original rebuilt waterpump, original fan, new GM fan clutch, and new repro fan shroud (the original was beyond saving).

Before I did all this, I ran up to 240, puked whenever I parked it.

I am one happy camper. :D

Viet Nam Vett

Heh 64BB and SWCDUKE and 67435Animal,
Thanks for the Info. The water temp was checked with an IR gun to make sure the gauge was correct and it was. Also see my posts under Rant 2 the sequal. Don't want to Trash a fine co Like BeCool they do stand behind their products annd have a lot of happy customers. They were very helpful and answered all my questions when I was looking for a rad. So this problem is not their fault.

If there is any fault it's mine for rushing into the advertizments and hype.
Like the Duke says. Stock is the way to go. If it was good enough for Zora,
It's good enough for me. If it ant broke, don't fix it. ......... :flag

62fuelie

Before installing a NOS rad in my 62, I had a brass replacement with a 14" fan from the auto parts store. ($60). Ran cool as could be in 90+ deg temps.

Matt Gruber

does the MSD Pro B. have a vacuum advance? Can't set it to factory specs if it doesn't have the can! As Duke already pointed out, this is likely the problem.
You can test this without spending a dime! Just advance the timing for maximum rpm at idle, (temporary test only) and reset idle speed.
Don't drive it for this test (it will ping), just let it sit there at idle with a stopwatch and see if it overheats. :cheers:

JL66REDCPE

VNV - I guess I will chime back in again. The info Duke passed on to you is the same as what he passed on to me. I had little vacuum at idle and absolutely no advance at idle whatsoever. I put the Echelin B28 can on and voila -- what a difference !!! The can was under 10 bucks. You have to pull the distributor and then take it apart to install the new can -- no big deal. Also gives you a chance to re-lubricate the dist while you have it apart. You may not even have to take an MSD dist apart to change the cam. I tried the "setting the initial timing to max idle rpm" and it did help me detemine that the problem was idle advance before I pulled all the shielding and the distributor. THe biggest pain of the job is really puliing all the darn shielding. I bumped it up to 14-16 deg advance and the engine seemed to run cooler at idle. However, that would have put me very close if not over the margins on full advance.

The new vacuum can made a significant difference and that may also be your problem. What kind of vacuum are you pulling at idle and at what point (inches of vac) does you can start to come in ??


john lolli

INMYBLOOD

All very interesting. I think I will check mine over just to see. I also have a MSD billet and I can heat up in standing traffic. I don't loose water but the temp can get to 200-210. I have a stock type rad and shroud. I have an aftermarket fan but as big as I could get without hitting the shroud. It is a fly swatter type. I am pretty sure my slight problem is lack of effecient air flow. I will never get this fan/shoud/rad sealed. I tried some black foam between the huge shroud/rad gaps but it just fell or got sucked out. The fan is just so far from the rad :rolleyes: I have a pretty healthy cam so I am really interest in seeing what the timing curve is doing :yesnod:

Viet Nam Vett

Heh John,
When I installed the MSD Pro Billet Tach Drive a few years ago we set the timing and advance to Factory Specs. I'm pretty sure the total advance with the vacume hooked to the can was around what SWCDUKE stated at idol. The MSD Pro Billet does have a Vacume advance as well as meck. advance and all was set to factoty specs.

The car allways starts and runs through the RPM range smooth as silk and idols like a top. But I will recheck all settings to make sure. I did print out the specs that Duke listed in the former post's

This week end I should have the new rad from DeWitts that I ordered. I will first check all the settings before I remove the BeCool. Then I will install the DeWitts and check it out.

JL66REDCPE

I think I hear radiator liquid being drained, radiator hose clamp screws being loosened and radiator hold down bolts coming off already.

good luck

john lolli

achapman

So watcha got for sale..... :lol: :lol: :lol: